Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

HX_Guy wrote: »

Thank you sir.

Just checked and I get a 000 reading across each contact...so good to go right?

Yes, that's what you want to see.
Any Voltage reading would indicate resistance in the connection between the two points, which you do not want to see.

BB.

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Measure voltage drop when lots of current is flowing.

-Bill

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

BB. wrote: »

Measure voltage drop when lots of current is flowing.

-Bill

So basically when the system is at peak power? (seems to be around 11:45am on a sunny day here in Phoenix right now).
Of course with my luck, today is cloudy and currently raining. :grr

BB.

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Yep--Back to the basic Voltage=Current * Resistance.... No current, no voltage drop.

I would lean towards having it replaced (too bad you "fixed it"). No idea why the switch failed (weak materials, poor manufacturing, guy at store with a screw driver, returned by somebody else to store, etc.).

-Bill

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Well that went horrifyingly bad! But of course I'm not surprised. Not even as pissed as I should be really, I mean it was expected.

Basically just about every single thing I told them they needed to do, and they ignored me, was caught by the inspector and failed. Undersized wire...check. Undersized conduit...check. Exposed PV wires on the roof...check. The inspector actually didn't even catch everything, like incorrect labels or wrong color DC- wire...but the next one might (from what I heard, they kind of do it all over again from scratch when they come out again).

The inspector literally said "Well, at least the work in the attic was done right so that doesn't have to be redone." L O freaking L!



Oh, and I'm now the proud over of a rivet gun too! While waiting for the inspection, I asked the installer if we could secure the last sign on with rivets...he said it's not really needed, and he forgot his rivet gun, but it'll be fine. I didn't agree and went to Home Depot to pick one up and we secured it on the DC Disconnect. Unfortunately we missed a couple signs and that was tagged as well.





We also had the main breaker derated from 200A to 175A. The installer didn't have a torque wrench on him to put the new one back on, and I didn't have a 1/2" to 3/8" adapter for my torque wrench so everyone sat and looked at each other for a bit. Finally the inspector said if the APS (electric utility company) wants to tighten it down, then she's ok with it. It only required 22ft/lb, he said he's been doing this for 30 years and he's fine without a torque wrench. But just one fail after another.

Aguarancher

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

While I never try to deceive the inspector, I have been known to bait them with an easy fix for them to find. In your case they had a feast to chew on, no baiting necessary. I guess the good news is that they didn’t nick you on the covered vent pipe, yet. lol
Hope your installer gets you past the inspection next time and you get grid tied..

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I thought we'd have two choices here but I think there is only one.

First would have been to run new wire and conduit to match the permit, but the inverter will not accept anything bigger than 6AWG wire. An adapter would need to be used, which isn't shown on the permit, so that wouldn't pass either. So I think we need to resubmit a new permit that matches what's already been installed.

The only out would be if there are these terminal blocks that can be swapped out in the disconnect to accept bigger wire? Anyone know?

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

What a cluster &^%$! So I called the city to ask them what the procedure is if we need to make revision to the permit. $150 fee, resubmit new pages for only the pages that have changes, and 5 day turn around time...not too bad overall. That's the good news.

The bad news is that the city people are idiots and they don't understand how this SolarEdge system works, which is why the permit shows #2 wire. With a traditional system, once you take into account what the array amperage would be, and calculate for the 125% safety and then the temperature derate factor (.85 here), I guess a #2 wire would be necessary. That is only if you were to count each wire as "hot", which in a ungrounded system they are, but that's addressed in the next point. SolarEdge isn't a traditional system and the conductors will never have more than 34.5A running through them...the city for some reason doesn't understand or believe that.

So that means if we redo the permit, we need to also educate the city on how this system works, or appeal their decision until we get to someone who does understand.

Ok...so then stick to the permit right? Problem there again is that the inverter input will only accept #6 wire and SolarEdge is saying you absolutely cannot change out the terminal blocks as the whole assembly is UL listed in the configuration it came in. AWESOME! Honestly I'm not even sure how much that would come into play...there is no reason I can think of (but maybe some else can?) why it would be an issue to use a different terminal block aside that it wasn't tested by SolarEdge.

westbranch

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I would get a written statement from S.Edge as to what has been approved by UL, ie their terminal blocks etc etc etc, they must have the UL papers stating what is approved and what that entails ... educate the City folk and get them to tell you where this will go next.

Some where I think the UL approval supersedes the inspectors ruling, otherwise it is NOT approved by UL or the manufacturer anymore... warranty voided...

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I'm not 100% sure now if the city needs to be educated, if it even matters. I think the problem may be in how the permit was designed.
The whole issue stems from this page of the permit..



Zooming in specifically on this area here...



Now I'm not sure how the city would calculate it but the way the permit designer calculated it was:

35.8A (maximum output amps) X 125% (NEC safety buffer) = 44.75A per conductor
44.75A x 2 conductors = 89.5A
89.5A / 85% (temperature derate factor) = 105.29A

#2 wire is rated to 115A @ 75º C so there you go. The big mistake here is the PER CONDUCTOR which is completely wrong because even if they are both "hot", the inverter will never have more than 34.5A sent through the wires (that's a different spec, but it's close enough to the 35.8A on the permit that the 35.8A could be left alone on there).

Now that's something the permit designer did wrong, not that the city asked him for I don't think. The two "hot" wires are no wired in parallel so I don't know why they doubled the amperage for the calculation...each wire should be carrying at most 35.8A and even after all the NEC safety and temperature derating, the total would be 52A which is way below the 65A rating of #6 wire.

gww1

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

While I never try to deceive the inspector, I have been known to bait them with an easy fix for them to find. In your case they had a feast to chew on, no baiting necessary.

I used to rent houses to people on hud and I learned my lesson pretty quick. I had remodled a house from top to bottom and the inspector came in and found things like a spot wasn't painted behind a hot water heater in a hidden area. From that day forward I never did anything to a house till after they inspected. I also learned that the fixes they listed would usually be in the three to five hundred dollar range and this was with the nicest and the worst houses I owned. I am convinced that something will be found and put on paper when someones job is to inspect. They wouldn't be important enough to keep paying were that not the case, at least in their minds.

I know this doesn't help you and I wish you good luck.
gww

Photowhit

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I used WIL-ACCPV-1 Wiley Electronics SS wire clips on my array, works fine. I thought they had a UL stamp, but the photo here doesn't show it. There are at least 2 different sizes, one for USE-2 wire and one for the heavier solar connectors. I may have some to send you if you need USE-2 just have a few of the others and another array to install. Picked mine up in a going out of business sale, so paid next to nothing, just return the shipping... PM me if you need them. No post office until Tuesday for me though. Maybe Sat but unlikely.

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

It's dumb all right. Because the current on each of the two conductors is the same current! It flows in a circuit, which means it has to have a wire carrying to and a wire carrying from. Measure the current in both at the same time with a clamp-on meter and it will read as close to zero Amps as makes no difference.

I guess bozo the electrician didn't understand this.

Sorry that I have no idea how you can resolve this latest idiocy. You must be about ready to murder someone.

CDN_VT

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I JUST came from our Rural District Meeting on Solar & wind Turbines for Mid Van Island !

What was HX term ?"" What a cluster &^%$! So I c"

Im still reading the Bylaw they want to amend . Just Wow , NO Comprehension of any of this & they all know the interweb is "WORD"

Here is a two year ago brain fart:


We have the same minded ,TAX wasters here.
There number one job is to make sure they are employed & keep more below them so they have a job.

EG :
Regional Rural meeting of mostly dumb farmers ,(we grow our produce so you eat ) with rough hands , red necks in the summer.

Here we ARE TOLD !! that there will be compost collections from the RRD district supplied cans & buckets . This is all food waste , biodegradable crap etc.
WAIT , Not finished yet . They also said this pickup for paper , plastic recyclables is the green week , meaning your PAID for garbage collection is now cut in half ,too every other week !!!

Now hold on , not finished yet !!!
Glass is no longer to be recycled due to that areas on the trucks is where we will use for the compost storage . all glass is to be disposed of in the garbage(not green week) !!!

Now were all on Farm acreage , this is not implemented in the town /city / village's with sewer systems (garboraters) or apartment buildings NAWWW.
Frigging farm rural folks who don't use garbage disposal through your kitchen sink! that fills up the septic system , WE COMPOST !!

(REAL BAD WORD I USED for these Brain Farts ) give us these two plastic tubs & a rolling curbside can .

We have never used ours , many a farmer won't , we compost our's & burn the bones ETC. The Want-2-BE city farmer with clean clothes , soft hands has now got all of us up . Frigging bears , wolves , mountain lions are now curbside fed . Then the kids are no longer safe waiting for the school buss due to critters might get them ..

Who-DA-Thunk
Part 2 coming on the Bylaw on recyclable power (that's the heading ) . And these folks Vote [4 themselves] .

There next blunder is all in the papers , but not as they implemented into law but has these effects you read about up here.



VT

solarix

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

The designer obviously doesn't understand the SolarEdge system. Contact me if you need help.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

solarix wrote: »

The designer obviously doesn't understand the SolarEdge system. Contact me if you need help.

Thanks Solarix. The designer is saying the city of Peoria isn't understanding SolarEdge and they basically forced them to design the permit this way.
Have you done any SolarEdge installs in Peoria?

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Well it looks like the permit is actually correct, I confirmed with SolarEdge.

Per the SolarEdge engineer, for the purposes of conductor gauge sizing, the maximum output current of the string needs to be used X the number of strings.
The maximum output is 15A for the optimizers, so the calculation is always 15A x Strings.

In the case of my permit that would be 60A, or 75A after NEC correction. The permit was submitted for rooftop conduit, which has a derate factor of 65%. 115A x 65% = 75A which means a 2AWG is in fact required, even per SolarEdge.

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I thought you said the output was ~34 Amps.
If you were ignoring two of the three strings in that number then that was a mistake. Maybe the info was written wrong? As in "per conductor" should have been "per string of PV"? Too often the people who write up manuals either don't understand the engineering or don't understand proper English. Sometimes both.

If the output of the combiner is 12,400 Watts @ 350 Volts then that is 35 Amps, and there's no reason to use 100 Amp wire to handle it. 15 Amps may be the maximum output of the optimizers, but if they haven't got the equivalent power going in then it is irrelevant. PV is self-limiting in current; Isc * extra insolation factor is it. Period. No resistance lower than a short circuit. Moreover if the wiring is protected by fuse/breaker any incidence of unexpected excess current will be dealt with before the wire is in danger.

But since morons rule the world is sounds like you have to strip out wire and conduit and replace it all with over-sized stuff that will cost you more than you need to spend.

This project stopped being viable how many changes ago?

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

I thought you said the output was ~34 Amps.
If you were ignoring two of the three strings in that number then that was a mistake. Maybe the info was written wrong? As in "per conductor" should have been "per string of PV"? Too often the people who write up manuals either don't understand the engineering or don't understand proper English. Sometimes both.

If the output of the combiner is 12,400 Watts @ 350 Volts then that is 35 Amps, and there's no reason to use 100 Amp wire to handle it. 15 Amps may be the maximum output of the optimizers, but if they haven't got the equivalent power going in then it is irrelevant. PV is self-limiting in current; Isc * extra insolation factor is it. Period. No resistance lower than a short circuit. Moreover if the wiring is protected by fuse/breaker any incidence of unexpected excess current will be dealt with before the wire is in danger.

But since morons rule the world is sounds like you have to strip out wire and conduit and replace it all with over-sized stuff that will cost you more than you need to spend.

This project stopped being viable how many changes ago?

Cariboocoot, the nominal amp rating is 34.5A, that figure is correct.

However for conductor sizing, the city...and SolarEdge agrees, the maximum string current output needs to be used in case of a fault in the system. The 34.5A is good, if the system is working properly as intended, but if something goes wrong, then the maximum number needs to be accounted for is what I'm being told by both parties.

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

HX_Guy wrote: »

Cariboocoot, the nominal amp rating is 34.5A, that figure is correct.

However for conductor sizing, the city...and SolarEdge agrees, the maximum string current output needs to be used in case of a fault in the system. The 34.5A is good, if the system is working properly as intended, but if something goes wrong, then the maximum number needs to be accounted for is what I'm being told by both parties.

That's what circuit breakers are for: to trip before the wire fries.

The reasoning being used here is like saying you have a combiner box with six 15 Amp breakers in it so the wiring from that to the charge controller or GTI must be able to handle 90 Amps, despite the fact the six PV strings on the input at short-circuit may only put out, say, 42 Amps. Which do you think is the right figure to use?

But as usual reality takes a back seat to bureaucracy and pig-headed idiots.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Oh I agree with you, but it's hard to make that argument when now even SolarEdge is in agreement with the City that it needs to be sized as if circuit breakers aren't even being used.

Also to note, not sure if it has any significance, that the breaker size recommended by SolarEdge in their installation manual is 20A based on max output of 15A per string (15A x 1.25 = 18.75A). Does that play a role at all in the sizing of the conductor?

Cariboocoot

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

HX_Guy wrote: »

Oh I agree with you, but it's hard to make that argument when now even SolarEdge is in agreement with the City that it needs to be sized as if circuit breakers aren't even being used.

Also to note, not sure if it has any significance, that the breaker size recommended by SolarEdge in their installation manual is 20A based on max output of 15A per string (15A x 1.25 = 18.75A). Does that play a role at all in the sizing of the conductor?

Only in that the conductor must be able to handle more current than the breaker.

Unfortunately too many people think breaker size = current on line. That's roughly the same as saying because you plug a 500mW load into a 15 Amp house circuit the 500mW load draws 15 Amps.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Are you kidding me??

I was up on the roof making a change to the DC combiner box and while working on it, by accident I notice...*** did that wire just move? Oh yea...a freaking wire that's supposed to be crimped tight just slid right out of the connector! A wire that has up to 500V going through it. This is a connector that the genius installer crimped together with a plier, instead of the proper MC4 connector crimper that costs a whopping $35 on Amazon! How the hell is this guy licensed and in business?!?

BB.

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Sigh....

The "real" MC4 crimping tools are probably 10x that amount or so... But, probably do better than that guy did. Make him cut/recrimp all the connections? Call the building inspector?

I believe the "correct crimp tool" actually micro stamps the crimp (I think, or shape of the crimp).

-Bill

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Yeah I know there are much more expensive tool but for a one-time type of use, I imagine something like his will do the job...at least much better than some pliers.

http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-Crimping-Crimper-2-5-6mm2-Connector/dp/B00FWNVW0W

The ones that are 10x the cost probably last 10x as long too, but that's not what I'm looking for.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I'm trying to come up with a letter to write this guy and can't even think straight Im so frustrated and pissed.

I don't even know what the hell to threaten him with. An attorney? Canceling all payments??

This is what I've written so far...I don't even know if there's even a reason to send it, do I even want this guy on my property again? Any suggestions?

I am at my wits end with this project. I have never seen such incompetence from any company in my life.
This project has dragged on for months, the permit was submitted 5 months ago and approved 2 months ago and the install is still not complete. I pleaded multiple times to JUST FOLLOW THE PERMIT, both over text and in person and you constantly either ignored me or said “it’ll be fine”. Why was it so difficult to just look at the permit and do what is specified?

I question the complete safety and integrity of the install. Just earlier today I was working on reconfiguring the combiner box (both DC+ and DC- require fusing per the permit) and one of the wires you crimped to the MC4 connector just slid out with almost zero pressure on it. How do I trust that the rest of the connectors are solid?

I am done waiting and having everything done and redone incorrectly. Someone needs to come out tomorrow (Tuesday 01/20/15) to correctly fix all the issues specified by the inspector and the inspection passed at first availability from the City of Peoria or I am contacting the Arizona Registrar of Contractors about your license, Value Card about reversing all payments made to you and an attorney if needed.

BB.

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Talk with the Inspector? If they revoke/don't sign-off--You have a good reason not to pay.

Otherwise, it can be difficult to "correctly" deal with payments and a contractor. They can (and many will) simply slap a mechanic's lean on the property and sit back waiting for your to pay (or possibly sue).

Each state/contractor licensing board has their own set of rules--You sort of started down the road earlier in this thread--Other than fixing the problems yourself, what did you find out?

-Bill

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I've already paid him, I don't owe him anything further at this point. But the funds can be reversed, already talked to the payment company about it.

I didn't look too much into what my options are previously since he ended up showing up and doing work, of course incorrectly.
I need to see what he replies with to the email I sent him before I can decide how to proceed.

westbranch

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Up here there is an automatic 10% holdback on major contracts, for a variety of reasons, that is paid out 90 days after "substantial completion". I would believe that that crimp does NOT meet substantial (implies adequate) completion... talk to your BBB

CDN_VT

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

BBB is a JOKE !!!
Were talking greater that 10 G / K . BBB is a for profit business paid for whatever. Have had meetings with them in my JOB for a MAJOR company .. I think Yelp took them to another level
That non crimped MC4 connector has opened a can of each one plus the other two in the pix are not installed correctly . Your opening all of this up again , EVERY one to check .
My crimpers are a set worth 2g plus with removal tools . I have a tool fetish slightly , just ask the wife !!

Glad you have take pictures , copy all of this thread /s & get a Lawyer .
Problem is your money is gone , make sure Snake/Lawyer will NEVER charge you the Snakes food.

Like BB said Call the Inspector / try .

Glad you posted this thread .

Not that anyone (AND ME) is correct & perfect , this shows mistakes of what should be checked & not done.

VT

Some of my comments are from sitting in court as a paid tech .
(Tech) means I work. & still Luv it .