Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

softdown · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

In Vegas, I think they tend to start construction at 6am and quit at 2pm. Phoenix, I believe, is even hotter.

As for using plastic in construction, I just don't get it. Do people think that we won't live another five years? I usually build stuff to last 100 years.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

They showed up today and stuff is actually getting done! All the rails are up (except for two, because they ran out of railing...a couple of guys on on their way to bring more). The optimizers are mounted, and some of the wiring is ran. They left to lunch while waiting for the guys to bring the railing, and those guys are going to...wait for it...help them with putting up all the panels today! Then tomorrow they are going to redo the conduit and finish up the electrical, can you believe it?!

I actually had a fear that he was going to jerry-rig some spliced connection for the wiring, but he used the proper MC4 connectors.

And surprise, he does actually have the right cable!

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Finally I rigged up the combiner box myself while they were working on other stuff. Luckily the L brackets lined up perfectly with the screw holes. On the bottom end I'll have a 1 1/4" metal conduit that will then 90º into the attic.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Can you believe it, we have panels up! They still managed some sloppiness but it can be fixed, I was up there most of the day but couldn't be there every minute supervising.

Panels ready to hoist up. This was actually much easier than I imagined, one guy was on ground level and should just lift it shoulder high and the guy on the roof would just grab it by the edges and lift it up.

Grounding...

Panels being installed...

And done...

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Now some of that sloppiness I was talking about, and maybe it's just me being way to anal, I don't know.

First the spacing left between rows of panels. All other installs I've seem the panels butt up against east other...but thinking about it maybe it's not so bad, better ventilation for the panels and it seams some walking access if a panel needs servicing.

This one though I caught and made them use the right claps. For some reason, they were using black end clamps, but silver mid clamps...and of course silver rails with silver frame panels. I mean really, you couldn't use silver end clamps too? I had actually ordered a bunch of silver ones and had them ready so they used the ones I had.

Next problem, panels were mounted too low and therefor the gutter is now useless in the courtyard.

Not just that, but the put the rails in uneven (top rail uses the bottom mount holes, bottom rail uses the bottom mount holes) which makes the panels not line up. Probably being too anal here but would it have been that hard to just do it right?

And finally again the lining up...would it have killed them to mount everything lined up instead of zig zag like this?[/b]

solarix · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I'm sorry - Its not your fault, and can't say the installer could have done much better, but these patchwork arrays look awful - but are really the fault of the architects and their chopped up roof designs.l

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

It's not even so much the architect but the damn south neighbor and his two story house. I tried to minimize as much as possible how many panels were in the middle section of the house to avoid his shading, which is mostly why the panels are all over the place.

Honestly though it doesn't really bother me. From the front of the house, and especially when you approach the house, you cannot see any of the panels at all. Only place you can really see them from the street is when you approach from the other end, but it's a cup-de-sac street so we never go past our house anyway. All the panels on the back side of the house you can't see unless you go way in the back of the yard and look back at the house.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Just finished making a 1" hole in the roof decking and piecing the parts together with this diagram to make sure I'm not missing anything. Looks like I have everything I need to get it all installed in the attic tomorrow. Now I have to get up into the attic space above the garage and make a second hole there.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Finished up for the night, drilled the second hole above the garage attic space and popped the conduit thru, worked out perfectly right next to the rafter so it can be secured with a clamp. Then fed the flexible conduit up through the hole in the garage wall and brought it over to the other conduit. I'm thinking I don't even need that other flex between the T body and this flex, I can just run the T body straight off the conduit through the roof deck, no?

solarix · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Another tip: Not sure if its code yet in your area, but should put labels on the conduit saying "Caution - Photovoltaic Power Source".

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Install is complete!!! But, it doesn't quite work yet.

Everything got finished, we powered up the inverter, all systems ok...then got an error message:

AC Voltage Too High

The manual says that means the output voltage (from the inverter to the house service panel) measured a surge. Problem is, it killed the installer's test meter and that was that, couldn't try it again. Oh so close. They said they are coming back out tomorrow with a new meter. I called SolarEdge and they said we need a new meter to run some tests...it could be a faulty inverter transformer, would be my luck.

Anyway, progress photos from today...

Started out by finishing up the roof penetration for the conduit...

Used the same sealing method that I did on the standoffs...

Bit more goo inside the hole for extra measure...

And some more on top too, finished product...

Inside the attic I secured the conduit to a rafter and put some sealant from this side too.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

For the other one though, it didn't end up next to a rafter, so I put in a piece of 2x4 between the rafters to secure the conduit.

Ran the FMC through the wall and then the wiring was pulled by the installer.

Wiring all pulled and connected inside the combiner box.

I took a voltage reading at the 11 panel string and got 11.1VDC, just like I should. With the power optimizers, they output 1v each until the inverter is turned on. Makes it safe and easy to make sure all the panels in the string are properly wired.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Now back to the panels above the gutter from yesterday...

Not only were they above the gutter, but they didn't install the mid-clamps correctly.

These are supposed to go vertically, not horizontally, so that the sharp ends puncture through the anodized coating and ground the panel, like this...

So with that, we redid all of them, put the clamps the correct way, moved them up and all looks great now.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

And finally I made them redo the conduit on the outside. Even with me watching as close as I could the whole process, the guy still snuck in 3/4" conduit instead of 1" like the permit says. Could not believe it. I even saw him with a piece of 1" in his hand, so figured it was good, and I went up on the roof to do my thing with the penetrations and when I came back down, the 3/4" was already in.

It should be fine, the conduit fill is 34% and the permit says max allowed is 31%, but old NEC code was 40% so I don't see why it would't be ok. We'll see what the inspector says, if he's good with it, I'm good with it.

At least it came out looking nice, now I have to redo my irrigation conduit because it looks like ass.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

solarix wrote: »

Another tip: Not sure if its code yet in your area, but should put labels on the conduit saying "Caution - Photovoltaic Power Source".

Hope this will suffice, it's the best I could do with my label maker. Also secured the FMC to the rafters so all finished up in the attic.

Also apparently I'm good on the conduit fill even with the 3/4" the installer used outside, the permit says max allowable is 40% and I'm at 34%.

solarix · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

I imagine those labels will suffice with your inspector, but just to show the kind of love we in the solar industry receive from the authorities, the labels are technically supposed to be a special reflective red color so that they can be easily seen by firemen.... Solar is a new thing, so the authorities are having open season on us. To be fair, they should really go after any kind of open flame in a residence. The estimate is that 40% of all house fires are due to kitchen fires - that's 147,400 per year in the US. Unthinkable to outlaw open flame in a kitchen though. There has been less than a handful of fires due to solar and yet we get the third degree. The latest code change is going to require means of disconnecting the array on the roof to eliminate any hazard to firemen (congrats - your SolarEdge system already has this built in). Not only that but will also require a 36" access zone around the sides and top of all arrays for fire purposes. On your roof that would pretty much wipe out half your array space.
Consider yourself lucky to have a solar system despite all the grief and extra work. If the utilities have their way, the day may come when rooftop solar is severely limited.

KozmoK · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Don't forget to run some CAT 5 cable connection through there while your in the attic/wall! (For the Internet Connection). I tried a Wireless bridge/access point but it often breaks connection all the time, might just be the brand) so I ran a hard wire from my router in my office to it.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

KozmoK wrote: »

Don't forget to run some CAT 5 cable connection through there while your in the attic/wall! (For the Internet Connection). I tried a Wireless bridge/access point but it often breaks connection all the time, might just be the brand) so I ran a hard wire from my router in my office to it.

KozmoK I actually got lucky on that. There is a CAT5 cable already running from my networking panel to the outside of the house, close to where the inverter is mounted (about 10ft away). I believe it's there for DSL internet maybe? Anyway, I was able to crimp a connector to the cable and test it out, works great. Now I just need to mount a junction box outside and then run the cable through some conduit over to the inverter, already have all the parts, just need to put it all together.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

IT'S ALIVE!!! YESSS!!!

Holy crap it actually works...meter is freaking "spinning" backwards!

http://youtu.be/9Enzo8cXPo8

It's been on for about 30 minutes and so far produced 5.36kWh of power. :clap2:
That's about 15% of what we're using daily, in only half an hour! So sweet! My TED5000 "KWH used since midnight is actually going backward too.

Of course to get to this step, I had to figure out why the hell it wasn't working. The installer was supposed to come out yesterday with a new meter, of course he was a no show, so I went on Craigslist and bought one myself for $10.

Popped it in, and nothing, that wasn't the problem. :mad: So busted out the volt meter to check the connections...everything looked ok until I got to the AC disconnect panel and even in the ON position, I wasn't getting anything on the other end (top side was reading 241v). Shut off the power and checking for continuity with an ohm meter and what do you know, the left side wasn't making a connection. Looking at it closer, the "clamp" was too spread apart, so used a screw driver to bend it a bit and bam, works like a charm. Now I should probably shut it off before the electric company notices Im backfeeding power without their consent.

BB. · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Got to love that "For isolated neutral, remove screw."... When/why/etc...

-Bill

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

BB. wrote: »

Got to love that "For isolated neutral, remove screw."... When/why/etc...

-Bill

I don't even know what that means!

BB. · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

"We"... usually have the green wire safety ground (and ground rod) bus connected to the neutral white wire bus in one location--In the main panel.

In this meter socket, they appear to have a screw that can tie the neutral lead to the meter box (perhaps a green wire ground bus there?).

Where to go with that--not sure.... (I am not an electrician).

-Bill

solarix · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

There are different types of meters that go in these meter sockets. Generally for solar, the neutral isn't even used, but some meters need a ground in which case the screw is needed, in some cases, the neutral is needed an you take the screw out.
It bothers me that the disconnect was faulty. That nevers happens on new equipment. You better make sure its making a good connection or it could be sitting there smoldering. Measure the voltage across the contacts and see if there is any voltage drop.
Another obscure APS rule is that for 8ga wire (40Amp circuit right?) they want at least 11 feet of wire between the disconnect and the breaker to guarantee a fault current is limited to the 10,000A rating of the breaker. How they figure 10,000A could flow in a solar circuit i've never understood.

BB. · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

solarix wrote: »

Another obscure APS rule is that for 8ga wire (40Amp circuit right?) they want at least 11 feet of wire between the disconnect and the breaker to guarantee a fault current is limited to the 10,000A rating of the breaker. How they figure 10,000A could flow in a solar circuit i've never understood.

As I understand, the pole transformer is rated for 10,000 amps maximum to a short circuit (roughly).

The minimum wire length gives "enough resistance" that a dead short will be 10,000 amps or less--Therefore the typical Home fuse/breaker will not have to interrupt more than 10,000 amps (their UL rating).

In commercial buildings very close to the transformer (and a whole bunch of other requirements that I do not know about), there is a requirement (at least in some northern California locations), breakers are not allowed and the installation needs a very expensive set of fuses to manage any shorts >10,000 amps.

-Bill

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

solarix wrote: »

It bothers me that the disconnect was faulty. That nevers happens on new equipment. You better make sure its making a good connection or it could be sitting there smoldering. Measure the voltage across the contacts and see if there is any voltage drop.
Another obscure APS rule is that for 8ga wire (40Amp circuit right?) they want at least 11 feet of wire between the disconnect and the breaker to guarantee a fault current is limited to the 10,000A rating of the breaker. How they figure 10,000A could flow in a solar circuit i've never understood.

So put a volt meter on it and make sure the voltage is a steady 240V or thereabouts? Shouldn't fluctuate up or down at all right?
That's basically what was happening before I bend the contact, it was jumping all over the place.

It's 6awg wire (47.5amp output from inverter, 60A breaker).

And 11ft? I've got like 3ft maybe, but all the installs I've seen in my neighborhood look about the same, the disconnect is right next to the service panel.

solarix · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

No, measure the voltage directly across each contact - should be close to zero for a good connection. Any voltage seen across the contact resistance becomes heat, which then can degrade the contact - raising its resistance, raising the voltage drop, raising the power loss, etc, until "poof" something burns. In this way, poor electrical contacts are the start of most electrical fires. If I was you, I'd demand the installer replace this suspect, faulty disconnect. Of course, he may say "what the ___ are you doing testing the system" as both you and he signed the interconnect agreement with the utility saying that the system would not be energized until the utility inspects it. And your installer seems to be one of the bad eggs that the utility is concerned about. It used to be at least, that the APS inspectors would check the solar meter to see if reading is 0000. Be sure to use a "dummy" meter for your testing to avoid having APS claim you now have "used" equipment and deny your interconnect.
Very few inspectors know about the AIC 11ft rule let alone enforce it. The larger the wire is, the longer it needs to be to acts as a 10,000A fuse. #6 is more like 19ft. It can be partially looped (just not a full loop) around the inside of the breaker box if needed. Sorry to have opened another can of worms, but electricians are licensed for a reason. (unfortunately, license is no sure thing either as you are finding out). At least, you have the one brand of disconnect (Eaton) that actually states (read the fine print on the label) that it can be used in series with a breaker. The other brands only are listed for use with fuses.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Solarix, sorry to keep asking for clarification, but I'm more of a visual learner.

So which two contacts out of the 4 am I putting the volt meter on? Top left to bottom left or...??
And also I can only assume this is with the disconnect in the ON position and power running through it? Just wanting to make sure because when testing with the ohm meter, the power needed to be off though the disconnect needed to be in the ON position.

Cariboocoot · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Switch ON.
Check for Voltage from red to red.
Check for Voltage from black to black.

You're looking for a Voltage differential on the two sides of each contact.

HX_Guy · January 2015

Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Switch ON.
Check for Voltage from red to red.
Check for Voltage from black to black.

You're looking for a Voltage differential on the two sides of each contact.

Thank you sir.

Just checked and I get a 000 reading across each contact...so good to go right?

Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

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