Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

HX_Guy

As you guys probably saw in my other thread, my installer seemed to be pretty lazy/cutting corners from the start. It has only gotten much worse and now I'm in the thick of this and not really sure what my options are.

I'm not even sure if what he is doing is correct and or legal. A few things...

He is completely not following what we agreed on for the system design or what was approved on the permit.
We agreed on a layout that was mostly landscape panels in a particular arrangement, and he completely changed it without notice.
In changing this, he did not follow the fire setback code at all (which is 3' from the ridge, and that what is shown on the permit). There are spots where he left 0 setback and others where he left 2'.

He is not using the wire gauge specified on the permit, which calls for 4AWG. He is using 6AWG and 8AWG. Also not using the specified conduit thickness, which affect the fill and that was approved for a certain amount.

The permit calls for 6"x2"x2" posts for the racking with flashing and sealant. He used only lag bolts, directly through the tile and through the paper and caulked both with silicon, no flashing of any kind. The racks feels flimsy, they easily shake if you move them...can just lag bolts hold up hundreds of pounds of panels?

So now what I'm not sure. How he expects this to pass inspection I have no idea, especially the wire thickness which can easily be checked by an inspector or especially the fire setback.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

This is how the racking layout was approved on the permit.


This is how it was installed

BB.

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Tell your inspector about the issues... Have him tell the contractor to fix it (if it looks like the inspector does not care).

Some inspectors will work hard and correct the contractors. Others, you have to "use" them to your ends, or they will just sign the permit.

-Bill

ZoNiE

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

X2, Call the inspector to come out immediately. His job is to protect you.


I see Crappy flex conduit, messy layout, plenty of places for chafed wires.


Tile roof, you in Phoenix area? Please share the name of this guy so we can avoid him.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

BB. wrote: »

Tell your inspector about the issues... Have him tell the contractor to fix it (if it looks like the inspector does not care).

Some inspectors will work hard and correct the contractors. Others, you have to "use" them to your ends, or they will just sign the permit.

-Bill

Do I keep going forward though? Should I even trust this installer to fix anything if he couldn't do it right the first time?

One other thing I didn't mention is that he doesn't have the panels. On Monday, he literally said he has them on hand and was suppose to start putting them up today. The. This morning said he is waiting on he delivery truck which should arrive any time. By the time he left in the afternoon, he said the panels are waiting to clear customs!

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

ZoNiE wrote: »

X2, Call the inspector to come out immediately. His job is to protect you.


I see Crappy flex conduit, messy layout, plenty of places for chafed wires.


Tile roof, you in Phoenix area? Please share the name of this guy so we can avoid him.

Will the inspector come out if I request it before the job is complete?

Anyone have some input on those lag screws used as railing posts with silicon? Is that actually ok, if not prefered?

ZoNiE

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Depends on the city. If you tell them that you want them to come out and give your concerns, they probably will.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

ZoNiE wrote: »

Depends on the city. If you tell them that you want them to come out and give your concerns, they probably will.

Good idea thanks, I'm in Peoria, AZ.

westbranch

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

IIRC you had a bunch of hoops to go through to get the permit...Am I right? If so then you inform them that the installer is not following the plan they APPROVED. That should ignite a fire if they really do want him/you to follow that plan to the letter...

Good luck with the contractor.

ps Is there a BBB in your area?

BB.

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

If there is Contractor Licensing in your state--May be a better place to start than BBB.

-Bill

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

westbranch wrote: »

IIRC you had a bunch of hoops to go through to get the permit...Am I right? If so then you inform them that the installer is not following the plan they APPROVED. That should ignite a fire if they really do want him/you to follow that plan to the letter...

Good luck with the contractor.

ps Is there a BBB in your area?

Yes, the permit was denied twice before finally being approved. The permit was done by a 3rd party company however, not by the installer.

We do have BBB here, I don't think the guy cares, he already has a terrible rating. I know the question is why did I even go forward with them. I actually contacted 5 people who had work done by them and had all had positive things to say, but who knows how well their jobs were done, they may not know how crappy it is.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

BB. wrote: »

If there is Contractor Licensing in your state--May be a better place to start than BBB.

-Bill

Yes, and they are licensed, they have an ROC number. I'll see about contacting the Registar of Contractors.

solar_dave

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

HX_Guy wrote: »

Good idea thanks, I'm in Peoria, AZ.

If they are like Glendale, AZ at all they will be out in a flash. Glendale's electrical inspector made 3 trips out and red tagged it twice for minor things that didn't quite meet code, mostly simple grounding lug issues. All the wire gauge was checked by them as well. I assume APS, they might also have issues with the quality of the work.

If the permit shows in the drawings the racking done differently than the draw specs, he will be fixing that for sure. Glendale made a structural engineer sign off on the drawings and they sent a separate inspector to check out the mounting. Mine was in before they instituted the fire set back for the ridge, but if it had been in effect they would red tag for that as well.

I hate that flex out here in AZ, I paid another electrician to redo mine with all hard conduit properly bent and attached. The flex install was the cheapest connectors and the sun and heat just destroyed them after a couple summers. Here is a thread about that: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?11883-Before-and-After

Call the permitting department first thing in the AM, bet they are there before noon.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

solar_dave wrote: »

If they are like Glendale, AZ at all they will be out in a flash. Glendale's electrical inspector made 3 trips out and red tagged it twice for minor things that didn't quite meet code, mostly simple grounding lug issues. All the wire gauge was checked by them as well. I assume APS, they might also have issues with the quality of the work.

If the permit shows in the drawings the racking done differently than the draw specs, he will be fixing that for sure. Glendale made a structural engineer sign off on the drawings and they sent a separate inspector to check out the mounting. Mine was in before they instituted the fire set back for the ridge, but if it had been in effect they would red tag for that as well.

I hate that flex out here in AZ, I paid another electrician to redo mine with all hard conduit properly bent and attached. The flex install was the cheapest connectors and the sun and heat just destroyed them after a couple summers. Here is a thread about that: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?11883-Before-and-After

Call the permitting department first thing in the AM, bet they are there before noon.

I've heard that Peoria's inspectors are super strict, and I'm sure if I happen to also bring all the problems to their attention, they will look at everything even closer.

My dilemma at this point is how to handle it. Im thinking my two choices are to call him up and say "You need to follow the permit plans to the letter and also fix my roof, which needs to be done by a licensed roofer" or tell him to "Never step foot on my property again and he will not be getting a dollar from me." I'm not sure what my rights are there though, am I entitled to keep the parts already in place (racking and disconnects - the inverter and optimizers I purchased on my own not from him)? Who pays to fix my roof now on a brand new house?

solarix

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

The mounting posts would worry me too. Either needs to flash those penetrations with something like QuickMount's tile system or use something like ProSolar's TileTrac to make a secure, insurable mount. Non-metallic flex conduit (ENT) is not listed for exterior exposure - it will deteriorate in the Phoenix sun for sure. Those posts will stiffen up a lot though, once you have the PV panels on tying them together. Those look like IronRidge rails - make sure they are going to use the new Integrated Grounding module clamps with them.
On the other hand - you have a difficult, chopped up tile roof that you are trying to put a large amount of panels on. It is almost impossible to fully plan out the layout in advance and it is not uncommon to have to rearrange things some. Using the SolarEdge system is a good idea given all the different orientations - however, as long as shading is not a problem, I still would recommend an SMA inverter (they have a 7.7kW size now) as putting any electronics (SolarEdge optimizers) on a super hot Phoenix roof is asking for trouble.
I'm not aware that Peoria has adopted the 2014 NEC yet (which incorporates the 2012 IFC standard) - so the fire setback (solar killing) is not required (some California cities have been doing it earlier though).
Those plastic wire ties will last about a year in Phoenix (even the good UV kind). Make them change to Wiley (or similar) wire clips.
I hate the DC conduit running around the eves. Looks like you know what.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Solarix: what is your thought on the lag bolts as posts? Have you seen that kind of installation before?
I really don't trust this installer to use anything they are "supposed to", like specific grounding clamps etc.
Peoria does require a fire setback for sure.

I do have a big shading issue from a 2 story house which is why we went with SolarEdge.

wellbuilt

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

As a builder a wade of splugee is not water proof at all . I WOULD HAVE THEM FIX THE PROBLEM .
As far as the contractor gos half way thru the job is not the time to qualify the guy .
Most important thing, how is the money ?
If the contractor is up on the payments that is not good for you .
I would talk to the contractor , You must have felt he was the man for the job at one point . If he is taking short cuts maybe they are with in industry standards, I don't know ?
As a contractor all the b/s on line about the right way / and wrong way of doing thing is just starting problems that don't really exist,( some times) I would not start a s--- storm with out talking to the owner of the company .
In new America delivery times don't seem to matter, and no one is held accountable or keeps there word, stuff comes in its own sweet time. I would feel better if your panels where on site . A contract is only as good as the parties that enter into it .
All my contracts state, so much work for so much money in payments , don't let the contractor get ahead of the money. Maybe to late , ( With a singed contract .)
A lot of the big solar company have sales men with O integrity, All they care about is making a sale. insist on talking to the owner. Luck

BB.

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

And get a roofer you trust to look at the installation too.

I have a roofer that does a fair amount of stripping and replacing solar panels arrays fixing leaks. At one point he even looked into installing solar power systems himself because he was doing so much work already.

-Bill

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I'm having another solar company come out to look at the installation and will contact the city's building department as well on Monday (they are closed Fridays) before I call the installer back. Might have a roofer come out too depending on what the other solar company says.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

solarix

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Well, the lags are ok as far as structurally, but waterproofing wise - good luck. I'd have my roofer come and do whatever he thinks is best despite whatever you can get the installer to do. Roof leaks are just too potentially a nightmare. People think the tile roof will keep them dry. All the tile does is protect the tar paper underneath - your real waterproof barrier is the tar paper and just sticking a lag screw through it with just a gob of goo ain't gonna do it. There is no easy way to properly fix these short of replacing the lags with a listed product like TileTrac or equivalent.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

The biggest issue I think with the roof is that the rails are in the wrong places, which means those lag bolts actually need to be removed completely and that will leave a hole there. So that needs to be patched...I assume a new square piece of tar paper goes on top and then some sort of tar/sealant to seal it down?

And since they have to be moved anyway, then the proper mounts should be used anyway.

The whole thing is pretty crazy because if I weren't so anal/OCD about stuff and needing to know things, I would have never gotten to even see a copy of the permit and I wouldn't have known that the installer is using different wiring than specified, or different mounts. I would still have known the layout was wrong (I designed the layout myself) and I would have known the roofing is wrong, at least the silicon since everything Ive seen online from other people's projects has flashing.

CDN_VT

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

My 2 bits !
Roof needs NEW tiles , No Patching allowed !! It's a New house & roof .
Tile roofs have special mountings for them because of the tile , metal , shingle all use a different mounting system .
Your Roof is more important than any panels , my neighbour who didn't replace his now has a ceiling falling down with a house restriction because of uninhabitable to live in till repaired.


JFI

VT

Photowhit

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

HX_Guy wrote: »

In my opinion, this is very ugly from an engineering stand point, first it looks like stainless bolted to the panel to aluminum and the 'bolt through the tile appears to be zinc coated bolt... is Stainless spec'd here?

Next there is no structure, a standing bolts with a nut on either side of the 'L' bracket is not structure, it's a little wobbly now and it WILL get worse as the steel wears on the aluminum.

Now for that bolt going through the tile... I would think the steel will just wear away at the tile over time. You speak of "Lag bolts' if this is a 'Hanger Bolt' with wood threads on one end and machine threads on the other It might be okay for code, but in Stainless so you don't have instant electrolysis between the aluminum and the steel and have things rusting with in a year. And you would have to have it directly into the joists with an engineers opinion, since I would think you would need them 3 inches into the joist for the load and pressures.

Hanger Bolts;
Attachment not found.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

They very well probably are hanger bolts, I didn't see the actual bolts.

I'm sure the installers defense will be that they are "fine" and honestly he never actually specified what kind of mounts were to be used, it's the permit design company that put in 6" posts in the plans but I don't know what the communication between them was. When I asked the installer about the permit showing 1" EMT piping and he used 3/4" liquidtight tubing, he said "yeah it's fine, they (the permit design company) just probably uses that as a default in their designs but it doesn't have to be like that, this (the liquidtight) will work just fine". And he might be right. Even the thinner gauge wires might be ok and within code, though I don't know how it would pass inspection if the inspector compares the permit 3-line drawing with the actual work performed.

The biggest blunder is the layout, which is also the hardest to fix. Changing from landscape to portrait without talking to me about it and putting panels in different spots plus not leaving the required fire setback...I don't know what he was thinking.

ramloui

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I'm a little late to this party but, if it were me, I would simply STOP WORK! I'm guessing the guy bid the job with the permitted plans and drawings so he can't say he didn't know. I would give him 2 options: redo the work according to the original plan on his own dime or get the current install approved by the inspector again on his own dime. And don't pay another cent until you have come to an agreed solution.
Good luck

westbranch

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Is there a requirement in the permit about an Engineer signing off on the installation. If there is, and if it is not to the specifications, he will not sign off on it (approve it).

CDN_VT

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

westbranch wrote: »

Is there a requirement in the permit about an Engineer signing off on the installation. If there is, and if it is not to the specifications, he will not sign off on it (approve it).

You hope there is NO "KICKBACKS "
Unlike up-here !!!

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

ramloui wrote: »

I'm a little late to this party but, if it were me, I would simply STOP WORK! I'm guessing the guy bid the job with the permitted plans and drawings so he can't say he didn't know. I would give him 2 options: redo the work according to the original plan on his own dime or get the current install approved by the inspector again on his own dime. And don't pay another cent until you have come to an agreed solution.
Good luck

Do I even trust him to redo the work though? He couldn't do it right the first time.

The current plan is not going to be approved guaranteed, at least not if the inspector is actually paying attention and I'll make sure he is by pointing things out (if it even got to that point). The fire setback thing is a pretty big deal and even if some inspector signed off on it because he didn't really care, I care. When we sell this house some day, maybe the new buyer wants to have everything inspected to make sure it's all good and sound and what if it isn't? I don't' want those kind of what-ifs int he future, it needs to be done by the book now.

ramloui

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

You are right, you can't trust him. But you have already hired the guy and given him money. So you are stuck with him. If he says he will make it right per the permitted plans, then you don't have a choice. But I would be shadowing him every minute. If he balks, then cut your losses and fire him.

Did you have a contract? Did it mention specifically the permitted plans and drawings? If yes, you are in a good position. If not, then...

Unfortunately, you are in a very bad situation that can only get better if you get heavily involved. It is your money (your home!!!!). In the end, you are responsible (stuck) for the outcome. If you can't be on his back, then you should consider hiring a trustworthy and knowledgeable person to supervise him.

I'm sorry for your pain. But inaction is not an option. It can only get worse. Again...good luck.

HX_Guy

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I do have a contract but the only thing specified in it are the panels to be used. The plans/layout is something we went back and forth on via emails.

I am reviewing the contract right now and the only thing mentioned about any sort of changes are that the installer may substitute the panels with a similar panel of equal or greater output. There is nothing else in there about changing the plans at will and without notice.

And speaking of which, it also says they are not responsible for damage caused by weather. That comes up because he installed all the optimizers on the racking already. Before he did, I asked him "These are no supposed to be out in the rain if they aren't connected" to which he said "We'll just plug them into themselves so it won't be a problem".
Guess what they didn't do? They left all the plugs just dangling and open. Luckily I went up there to verify and plugged them up myself, and it rained a day later. That would have been $2500+ in damages to replace all the optimizers.

Blackcherry04

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Well, your drawing looks good, but what you don't know how the drawing lined up with the Rafters and tile breaks on the roof. There could be a perfectly good reason the drawing wasn't followed.

For sake of argument some of the installers and people that post in here do not believe in flashing's, or don't use them and use the down and dirty L bracket / Lag bolt screw down method with a dab of sealant. Each and every roof penetration is expensive, some laugh when they hear $30-$50 per each, for flashings and standoff's and labor. Don't believe all that people post, ask how is theirs installed, you'll see a lot of wood frames.