Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #62
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    Very nice! What is the aluminum foil looking piece at the end?

    Thanks! It's this:
    http://www.homedepot.com/p/USEAL-USA-Band-6-in-Aluminum-Foil-Self-Adhesive-Repair-Tape-8872AF6/202086180

    It's just a first line of defense. The real good seal is the white roofing sealant used first in the hole, then around the hole on the top/bottom of the plate and the tile hook. I trust it a lot more than I trust those water dams (battens) above it.

    The bolt you showed does look like the ones in your install.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #63
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    sdold wrote: »
    Here's what I did. I made aluminum plates to spread the load out a little and be easier on the paper.
    Now that looks like a good system if it can handle the uplift that it might come under in a big wind. I have no clue what the Industry specifications call for. If they are commercially available they must meet it. No matter how much you plan something can tear it apart, if nothing else the whole roof will take off, solar panels intact.
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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #64
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Now that looks like a good system if it can handle the uplift that it might come under in a big wind.

    I know exactly what you are thinking. I try not to think about it.

    Edit: FWIW, my design uplift at 100 mph is 273 pounds per attachment. The strength of the screws is well beyond that. But there is a leverage. That's the part I don't like to think about. I picture the whole array lifting up a couple of inches, along with the tiles, and setting back down every time there is a big gust. heh heh
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #65
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Now that looks like a good system if it can handle the uplift that it might come under in a big wind. I have no clue what the Industry specifications call for. If they are commercially available they must meet it. No matter how much you plan something can tear it apart, if nothing else the whole roof will take off, solar panels intact.

    We actually get some pretty nasty winds during Monsoon season here in Phoenix, those tile hooks definitely look a lot more sturdy, and are attached with two lag bolts...vs just a single hanger bolt directly into the rafter. I'm surprised that the installer actually used something correct apparently...though he still didn't follow the correct layout, or leave the correct setback, or seal it up properly. At least if the layout was correct the sealing stuff could be fixed.
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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #66
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I actually think your single lag screw might be stronger, because it looks like the tile hook would make a nice lever to pull out one of the screws. I wish I had an extra one to try. Mounting Systems is near me, I might go down there at lunch and ask them if they have engineering data.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #67
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    sdold wrote: »
    I actually think your single lag screw might be stronger, because it looks like the tile hook would make a nice lever to pull out one of the screws. I wish I had an extra one to try. Mounting Systems is near me, I might go down there at lunch and ask them if they have engineering data.

    Good point.

    I just got off the phone with Unirac tech support and they have discontinued the hanger bolt, but they said there are still many out there with distributors.
    The lady said for a flush mount install (which I guess his is considered since the panels/railing is parallel to the roof - I thought maybe that meant the L bracket literally had to be flush with the roof but she said no), this isn't a bad choice and works well. She did say that the L brackets should be as low as possible on the hanger bolt so reduce flexing of the bolt and also said there should be a washer both below and above the L brackets between the bracket and the nut, which my installer did not do.

    Now I'm more pissed than ever that he didn't follow the layout/setbacks...seems it wouldn't have been as big of a mess as I thought if it wasn't for that.
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  • KozmoK
    KozmoK Solar Expert Posts: 42 ✭
    #68
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    That install looks sexy!
    sdold wrote: »
    Here's what I did. I made aluminum plates to spread the load out a little on the paper.

    Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.Attachment not found.
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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #69
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    The bolt might be OK, but it seems like there should be more to it. Certainly the weatherproofing method would be something better than sealant around the hole.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #70
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    sdold wrote: »
    The bolt might be OK, but it seems like there should be more to it. Certainly the weatherproofing method would be something better than sealant around the hole.

    She did say she wasn't a fan of how they recommend "flashing" it, which is just a washer pressed down against sealant.
    She recommended a product from Aztec Washer Company which is basically a small boot that you make a hole in and it fits snug over the bolt.

    http://www.flashingsdirect.com/mini-standard-square-base-pipe-flashing/?gclid=CjwKEAiAqrqkBRCep-rKnt_r_lkSJAArVUBcJeI8l5UjNYGD7TdwBbIyg3iC7GugtXQUsnv3Eja6eRoCe6jw_wcB
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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #71
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    That sounds like a recipe for leaks, but what do I know. I'd feel a lot better with a flashing that slips under the tile above. I like that name, "MasterFlash". It sounds like a rapper.

    I just talked to Mounting Systems and they sent me the test report on the tile hooks. They tested three samples and the average pull-out occurred at 1048 pounds. The picture of the mounting hook shows a lot of deformation. BTW I used 4-foot spacing between the mounts, which helps lower the load numbers (vs. 6-ft).
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #72
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Finally had a chance to talk to the city permit dept and not much help on them coming out to take a look. They said if they were to come out and see the project ins't completed, they wouldn't even continue to look and would leave. Plus, they would charge a $75 trip charge. They also said that since there hasn't been an inspection yet, the Registrar of Contractors wouldn't really get involved at this point either. Helpful huh?
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #73
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    What did they say about the specs not being met?
    Did they say why they have to wait for completion? If you can the contractor does that qualify as completion as he wont be back?
    Did you request a progress INSPECTION or a visit/look ?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #74
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    westbranch wrote: »
    What did they say about the specs not being met?
    Did they say why they have to wait for completion? If you can the contractor does that qualify as completion as he wont be back?
    Did you request a progress INSPECTION or a visit/look ?

    They said if the specs aren't met, it will be red tagged when the inspector comes out. They also however said that the inspector doesn't even go up on the roof, it's against OSHA regulation or some crap.

    I requested a progress inspection and apparently they don't do those.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #75
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    so how would he verify the fire setback distance? Oh, that looks ''about right"?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #76
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Great: they charge you big money for a permit then come back and inspect when it's all done and start pointing out what's wrong? I sure hope they don't do houses like that: it's a bit hard to tell the wiring is wrong after you close up the walls.

    Come to think of it, sounds a lot like the morons of the CRD. :p

    I'm sorry you've got big trouble and there's no easy solution. Better see about the lawyer now, as you may have to include the city in the lawsuit as well.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #77
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Since this has been going on for 4 months or so, it's hard to remember everything. What is the business relationship you have with the Installer, are you acting as the solar contractor and he is a sub-contractor to you, but using his license ?? It make's a difference if your buying stuff and he's supplying stuff and working on some kind of a cost basis for labor where you stand legally. In previous threads you were buying Panels and Inverter. One would assume you didn't buy the attachments and racking ?? I see in one thread your talking about making changes to the submitted plans on the installation, but he said the city said it was fine.

    This sounds like where two people met in the middle of the road, but they didn't understand each other very well.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #78
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    westbranch wrote: »
    so how would he verify the fire setback distance? Oh, that looks ''about right"?

    That would be verified by the fire department, not the city, but from what I was told by someone who had the fire department inspection, they also didn't get up on the roof to check...just looked from the street/backyard and eye balled it. Maybe that's why my installer feel so at ease not following the plans to the letter, he knows they usually don't go up there with a ruler to check.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #79
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Great: they charge you big money for a permit then come back and inspect when it's all done and start pointing out what's wrong? I sure hope they don't do houses like that: it's a bit hard to tell the wiring is wrong after you close up the walls.

    Pretty much. He said look from the ground, or if you have a ladder (literally if I, as the homeowner, have a ladder), they will get up to the roofline to look, but not actually go on the roof.

    Wiring I guess they just check not he side of the house what they can see inside the disconnect and such.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #80
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Since this has been going on for 4 months or so, it's hard to remember everything. What is the business relationship you have with the Installer, are you acting as the solar contractor and he is a sub-contractor to you, but using his license ?? It make's a difference if your buying stuff and he's supplying stuff and working on some kind of a cost basis for labor where you stand legally. In previous threads you were buying Panels and Inverter. One would assume you didn't buy the attachments and racking ?? I see in one thread your talking about making changes to the submitted plans on the installation, but he said the city said it was fine.

    This sounds like where two people met in the middle of the road, but they didn't understand each other very well.

    This has been going on since May, so for 7 months. ;)

    I don't have a business relationship with the installer. The only items I purchased myself were the inverter and the optimizers since he said he doesn't normally work with those. He was to supply everything else like wiring, racking, and panels.

    I actually ended up talking to the installer not too long ago and of course he's pissed and it was basically a yelling match. He doesn't understand what the problem is and why I want the plans changed, he says it won't affect anything production wise and not to worry about the inspection, that it will pass. I told him the job is very sloppy, it doesn't match what we agreed on or the permit and we're very unhappy with the whole process. He asked what I want...and I told him I want it redone to match the original plan. He said "No f*cking way" and that he would move a few panels but not everything. Told him that's not acceptable, and the only resolution is to move everything and have our roof fixed by a roofing contractor at his expense. At the end of the conversation he said "Ok, I'll move everything but I don't know when I can get out there, we'll try in the next week or so".

    Honestly I still don't trust him to do the work so I offered to move everything myself and also order the panels myself and for them to just mount the panels up and redo the wiring with metal conduit. Have not heard back from him yet on my proposal.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #81
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I hope it will works out for you, life is so short to have is kind of stuff going on. Good Luck !!
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #82
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Having tried about every solar mounting system out there, I would say you should convert the mounts over to the TileTrac system since you already have holes in your tile. I quit using the tilehooks as there are a lot of different types of tile roofing and only a few types of tile hooks - they invariably don't fit. You have to shim them or cut/grind out large chunks of your tile to get them to "slip between the tiles" Especially flat tile. Plus the load is cantilevered out on them and the leverage is not good on the roof fastener's seal. Either demand the installer do what you want, or get a roofer to do it. You're not going to get any help from the inspectors to force the contractor to do what you want - they just approve the final result. (And people wonder why I'm a DIY kind of guy.... )
    The TileTrac will put a pressured seal on the roof penetration - better than any kind of slapped on flashing or coating. You can go to the QuickMount website that makes a big deal out of how to "properly" do tile - see the videos on their Q-base system. However even they end up relying on a tar paper bib sealing their flashing to the existing tar paper. There is just no good way on a tile roof to protect tar paper with a flashing - hence I say you need to use your mounting bolt to hold down some kind of a plate and keep pressure on the penetration's seal. TileTrac
    Don't get me started on inspectors. Just had one refuse to inspect unless we left all the electrical boxes open - including the DC disconnect with HVDC inside. Tried to explain all the safety hazards and OSHA violations entailed but they just have all the power.... but won't lift a finger to help you.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #83
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Thanks Solarix.

    What's your input on the hanger bolt mounting method? It seems pretty similar to the TileTrac minus the adjustability and I guess the pressure on the penetration's seal.
    Ideally, if it would work out ok, I would like to reuse some of the hanger bolt locations he already made but I'm not sure if the method is 100% ok structurally wise and if the sealing method is ok.

    I spent some time measuring out where he put the racking and did an overlay with the panels in landscape and still meeting the fire code setback.
    The lines in yellow I believe could be reused, or at least the hanger bolt locations as some need additional railing. The lines black would need to be completely removed and relocated.

    layoutreuse.jpg

    hangerbolt.jpg

    The one racking I need to use, I would go with the TileTrac system as it seems straight forward to install and I like the benefits you mentioned.
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #84
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Structurally, I don't have a problem with the hanger bolt method (assuming they did a decent job of hitting the framing). If the mounts are on 4ft spacing, you have plenty of strength and ridgity once the panels are installed - and you have no snow load in Peoria. The hanger bolt doesn't do much to seal the penetration though. If it has threads showing in the area of the tar paper, you could add a large washer or plate ( at least 2in diameter I say) and put pressure on the seal. Otherwise I recommend TileTrac.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #85
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    What if they are 6' - 8' apart? Because that's what he did in a lot of spots, very few are 4' apart.

    And this is what it looks like above and below the tile. Is this ok as is, or does the silicon sealant need to be completely removed somehow and redone from scratch?
    I image that if the tile is lifted off the hanger bolt and the silicon sealant "broken", it'll be practically impossible to clean that up enough to reuse.

    7.jpg

    6.jpg
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  • sdold
    sdold Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭✭
    #86
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    Why does that tile extend below the rest?
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #87
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    sdold wrote: »
    Why does that tile extend below the rest?

    Eh, it seems to happen. Here are some tiles from an area of the roof that they haven't touched.

    uneventiles.jpg
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #88
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    I can't tell from the pics what rail is being used, but some of them do spec some pretty long spans, and since you don't have snow load you can do that. Get the specs from the manufacturers website. If the spans are too long, just add in some more mounts if you need to.

    Another factor on tile hooks is what size of battens the roofers used. It affects how high the tile sits and the tile hook needs to be just the right dimension to fit between the tiles. Of course the battens might not even be consistent which is why some of the tile may be uneven. I've seen tile hooks that are adjustable but then there is a trade off with strength. The stronger tile hooks are steel but then you have a rust problem. Aluminum ones will last but are fatter to get the strength and now you are grinding big grooves in the tile to get them to fit....

    QuickMount's Q-base system is a strong, stable aluminum post that uses two screws into the rafters per mount. We did a test on using two 5/16 lag screws 3" apart into your average top cord 2x4 and - thats right - it really likes to get a split going. no thanks. Plus that big post needs a huge 3" square hole cut into your tile (no problem, we'll just put a really huge 12x16" flashing over the whole tile!) Looks terrible on the posts near the edge of an array.

    Have you seen the new engineered structural screws that are making lag screws a thing of the past? Simpson and Spax both can be found at home stores. 1/4" shanks with special threads that don't need a predrill and won't split the wood. And come with spec sheets any building dept would be satisfied with. Your average home store lag screws are crap - break right off.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #89
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    The rails are from UniRac (there's a sticker on each rail with a US Patent number that traces back to UniRac), looks like the SolarMount series of rails. I'll have to see what I can find online about how far apart the mounts can be installed.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #90
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.

    HX,

    Sorry to read of all of the problems with your installation.

    Uni-Rac SM has had an on-line calculator, which should confirm required mount spacing, edge setback, etc ... have not used if for a couple of years ... should be on the Uni site. FWIW. Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #91
    Re: Solar install going very bad - looking for some help/advice please.
    Vic wrote: »
    HX,

    Sorry to read of all of the problems with your installation.

    Uni-Rac SM has had an on-line calculator, which should confirm required mount spacing, edge setback, etc ... have not used if for a couple of years ... should be on the Uni site. FWIW. Good Luck, Vic

    Awesome, thanks Vic. I found the calculator here: http://design.unirac.com and according to that, I can actually have a maximum span of 140" between mounting points so I guess 8' (96") is ok.
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