The future demise of lead acid batteries
mcgivor
Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
Rather than derail an existing thread, an interesting point was brought up by @Mangas, on another topic, below was the comment.
For many reasons, I would NEVER hook up an automatic watering system to our large banks.
If watering the batteries three times a year or so is too much maintenance for some owners, suggest moving to current higher cost AGM. In my opinion, next five to ten years service free storage will be best practice as unit costs decrease, charging management becomes mainstream and FLA are displaced into technologic7al obsolescence.
In the meantime, a little extra time servicing the banks to save some money.
The interesting point was the inevitable demise of lead acid batteries in all forms, or technological obsolescence, the advancements of other formats wether it be TV, audio recording or video recording, have evolved so rapidly that the new in, is the new out. Lead acid has enjoyed a long history without much compittiion, until now, when these new energy storage systems become more mainstream, are we going to see a reduction in the cost of lead acid as a last ditch attempt to retain market share, like in other technologies?, There will of course always be stalwarts who believe what is known is the safe bet, my thinking Is lead acid will become the, vinyl records of the battery industry. Simply from a logistics point of view, the weight of lead has an unfavorable disadvantage, so too is the energy density,.....interesting times.
edit, used a double negative, in unfavorable disadvantage..oh well
The interesting point was the inevitable demise of lead acid batteries in all forms, or technological obsolescence, the advancements of other formats wether it be TV, audio recording or video recording, have evolved so rapidly that the new in, is the new out. Lead acid has enjoyed a long history without much compittiion, until now, when these new energy storage systems become more mainstream, are we going to see a reduction in the cost of lead acid as a last ditch attempt to retain market share, like in other technologies?, There will of course always be stalwarts who believe what is known is the safe bet, my thinking Is lead acid will become the, vinyl records of the battery industry. Simply from a logistics point of view, the weight of lead has an unfavorable disadvantage, so too is the energy density,.....interesting times.
edit, used a double negative, in unfavorable disadvantage..oh well
1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
Comments
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I get the feeling we're on the verge of a energy storage revolution. Been a long time coming and I hope this revolution begins to snowball. Solar panel technology has undergone a similar, albeit shorter chronological history. End result being very inexpensive solar panels. If this happens with energy storage the benefits will be widespread, the least of which wouldn't be in the off grid world.
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
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> I get the feeling we're on the verge of a energy storage revolution
Absolutely. Flooded lead-acid batteries have been immensely useful, and maybe they'll still be useful for a while longer in a number of situations, but they have significant competition for the first time in a long time.
A question for those of you who have been dealing with FLA batteries for decades -- how much improvement has there been? I mean in the batteries themselves, not in the charging systems or solar panels or etc. If I had a time machine and I gave you a set of brand-new FLA batteries that were freshly made in 1985, how different would they be from today's versions?
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It would be nice if the major suppliers were aiming to replace lead acid rather than have an entire new system. YES It will be more efficient and more better to replace the inverter, charge controller and battery for a high voltage system. But now you are talking about a much higher price point. Looks like this is the approach both Mercedes and Musk are taking...Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
Photowhit said:It would be nice if the major suppliers were aiming to replace lead acid rather than have an entire new system. YES It will be more efficient and more better to replace the inverter, charge controller and battery for a high voltage system. But now you are talking about a much higher price point. Looks like this is the approach both Mercedes and Musk are taking...
There is more money to be made in selling systems in lieu of just selling batteries.
Strong integration of charge controller/inverter/battery bank and load control is not such a bad thing either.
I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life. -
I think days of cobbled-together solar power systems from consumers buying a piece from one manufacturer and a part from another manufacturer and some wire from another supplier are quickly nearing their end and thank heavens. As for lead acid batteries, as far as I'm concerned they were dead as soon as an option came out even if the option cost more money the lead acid cost more time, time can never be replaced but money can so it was a no-brainer for me.
Integrated Systems will be a lot better safer and easier for most if not all consumers who buy them.
There will always be a tiny niche market for hobbyists in the industry just like there is in the automotive industry for people who like to fabricate their own parts and manufacture their own cars one at the time for themselves they are few and far between but they do exist. -
It's not such a bad thing, except they have a LOOONNNNGGG way to go to reach cost partiy!Marc Kurth said:There is more money to be made in selling systems in lieu of just selling batteries.
Strong integration of charge controller/inverter/battery bank and load control is not such a bad thing either.
From a recent article;
"The base 2.5kWh Mercedes battery system will cost around $5,000 after installation when paired with a solar energy system, while a 20kWh system will cost about $13,000. Tesla’s Powerwall 2 is priced at $14,000 for 13.5kWh"
My 13 Kwh usable battery cost $2525, Charge controller $600 (if I was doing 48 volt) and $1500-$2000 for an inverter... Life expectancy @10 years... That's their imagined warranty.
I and many of off grid people are very rural, wonder what their 'up charges' and 'add on's will be...
Seriously doubt it will be a niche market for a long time, at least until prices get close. I had hoped to replace my current battery with a lithium bank when it dies in 3-4 years... I even plan to change voltages so will need a new inverter.Solray said:I think days of cobbled-together solar power systems from consumers buying a piece from one manufacturer and a part from another manufacturer and some wire from another supplier are quickly nearing their end and thank heavens. As for lead acid batteries, as far as I'm concerned they were dead as soon as an option came out even if the option cost more money the lead acid cost more time, time can never be replaced but money can so it was a no-brainer for me.
Integrated Systems will be a lot better safer and easier for most if not all consumers who buy them.
There will always be a tiny niche market for hobbyists in the industry just like there is in the automotive industry for people who like to fabricate their own parts and manufacture their own cars one at the time for themselves they are few and far between but they do exist.
But I won't do it at twice the price. I also really don't want or need someone to install it...
As to the safer, perhaps it will be for "no-brainers" with lots of money!
Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
I am old enough to remember paying $6,000 for a turnkey laptop. . .Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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I was just thinking about going with my dad to help him pick out his first computer in the mid 90's. Pentium processors had just come out and were a hot commodity, then Windows 95. I remember an older gentleman at the store saying "pretty soon, everyone will have a computer at home!"Mangas said:I am old enough to remember paying $6,000 for a turnkey laptop. . .Current system: 8-100w Renogy panels mono/poly, 2 strings of 4 panels in series - 24v 100Ah AGM Battleborn LiFePO4 batteries - Morningstar MPPT40 CC - 1500W Samlex PSW inverter -
New battery technologies like Lithium formulations are most certainly coming down in price quickly, but lead acid batteries in both flooded and AGM formats still have some life in them for now. But the clock is ticking.........
I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life. -
> @nickdearing88 said:
> Mangas said:
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> I am old enough to remember paying $6,000 for a turnkey laptop. . .
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> I was just thinking about going with my dad to help him pick out his first computer in the mid 90's. Pentium processors had just come out and were a hot commodity, then Windows 95. I remember an older gentleman at the store saying "pretty soon, everyone will have a computer at home!"
Reminds me of buying my first computer in the early 80s. $10,000 for a pc with 128k ram and a 10MB hard drive. The guy in the IBM store seemed to think I was some sort of bug that crawled into the store and might infect something. Maybe I did. In the early 90s, I started an ISP. Sold it to the local telco c.2000. Now I'm posting from a phone with more computing and networking power than existed in major cities when I bought the pc. This whole interweb thingy still amazes me.
Cost wise, it's possible that EV demand will ramp slower than battery production capacity, in which case I'd expect a big push on distributed storage systems with good pricing and support. It's also possible that EV demand grows faster than battery capacity. Either way, there will be a reaction from utilities. At this point, it's hard to tell, but my guess is EV adoption will lag capacity.
Aside from price, my problem with lithium is not being able to charge at low temps. Off-grid, heating the batteries to charge is a big problem. Even on-grid it changes the economics and utility in cold climates.
As for cobbled together systems, solray is probably right. We're all better off letting wiser people tell us what we need and how much we should pay for it.Off-grid.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter -
Apologize for sounding like a broken record but as an example our new next generation high efficiency HVAC improvement to our off grid system's lower power consumption has just been incredible freeing up a whole lot of FLA storage capacity and surge headroom.
The way I understand it due to a combination of high efficiency hardware innovation and new digital system management control applications made the old HVAC equipment installed less than 10 years ago pretty much obsolete for an off grid application such as ours. Going forward that's probably a shrinking time frame applicable to all of this.
In five years, I believe a combination of efficient power consumables, BMS, especially battery storage platforms, controllers, maybe advanced panel design etc will continue to open up economic off grid rural living. Reduce genset requirements and that cost too.
For me, it's not the cost of producing the power but the cost of getting it to me which only continues to rise. Grid companies want it both ways. Share privately generated photovoltaic production provided potential rural consumers pony up very expensive and increasing costs to bring in grid.
Currently, I measure it in miles while the future calculus may end up in feet.
If these trends continue, I'm optimistic rural stand alone off grid system use and associated accelerating cost efficiencies have a bright future. The cost of energy storage will continue to be dominant.
Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers -
To date the one major advantage of lead acid is that they can be recycled and there is recycling chain in place that works pretty efficiently. The other emerging technologies appear to be far less recyclable and recycling programs seem to be more theoretical than actual.
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peakbaggger said:To date the one major advantage of lead acid is that they can be recycled and there is recycling chain in place that works pretty efficiently. The other emerging technologies appear to be far less recyclable and recycling programs seem to be more theoretical than actual.
For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction, an environmental response will develop with time, if there is a financial gain, but that depends on the technology which will win the race for the replacement of current leader, lead acid , the King is almost dead, long live the new King, whoever or whatever the new King will be,1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding. -
Tesla Powerwall 2 (includes inverter but not mandatory install) - US$5500. T105REs for 13.5KW at 33% DOD = $5000 plus maintenance plus expenses involving the charge profile.
I expect that for most applications, lithium batteries can be in the same space as people - no heat needed. In other cases, thick insulation can make the power draw to heat them inconsequential.I am available for custom hardware/firmware development
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Every year I see threads predicting a major battery break through..........this year. It was part of the reason that I went cheap the first time. I thought batteries would be a better buy in a couple years.
I don't think batteries have changed very much in a long, long time. While I hope all you clever optimists are right, I am not sure that you are. During WWII, the lead acid batteries of the Type XXI U-boat was capable of driving the giant submarine for 11 days...underwater. Only with lithium could we do a whole lot better.
Electronics have grown smaller and faster. Other than that, the world has not changed all that much in quite some time.
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
softdown said:
Before we started working on cellphones people were using lead-acids for their phones, because that was the best technology available. EV's were pretty much jokes - demo platforms for companies that wanted to 'prove' that they were ahead of the curve.Every year I see threads predicting a major battery break through..........this year. It was part of the reason that I went cheap the first time. I thought batteries would be a better buy in a couple years.
I don't think batteries have changed very much in a long, long time. While I hope all you clever optimists are right, I am not sure that you are. During WWII, the lead acid batteries of the Type XXI U-boat was capable of driving the giant submarine for 11 days...underwater. Only with lithium could we do a whole lot better.
Electronics have grown smaller and faster. Other than that, the world has not changed all that much in quite some time.
Our first cellphone used nicad batteries - because that was the best technology available.
The first phone I designed (a satellite phone) used brand new lithium ions - 18650 cells that had a whopping 1300 mah each.
Today you can get 18650's that give you 2600mah at much higher discharge rates. EV's have 300+ mile ranges, charge in 30 minutes and are some of the fastest cars on the road. Battery powered drones can stay aloft for hours and deliver packages. So I'd say there's been a lot of change in the past 30 years or so. -
mcgivor said:peakbaggger said:To date the one major advantage of lead acid is that they can be recycled and there is recycling chain in place that works pretty efficiently. The other emerging technologies appear to be far less recyclable and recycling programs seem to be more theoretical than actual.
For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction, an environmental response will develop with time, if there is a financial gain, but that depends on the technology which will win the race for the replacement of current leader, lead acid , the King is almost dead, long live the new King, whoever or whatever the new King will be,
I don't have as much optimism on recycling of newer technologies. Frequently the new technologies end up getting dumped in third world countries as the actual recycling value is minimal. -
peakbaggger said:
mcgivor said:peakbaggger said:To date the one major advantage of lead acid is that they can be recycled and there is recycling chain in place that works pretty efficiently. The other emerging technologies appear to be far less recyclable and recycling programs seem to be more theoretical than actual.
For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction, an environmental response will develop with time, if there is a financial gain, but that depends on the technology which will win the race for the replacement of current leader, lead acid , the King is almost dead, long live the new King, whoever or whatever the new King will be,
I don't have as much optimism on recycling of newer technologies. Frequently the new technologies end up getting dumped in third world countries as the actual recycling value is minimal.
You are probably right about dumping our waste, or should I say North America's waste, since I live in a 3rd. world country, in the backyards of, devolping countries where labor is cheap and environmental laws are superfluous, with regards to the health and wellbeing of those employed in the dismantling of the remnants of a disposable society. Automobiles are shredded in Canada and shipped to India for children to sort out the various materials for recycling. I use Canada as an example, because that's first hand information, but in all likelihood widespread throughout North America1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding. -
mcgivor, the problem is bigger than just the waste, a whole new mindset is needed about any and all goods that we all buy...
I just saw this episode again on KNOW.... it is stream-able... you may have problems outside Canada, similar to KCTS PBS ch 9 in Seattle, who do not stream outside Washington state...
https://www.knowledge.ca/program/men-who-made-us-spend
the entire series of ''The men who made us .......'' is very informative....
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
@westbranch
No access outside BC, but I did find it at another site. I believe it's the same one.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x230460
Rick4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset. -
That's better than dumping the whole thing into a landfill.> @mcgivor said:
> peakbaggger said:
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> mcgivor said:
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> peakbaggger said:
>
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> To date the one major advantage of lead acid is that they can be recycled and there is recycling chain in place that works pretty efficiently. The other emerging technologies appear to be far less recyclable and recycling programs seem to be more theoretical than actual.
>
>
>
>
>
> For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction, an environmental response will develop with time, if there is a financial gain, but that depends on the technology which will win the race for the replacement of current leader, lead acid , the King is almost dead, long live the new King, whoever or whatever the new King will be,
>
>
>
>
> I don't have as much optimism on recycling of newer technologies. Frequently the new technologies end up getting dumped in third world countries as the actual recycling value is minimal.
>
>
>
>
> You are probably right about dumping our waste, or should I say North America's waste, since I live in a 3rd. world country, in the backyards of, devolping countries where labor is cheap and environmental laws are superfluous, with regards to the health and wellbeing of those employed in the dismantling of the remnants of a disposable society. Automobiles are shredded in Canada and shipped to India for children to sort out the various materials for recycling. I use Canada as an example, because that's first hand information, but in all likelihood widespread throughout North America
Recycling is far better than just dumping the cars into a landfill though. -
Rick, yes that is it... google his name and you can get the list of all his latest documentaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Peretti
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
Thanks, I'll take a look at it.4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
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Read a recent article about child labor mining refined cobalt in Africa which said it was used in New battery technologies.
Apparently, many sides to this.
Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers -
Here is a recent article about Cobalt Mining by children in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Excerpt:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/08/07/child-miners-aged-four-living-a-hell-on-earth-so-you-can-drive-an-electric-car-awful-human-cost-in-squalid-congo-cobalt-mine-that-michael-gove-didnt-consider-in-his-clean-energy/
And the actual article at Daily Mail (UK) (note: the Daily Mail may not be exactly work safe):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4764208/Child-miners-aged-four-living-hell-Earth.html
-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Apparently, these are some of the 40,000 child minors in the Congo making our electric cars possible. BB's article says they start mining at 4 years of age and will likely die young. Go electric - go pat yourself on the back and sneer at my gasoline engine.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
But if nobody bought cobalt, then my guess is that these children would be put to work doing other, similarly bad labor. So not buying lithium/NiCd/NiMH batteries doesn't help this "must be solved" problem.
I am available for custom hardware/firmware development
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I guess my quarrel lies with the fact that many of our esteemed plutocrats often drive on roads built with the young bones of slave labor in 3rd World Countries. While the public is repeatedly informed of the plutocrats brilliance and benevolence.jonr said:But if nobody bought cobalt, then my guess is that these children would be put to work doing other, similarly bad labor. So not buying lithium/NiCd/NiMH batteries doesn't help this "must be solved" problem.
We have lost our way.
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
Throughout history child labor was commonplace, progressive countries introduced laws or amended existing laws to be where they are today. Africa is for the most part is about 300 years behind, ideologically, the people can be brutally savage to one another, especially to those of a different tribe, remember Rwanda, I was born and raised in Africa and have seen first hand. Solving the problems is a monumental task, that won't be solved in the near future, if ever, do I have a solution, no, because I firmly believe that is just the way it works there, those in any position of power abuse it to the extreme.
Child labor was common in United States history see link
https://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html
1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding. -
It has been said that Africa was better off when it was ruled by whites.mcgivor said:Throughout history child labor was commonplace, progressive countries introduced laws or amended existing laws to be where they are today. Africa is for the most part is about 300 years behind, ideologically, the people can be brutally savage to one another, especially to those of a different tribe, remember Rwanda, I was born and raised in Africa and have seen first hand. Solving the problems is a monumental task, that won't be solved in the near future, if ever, do I have a solution, no, because I firmly believe that is just the way it works there, those in any position of power abuse it to the extreme.
Child labor was common in United States history see link
https://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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