Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

Options
245678

Comments

  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #32
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »

    For sake of argument some of the installers and people that post in here do not believe in flashing's, or don't use them and use the down and dirty L bracket / Lag bolt screw down method with a dab of sealant. Each and every roof penetration is expensive, some laugh when they hear $30-$50 per each, for flashings and standoff's and labor. Don't believe all that people post, ask how is theirs installed, you'll see a lot of wood frames.

    That's the part that's hard to judge. While this may not look pretty, that's not really my concern...I'm more concerned about IS IT RIGHT? I mean if it's proven to withstand structurally and doesn't leak, then I'm ok with this method of mounting.

    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Well, your drawing looks good, but what you don't know how the drawing lined up with the Rafters and tile breaks on the roof. There could be a perfectly good reason the drawing wasn't followed.

    Which drawing are you referring to?

    This one here wasn't done by me, it was done by the solar design company (not the same as the installer, a 3rd party).
    1.jpg

    It was based off of a drawing that I did give to the installer (who then forwarded it to the design company it seems). I understand that things may shift because the rafters aren't exactly where they assumed, but you would think it would shift around, not completely change, including the orientation of the panels. What logical explanation could there be for that?

    This is the drawing I gave them. As you can see, they actually modified this also a bit when submitting for the permit. We originally talked about having 3 panels on the back patio roof, but they nixed that without even talking to me about it which I was fine, wasn't that critical and it was actually their suggestion to do that when we started planning this.
    Layout.jpg



    And this is what he has installed racking for so far. What reason could there possibly be for changing the panel orientation and for not following the fire code setback?

    Layout2.jpg
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #33
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I think the questions you have should be asked to your Installer. These are much different drawings than you have posted before and the layout is very different. He has 23 panels on the lower part and you had / wanted 17. To me thats 6 panels that maybe couldn't go somewhere else or has a better orientation. No one here was a party to your conversations, all that matters is that you end up happy.

    Looking at the legend in the drawing, it looks like he's following the attachment that is called for. I don't how they measure the 3 ft " Clear Path " for the Fire Department, is that on one side ??

    On my own personal system I had panels that the installer ended up moving because of plumbing vent stack shading. 2" of shading will knock out a lot of production. I also had a gas furnace vent that caused a lot of problems.
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #34
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I think the questions you have should be asked to your Installer. These are much different drawings than you have posted before and the layout is very different. He has 23 panels on the lower part and you had / wanted 17. To me thats 6 panels that maybe couldn't go somewhere else or has a better orientation. No one here was a party to your conversations, all that matters is that you end up happy.

    Looking at the legend in the drawing, it looks like he's following the attachment that is called for. I don't how they measure the 3 ft " Clear Path " for the Fire Department, is that on one side ??


    I did ask the installer when I was up on the roof with him, which is when I noticed the wrong layout. He was very vague in his answer, something to the effect of "yeah uh we had to change it a bit because the rafters didn't match up but it'll be fine". I don't see how the rafters would change how he could mount the rails, he basically mounted the rails further from each other (for portrait layout) vs closer together (for landscape). Logically I can see the rafters being an issue side to side, like needing to move the rails over by 12" lets say, but up and down? Maybe I'm missing something there?

    I specifically wanted the panels in landscape because if I understand panels correctly, the cells are split into 3 sections each with a diode, so if 1/3 of the panel is shaded, the other 2/3 still produces power. The sections run parallel to the long side of the panel. If you shade the panel from the short side, then it goes to almost 0 production.
    I told him this, to which he said the panels actually have 16 diodes. That's not correct, at least not according to Canadian Solar's spec sheet.

    Honestly I think he went this way because it's about 100 ft less of railing, so it's cheaper for him. I can't think of any other reason.

    The Fire Dept setback is 3' on each side of the ridge (ridge being the top edge of the roof parallel to the eve). You can see on the permit schematic that there is a dotted line which shows the setback and panels should not encroach past that dotted line (#5 in the legend). As you can see in the layout he did, the two blue panels leave 0 setback and most of the green ones are also not good (measured 13" from the ridge to the rail at one point and 28" at another...once the panel goes over the rail, each of those will be much less...practically no setback).
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #35
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Was back on the roof earlier today and noticed a few more things...

    At least of the of the lag bolts isn't sealed completely. Who knows what it looks like under the tiles.
    11.jpg

    And a few more cracked tiles.
    12.jpg

    13.jpg
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #36
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Wow, that looks pretty crummy and not completely sealed. The way the tile is grooved water would run right under that bolt. Those broken tiles will have to be replaced. Even tho the tiles are not meant to be waterproof it's still best to keep the intrusion as low as possible. Looks like he has poor workmanship and lacks attention to detail. Hold his feet to the fire and hold back money in case you have to hire someone else to clean up his mess. As was said you may want to cut your losses now.

    Hard to tell, but that bolt doesn't look like it's driven into the same depth as one in another picture you posted.
    · Share on Twitter
  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #37
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Wow, Those broken tiles will have to be replaced. Even tho the tiles are not meant to be waterproof it's still best to keep the intrusion as low as possible.
    Hard to tell, but that bolt doesn't look like it's driven into the same depth as one in another picture you posted.

    So what use are the tile's ? Sun break on the real roof seal under the tiles ? like the gravel on top of the tar? The Tiles they use up here on the WET coast are waterproof due to they are installed on roofs without a sealing under them ,Breathable tyvek, but the roof trusses are built stronger than for duroid shingles due to the greatly increased weight + snow load. One would hope they are also pre-drilling the lag stud there installing so they are not splitting the truss frame .
    Very Sloppy work .


    VT

    I would go up into the Attic & view the lag studs & see if they are hitting the truss member ..

    I have installed , made my flashed roof mounts (Tig welded them) and made sure I bolted them into the area that I had reinforced for my fasteners.
    Snow load is 5 ' & wind of 160 Kph is not unheard of on the wet coast .

    VT
    · Share on Twitter
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #38
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    CDN_VT wrote: »
    So what use are the tile's ? Sun break on the real roof seal under the tiles ? like the gravel on top of the tar? The Tiles they use up here on the WET coast are waterproof due to they are installed on roofs without a sealing under them ,Breathable tyvek, but the roof trusses are built stronger than for duroid shingles due to the greatly increased weight + snow load. One would hope they are also pre-drilling the lag stud there installing so they are not splitting the truss frame .

    <snip>

    VT

    Generally the roof tile takes the bulk of the water off the roof, but I have a couple of spots that during a very hard wind blown rain some intrusion under the tiles does happen. Mostly the metal flashing handles the bulk of that but I have seen it trickle from under just tar paper coated roof. Complex roof lines make this worse in general.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #39
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    solar_dave told it right, I guess you'd call the tiles a covering for the seal / waterproofing. The tiles should carry off the rain / melting snow 99.9 % of the time. Roof's have become complicated with pitches and valleys everywhere. The kind of underlayment / rolled roofing shown on this roof kind of shows that they expected it to have some intrusion, but with penetrations and the way the water will run off the panels it can be tricky. The panels concentrate the water into areas that weren't designed in and ice dams can be a issue on some roof's. I am not a roofer, but I know a few and I hear their stories from time to time.
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #40
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    CDN_VT wrote: »

    I would go up into the Attic & view the lag studs & see if they are hitting the truss member ..

    Hard to do as I have radiant barrier installed, it's stapled to the trusses so you can't see the actual roof plywood.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #41
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I wasn't familiar with the " Tiletrac " system that was mentioned here, so I searched it some. basically it's a lag bolt install with a bolt / standoff that slides along a short piece of aluminum extruded track. I really don't see much advantage to it, but I found this you tube video, it is funny if you have any experience in the construction trade, not sure I'd post it on you tube as a " How To ". Check twice, drill once. lol, it's the " Crowbar " rafter finder method.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DVbzLozEGA
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #42
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    Hard to do as I have radiant barrier installed, it's stapled to the trusses so you can't see the actual roof plywood.

    Under these circumstances removing the barrier for inspection is justified. It can be stapled back afterwards.

    Your roof is now damaged quite badly. Your solar is not properly installed as far as it has been done. The contractor is of dubious quality. This job needs to be halted. The AHJ needs to tell the installer what changes must be made. You need to tell him what repairs must be done. And it must be made clear YOU will not be paying for correcting the mistakes and damage he has inflicted on your house. If he does not agree or causes any trouble (he can claim full bill and place a lien on your house - beware of that) you will need a lawyer to sue him with. Documentation of everything is essential.

    Unfortunately you will also need a contractor who is capable not only of doing the job right but of correcting the damage already done. That will be expensive. You should at least get a roofer who is qualified and experienced in tile roofs to estimate the repair needs.

    Too many people claim to be solar installers (or indeed general contractors) based on no experience or training. And they get away with it.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #43
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    ... something to the effect of "yeah uh we had to change it a bit because the rafters didn't match up but it'll be fine". I don't see how the rafters would change how he could mount the rails, he basically mounted the rails further from each other (for portrait layout) vs closer together (for landscape). Logically I can see the rafters being an issue side to side, like needing to move the rails over by 12" lets say, but up and down? Maybe I'm missing something there?

    I think you are missing something here... you don't have rails! They are mounted directly on the rafters with, hopefully hanger bolts. I would actually see this as a good sign, if a 'cheap(and maybe not just inexpensive) installation. The hanger bolts would have to go directly into rafters and a pretty good ways into them, 2 1/2- 3 inches to be ridged and not wear/wobble over time.

    I went back and looked, I guess that is a rail installed onto those bolts with a small piece of angle aluminum, I thought the were supporting a single panel. I like the design even less, I hate aluminum in that position and odd stresses put on it...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #44
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    The " L " bracket foot is how Unirac rail is mounted to the standoff. They are 1/4 thick and serrated and are a Industry wide standard method of attachment. Where I have a issue with them is where they are screwed down to a asphalt shingle roof with nothing but a dab of sealant. I wouldn't call them cheap at $2.00+ each.

    Attachment not found.
    .
    Attachment not found.
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #45
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Yeah I've seen those L brackets on a few installs, but they are usually mounted to a post, like this one. I've never seen it attached just to a bolt. Has anyone seen the type of install they guy did on our roof?


    3inch_stand_off1.jpg
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #46
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    Yeah I've seen those L brackets on a few installs, but they are usually mounted to a post, like this one. I've never seen it attached just to a bolt. Has anyone seen the type of install they guy did on our roof?

    Not on a Tile roof, those are made for asphalt singles with a rubber flashing. Could they be used on a tile roof ?? , I guess they could if you wanted to use a core drill and put 2" holes through the tile and figure how to flash them. They cost $5 - 8.00 ea depending on the length plus the flashing $10 ea. You can see your already up to over $20 per penetration in standoff, flashing, bolts and L bracket. You add the labor in and it adds up quick, then add the rail cost.

    The kind of Rail you need is where the bolt comes into the rail from the bottom and then you wouldn't need the feet. What is better ?? I have no clue and any thing most could say is a opinion and it's the internet you know. Most are " systems " and it's hard to mix and match parts from one to the other.

    Attachment not found.
    .
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #47
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Hmm, that type of post was the kind specified on the permit:

    Mount.jpg

    So what about how it was actually installed, with the hanger bolt? Silicon/flashing aside...is that an ok way of doing it for tile roofing? Or I basically need one of these options for it to be done right?

    I counted 94 mounting points specified on the permit schematic.

    solarmounts.jpg
    · Share on Twitter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #48
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Talk with a roofer that works with that tile. I know that most contractors hate the hard/fragile tiles. They break way too easily when walked on/worked on.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #49
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    Hmm, that type of post was the kind specified on the permit:


    So what about how it was actually installed, with the hanger bolt? Silicon/flashing aside...is that an ok way of doing it for tile roofing? Or I basically need one of these for it to be done right?

    I counted 94 mounting points specified on the permit schematic.
    Thats not even the roof you have. Here is all your other drawing said about attachment. This whole thing is a cluster.

    Attachment not found.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    #50
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I manage construction projects for a living. If I was in your shoes..........

    I would document everything that is not installed according to the approved plan/permit. Tell him to hire a roofer to fix what is wrong and he is to perform the work as specified. The Judge will ask you if you gave him a chance to correct the work. (This one may go to court) If he shows any sign of unprofessionalism, run him off and call your lawyer. Don't pay him one red sent. If you do, then according to Contract Law you have approve the work/installation to date.

    You got a bad one here.........


    The AHJ should be on him like a nit. You paid for a permit that means you paid for the inspections. You can always hire an outside consultant to go over the installation as well.

    Sorry for your troubles. This kind of stuff sucks, I know. You want to document, document, document. E-mails, phone calls, conversations record it all and write it all down with dates. Take lots of pictures. Judges like pictures.......
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #51
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Thats not even the roof you have. Here is all your other drawing said about attachment. This whole thing is a cluster.

    Attachment not found.

    What do you mean? That seems to match the drawing above, no?
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #52
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    What do you mean? That seems to match the drawing above, no?
    No, not the same, it says nothing about the standoffs. It hard to say, you keep adding drawings.

    Just out of curiosity, what Company # was it out of the bids you got ??
    BUT!!! One of Ben Franklin’s famous sayings is that “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” so be careful.
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #53
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    No, not the same, it says nothing about the standoffs. It hard to say, you keep adding drawings.

    Just out of curiosity, what Company # was it out of the bids you got ??

    The way I'm interpreting is that is the connection type into the roof, the lag screws, and it talks about the strengths. The standoffs aren't really relevant in that spec if I understand it correctly. In this drawing, you can see the same thing mentioned - ATTACH WITH (2) 5/16"X3" LAG BOLTS W/ MIN 2" EMBED.

    Mount.jpg

    I don't remember if I had these guys on the bid sheet, I'd have to look back at it in Google Docs.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #54
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    The standoffs are relevant in that they are much sturdier and will resist lateral force far, far better than just a bolt sticking up through the tile, which seems to be what you've been given.

    Those bolts on their own could easily deflect enough to crack the tiles they go through and create further problems down the road. Think "leverage action".
    · Share on Twitter
  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #55
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Your drawings look like they planned to use the Quickmount PV flat tile mount. You can tell by the shape of the standoff, and its gussets.

    http://www.quickmountpv.com/products/standard-tile-mount.html?cur=1
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #56
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    The standoffs are relevant in that they are much sturdier and will resist lateral force far, far better than just a bolt sticking up through the tile, which seems to be what you've been given.

    Those bolts on their own could easily deflect enough to crack the tiles they go through and create further problems down the road. Think "leverage action".

    Oh I agree completely, I think the single bolt sticking up through the tile is a terrible idea and I've never seen pictures of an install done like that...has anyone here?


    When redoing this, I'm going to want to go with a tile hook so the tiles don't need to be drilled at all. Price seems to be around $8.50 each, not including mounting hardware or flashing. Does that seem reasonable?
    Mounting-Systems-Accessories-MSI-Flat-Concrete-Roof-Tile-Roof-Hook.png

    Or there is this for $20 which includes hardware and flashing.
    1300-662.jpg
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #57
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    That is what should have been used. You now need a re-roofing of the whole area affected in order to repair the damage and correct the fault. Unfortunately these weren't on the original plans, were they?

    BTW I am not too familiar with tile roofs as they are not used up here; they would not survive our climate.
    · Share on Twitter
  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #58
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I used the mounting systems tile hooks and am very glad I did. They make horizontal and vertical mount versions to match your rails.

    The second one you showed might be for curved Spanish tiles, because the horizontal position is critical and needs to be adjusted. Also it looks like it might be aluminum, and therefore thicker for the same strength, which would require more tile grinding. The Mounting Systems hooks are stainless steel, so they have a small cross-section and require minimum grinding. In fact the example system they have set up in front of their warehouse near me didn't have notches ground in the tiles, and it's hard to tell.

    If I had a crappy installer, I'd use them because they are hard to screw up.
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #59
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    sdold wrote: »
    I used the mounting systems tile hooks and am very glad I did. They make horizontal and vertical mount versions to match your rails.

    The second one you showed might be for curved Spanish tiles, because the horizontal position is critical and needs to be adjusted. Also it looks like it might be aluminum, and therefore thicker for the same strength, which would require more tile grinding. The Mounting Systems hooks are stainless steel, so they have a small cross-section and require minimum grinding. In fact the example system they have set up in front of their warehouse near me didn't have notches ground in the tiles, and it's hard to tell.

    If I had a crappy installer, I'd use them because they are hard to screw up.

    How did you go about sealing/flashing the part that attaches to the rafter?

    I found the same style hook from Grace Solar for a bit cheaper and comes with mounting hardware, seems to be the same thing?

    http://www.acosolar.com/racking-mounting/grace-solar-flat-tile-roof-hook-gs-ik-02


    Additionally I found these, which a member on here (who actually lives only a couple miles from me) used on his install. They may be a solution to where I can reuse my tiles since they also require a hole in the tile and are adjustable horizontally.

    1300-138.jpg


    http://ressupply.com/store/solar-panel-mounting-hardware/roof-and-ground-mounts/prosolar-tt-1-t4-flat-tiletrac
    http://ressupply.com/documents/prosolar/TileTrac_Installation_Manual_Addendum.pdf
    · Share on Twitter
  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #60
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    How did you go about sealing/flashing the part that attaches to the rafter?
    Here's what I did. I made aluminum plates to spread the load out a little on the paper.

    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.
    · Share on Twitter
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #61
    Options
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    sdold wrote: »
    Here's what I did. I made aluminum plates to spread the load out a little and be easier on the paper.

    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.

    Very nice! What is the aluminum foil looking piece at the end?



    On the hanger bolt install my installer did...apparently it's a Unirac method? I know the L brackets and the rails are Unirac so I assume the hanger bolt is as well?
    Their PDF says "designed to install SolarMount or SunFrame rail sets above tile or metal corrugated roofs".

    The bolts are also apparently pretty expensive, around $6 - $7 per penetration.

    http://unirac.com/sites/default/files/ii209.pdf
    · Share on Twitter

Categories