Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #92
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    Awesome, thanks Vic. I found the calculator here: http://design.unirac.com and according to that, I can actually have a maximum span of 140" between mounting points so I guess 8' (96") is ok.

    Me , Your pushing it with what you called "monsoon season" .
    I live in winter wind storms , enough to make your ears pop.
    Mine are every 2' on each truss/frame .
    As with the rest of this poor saga , How much up front Coin have you put forward?

    As One Gent put here , Document & build the case for the judge , Cut your losses & get your roof repaired . The fight was settled with Fv*kin NO WAY!!

    Sad state if all are driven by the greenbacks .

    VT
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #93
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Just put an order in for the Quick Mount PV universal tile mount to redo the whole system. Kept going back and forth trying to convince myself that they way they did it would be "just fine" but I knew it really wasn't the right way. It'll take a little longer to do and it's quite a bit more expensive, but everyone I talked to from 3 different roofers to a couple of solar installers to everyone here all pretty much said "Oh boy" when they heard about the hanger bolts and saw pictures.
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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #94
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Probably a good idea if the installer will use them at your direction. You going to try to keep the same layout then, and use the same holes? You said your AHJ didn't want to come out and look until it was finished, but did you show them what the layout will be and that the fire setbacks have been changed?
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #95
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    sdold wrote: »
    Probably a good idea if the installer will use them at your direction. You going to try to keep the same layout then, and use the same holes? You said your AHJ didn't want to come out and look until it was finished, but did you show them what the layout will be and that the fire setbacks have been changed?

    Honestly I might just tackle it myself, doesn't seem terribly difficult at all from watching their instructional video. Or at least work up there at the same time with them and make sure it's being done correctly.

    http://www.quickmountpv.com/pdfs/Three-course-tile-web.pdf

    I am going to reinstall the tracks in the same locations, I can make it work and follow the original layout. I did have some concern about using the same hole but after talking to a client of mine that has been doing roofing for 25 years (and subsequently found out he does the roofing installs for SolarCity) he said he doesn't see a problem with reusing the hole.
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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #96
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Shouldn't you be having the installer put them in? if you start working on it, it might derail whatever recourse you have against the installer.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #97
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    sdold wrote: »
    Shouldn't you be having the installer put them in? if you start working on it, it might derail whatever recourse you have against the installer.

    I'm going to run it by him and see what he says but I have an idea he won't mind. We last left it as basically me buying what's needed to make this right and subtracting it from what I owe him, which was done through text message so there is at least some sort of written record.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #98
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    I'm going to run it by him and see what he says but I have an idea he won't mind. We last left it as basically me buying what's needed to make this right and subtracting it from what I owe him, which was done through text message so there is at least some sort of written record.
    lol, you might get some of those barter $$ back. Hmm !! I take it the electrical is mostly done ??
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #99
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    lol, you might get some of those barter $$ back. Hmm !! I take it the electrical is mostly done ??

    The electrical has to be redone, so not really. The only thing I can say is actually correct so far is the inverter, the disconnect and the meter box mounted to the wall...that's about it haha. I told him he needs to redo the conduit using metal conduit, this plastic crap isn't going to work (and apparently it's straight plastic conduit, not the metal filled with plastic exterior that I thought). The wires he used also don't seem to be the right gauge, the permit version I have says 4AWG and he used a variety of 6AWG and 8WG, so those have to be redone too. Fun stuff huh?

    As for the roofing part, I really wouldn't mind and I think would actually enjoy tackling it myself. I know it'll be time consuming but I figure a few days should do it? Guess I'll see how fast it goes. I plan on using the 3 course method seen in this how-to video from Quick Mount @ 8:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cLt6YHGAFc
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #100
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    The electrical has to be redone, so not really. The only thing I can say is actually correct so far is the inverter, the disconnect and the meter box mounted to the wall...that's about it haha. I told him he needs to redo the conduit using metal conduit, this plastic crap isn't going to work (and apparently it's straight plastic conduit, not the metal filled with plastic exterior that I thought). The wires he used also don't seem to be the right gauge, the permit version I have says 4AWG and he used a variety of 6AWG and 8WG, so those have to be redone too. Fun stuff huh?
    All you have to do now is get him to move the panels on to your property, your in and he is out, right ??
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #101
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    All you have to do now is get him to move the panels on to your property, your in and he is out, right ??

    I ordered the panels myself actually (thought I had mentioned that already, maybe not), they are supposed to be delivered on Friday. I need him to mount them up but I'm pretty confident I could finish the rest myself. Unfortunately I need him because the city will not even work with a homeowner on a solar install, it has to be done by a "professional".
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #102
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    I ordered the panels myself actually (thought I had mentioned that already, maybe not), they are supposed to be delivered on Friday. I need him to mount them up but I'm pretty confident I could finish the rest myself. Unfortunately I need him because the city will not even work with a homeowner on a solar install, it has to be done by a "professional".
    Ok, you'll come out ok, hope it works for you.

    Post # 80
    I don't have a business relationship with the installer. The only items I purchased myself were the inverter and the optimizers since he said he doesn't normally work with those. He was to supply everything else like wiring, racking, and panels.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #103
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Ok, you'll come out ok, hope it works for you.

    Post # 80

    He was supposed to supply he panels originally but it went from "We have them already" to "We are waiting on the delivery truck, should be here this morning" to "We are waiting for them to clear customs". So I just ordered them myself and am deducting the amount from what I owed him.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #104
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Can anyone confirm here? It looks like another violation, he used the wrong wire on the rooftop?


    I was reading this site earlier talking about wiring and it said that in conduit, THWN-2 wire is to be used, which he did. But then for wire up on the roof, that is not in conduit, USE-2 or PV wire should be used...and specifically not THWN-2 wire because it's not UV resistant. The permit also shows the same need for USE-2 wire.

    http://www.thesolarplanner.com/steps_page9.html

    WrongWire1.jpg



    WrongWire2.jpg
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #105
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    That doesn't look like PV wire to me. Looks like ordinary hook-up wire. Expose such wire to the elements and the insulation will degrade. Any exposed wire on the roof should be the same as the leads from the PV panels.
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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #106
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    What about talking to your state's contractor's licensing board to get some advice on what to do next? It seems like everything is going really sideways for you and you aren't ending up with what you agreed to in the contract.

    Your situation is like having a home built where the frames are going up on a concrete foundation with non-pressure treated sills, and you're wanting to re-do them yourself while the builder is at lunch. Would the city's position be that you should let the framer finish the house and then deal with it during the framing inspection?
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #107
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    The city told me the register of contractors won't get involved until the job is finished, which is odd, but I guess maybe to give the installer a chance to fix it? I don't know.

    On another note, I drove by 9 homes within my neighborhood that have solar installed (and this is a new neighborhood, first houses built about 2 years ago, all homes have tile roofs). I cried a little on the inside when I saw their pristine installs. :( Out of the 9, I was actually surprised to see 1 actually had the bolt-through-the-tile like how mine was done, though maybe they used TileTrac and not just a hanger bolt. The other 8 though were all either with aluminum standoffs or with tile hooks. I was also surprised though that none seems to have flashing over the tile, at least not that I could see from the street. I wonder if they placed the flashing under the tile but above the subflashing, according to QuickMount that is acceptable as well.

    A few pictures of some of the installs...

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    12.jpg
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #108
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Finally getting somewhere with the city. Called and spoke with someone who said I could stop by to pick up a copy of the approved permit (up till now I was going off an older version of the permit, not the official one). The lady also put me in contact with the Building Official who said they would setup a courtesy inspection even though it's not something they normally do. He was a bit skeptical at first, probably thinking I'm just complaining about some cosmetic issues but once I told him about different gauge wire than what's specified in the permit, he was all ears. Funny thing is the permit packet actually has a spec sheet for the correct type wires, so the installer knows what's needed to do it right, he just isn't doing it.

    About the roofing, he confirmed that the inspector does not go up on the roof and it's practically impossible to verify for flashing. He did say that the standoffs need to be installed as recommended by the manufacturer, which technically the Unirac hanger bolts were, but they also have to match the permit plan, which they don't since that shows aluminum standoffs. He said he actually just had an employee at the city go through this, they bought a house that had solar and did a home inspection, the inspector found there was no flashing installed and the home seller had to pay a few thousand out of pocket to redo the install before the buyer went forward with the purchase.

    Now that I have the actual permit, I think I can contact him with exactly what is wrong and what needs to be fixed. I took a quick look outside and so far found:

    "No DWV, MECH or B-Vent penetrations allowed under solar panels" - He put railing to mount panels right over vents
    " #4 AWG THWN-2 wire" - He used #6
    " #4 AWG THWN-2 wire" - He used #8
    " #10 AWG USE-2 wire" He used #10 THWN
    " 1" EMT" - He used 3/4" nonmetallic LiquidTight
    " 1" EMT" - He used 3/4" EMT

    Maybe some of this stuff is ok and I'm being too anal? I don't even know anymore.
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  • ramloui
    ramloui Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭
    #109
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Insist for what is on the permit!!!
    This is what you asked your installer to bid on. Any deviation to this plan makes you ultimately responsible for the new installation. Guess who your insurer is going to blame if you have a claim? Guess who the next owner of your house is going to sue if anything goes wrong? It is not worth it. Stick with the apporved plan or get a new plan approved.
    Off-grid cabin in northern Quebec: 6 x 250 W Conergy panels, FM80, 4 x 6V CR430 in series (24V nominal), Magnum MS4024-PAE
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #110
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    ramloui wrote: »
    Insist for what is on the permit!!!
    This is what you asked your installer to bid on. Any deviation to this plan makes you ultimately responsible for the new installation. Guess who your insurer is going to blame if you have a claim? Guess who the next owner of your house is going to sue if anything goes wrong? It is not worth it. Stick with the apporved plan or get a new plan approved.

    That's exactly what I'm insisting on the installer to do, to match the plan as approved.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #111
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I swear could these guys have done one f*cking thing right?! What good is the star washer going to do ABOVE the optimizer? Ground it to itself??

    13.jpg

    I'm guessing I need new ones now? These can't be reused if I remember correctly.


    And this is my bolt and sealant. It was driven down about 3" into the rafter with 5" above and actually flexed if I pushed on it with my foot.
    The sealant basically scabbed right off the tar paper, you can see in a couple spots it actually had good contact as some of the paper came off with it, but at the vert top, where water would actually enter...clean as can be!

    14.jpg

    15.jpg
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #112
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    The purpose of that washer is to lock the nut, not provide ground. It is in the right place. Note the square rough area with the tap hole and ground symbol below it; they is for attaching grounding wire. You can reuse star or compression lock washers provided they haven't been damaged and lost their ability to lock. Compression type (split ring) are usually the first to give up.

    Looks like that 'sealant' was ordinary clear silicon sold in every hardware store, not really good enough for sealing threads through a roof. It ought to be polybitume or polyurethane roof & flashing sealant.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #113
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    That could be what they were planning, who knows, but the optimizers can be grounded with a star washer directly to the rail which would save a lot of time and money not having to run all that ground wire.

    starwasher.jpg
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #114
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I guess I can see why my installer cut every corner he did...this is very time consuming and tiring! Took me 4 hours to do 16 standoff posts (and I still have to cut the holes into the tiles)...oh and plus another 3 hours to undo all the work he did.

    16.jpg

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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #115
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    24.jpg

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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #116
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    29.jpg

    30.jpg


    Oh and the comedy continues...anyone know a good way to find the studs in the roof? How about just drill till you find it??

    20.jpg


    For $9 he could have bought this magnetic stud finder! It works so well I was pretty amazed.

    21.jpg
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #117
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    A dab of sealant where the standoff comes through the exterior flashing will finish those stand-off's off..:cool:
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #118
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    westbranch wrote: »
    A dab of sealant where the standoff comes through the exterior flashing will finish those stand-off's off..:cool:

    Yeah, not finished yet...there is actually a rubber boot that came with the standoffs that needs to go on there too, but I still have to cut the hole in the tile first. I just wanted to put it on there so I could at least see one sort of done before I finished up for the day. :)
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #119
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    do a test to see just how tight that boot is, we used a 'boot' on our chimneys: one was water tight, the other leaked only when the wind drove (read blasted @ 30MPH) the rain at the chimney and it found a weak unsealed spot, came all the way inside... those type of winds are common for us.
    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #120
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    The boot will also have have a bead of sealant at the top and it's double flashed so if it does somehow make it past the deal then there is a second barrier below which has its own sealant. I feel pretty good about it.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #121
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Your work already looks better than that installer's! :D
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