Cable Connections: Battery Bank

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  • TexasOffGrid
    TexasOffGrid Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭
    #62
    Well, My KID charge controller stopped working after 7 months...just went dead.  I sent it in for warranty.  The Tech said that four (4) capacitors were blown...and the unit saw 250+ volts?  I have a surge protector on the system...and 30A breaker...they were fine.  Is it possible I have a voltage leak in the system?  Yes the system is grounded!  Any ideas?  Thanks.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #63
    what brand of surge protection, and diagram of wiring with sizes if possible would be immensely helpful... lightning is a specialized beast as you obviously know
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018 #64
    @TexasOffGrid  
    250+ volts PV input. Very likely lightning. Did you have a Midnite SPD installed between PV + and - inputs? 

    Rick
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
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  • TexasOffGrid
    TexasOffGrid Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭
    #65
    Hi, Yes, had a midnight SPD between the PV and Charge Controller.....on the positive line only...
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #66
    Well that is not good!  Do you think lightning and surges only like (+) ?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #67
    I have  to assume they were 115 V for DC and not any of the higher rated DC ones or  for AC?



     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    #68
    @TexasOffGrid
    I believe it should have been wired between PV + and PV- with a ground connection. Will Midnight replace under warranty?

    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
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  • TexasOffGrid
    TexasOffGrid Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭
    #69
    Yes, Midnight repaired under warranty.
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  • TexasOffGrid
    TexasOffGrid Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭
    #70
    Help....just burned through my third warranty repair on the MIdnite KID??????  NO load on the system....just charging the battery bank.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #71
    This may help...double check the wiring of the neg PV , It can only go to the Kid... no other connections allowed.
    The Kid can have only 1 connection to the battery IIRC...




     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #72
    TexasOffGrid said:
    The input and Battery fuses on the Kid Controller are 40AMP....so I switched my 30A fuse between the controller and battery to 40AMPs...same result with overheating and the Kid failed.  To answer Estragon:
    The Rebulk and absorb voltages were set to battery specs.  I have a 3000 Watt GoPower inverter, and run two freezers on it.  The freezers are rated at 5 and 7 amps respectively.   Yes, 3 strings of 24V. 
    Midnight Solar is sending me a new controller...and I am going to buy an automotive quality fuse to the batteries.
    Thank you for the inputs.
    BB has an EE background and is our most prolific poster. OP must have misunderstood when told that automotive type fuses are not designed for long periods of high loads. 

    This may confuse me a bit. Why would they use inferior fusing technology on an automobile that cost well over $100,000? Blowing a fuse is often catastrophic and most people are not equipped to quickly diagnose the problem and replace the blown fuse. On the other hand, a small, simple fuse is often easy to diagnose.

    I also don't really understand what makes a fuse designed for higher loads for longer periods. Though it is clear that construction has very large visible differences. The automotive fuses are pretty compact and one can easily see the size of the copper that determines the max. load size. Other fuses are comparatively huge and all is hidden except for an external tube with copper legs for positive and negative connection.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #73
    I don't think it's necessarily a case of "inferior technology", but more a case of using the right tool for the job. Fuses have different time-to-open, max operating current, max fault current, etc ratings depending on the application.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • cow_rancher
    cow_rancher Solar Expert Posts: 117 ✭✭✭✭
    #74
    Automotive fuses are the same as fuses that are "comparatively huge and all is hidden except for an external tube"  a fuse is a fuse, except for slo-blow fuses, they protect the wiring from becoming a fuse.

    Rancher
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,641 admin
    #75
    The problem has been seen with automotive type fuses is that the connectors to the blades on the fuse seem to be a weak spot.

    An old time poster here had an automotive fuse (holder) assembly that failed and almost caught fire (as I remember)... Fortunately for him, he had the fuse assembly in a metal (j-box?) of some sort. The fuse+holder were only used for less than rated current--Here is one old post (2012) where he talked about the problem.

    waynefromnscanada said:
    Re: Using 32V car fuses in 24V PV systems

    In my opinion a few volts won't make a lot of difference. I know of one case where they were used on a 1Hp 240 VAC motor that didn't have internal overload protection. Added after having motor re-wound several times. After that, only the fuse blew if the motor got stalled. That said, the current was already limited to what the windings would pass before burning up. On a more serious note, I nearly had a fire with the combination of one of those 30A fuses and it's plug in holder, where there was continuous 20A or so current. Seems a resistance built up between the fuse blade and the holder clip. Melted the holder, blackened the fuse leg, ate part of the blade away with arcing, still the fuse didn't blow! When I found it by accident when checking voltages and discovering a drop where there shouldn't have been any, the whole mess was welded together. Had to cut it open to see what had happened. After that, I soldered the wires directly to the fuse blades and have had no more problem. Used to have similar electrical problems with 12 volt motorbike systems years ago, at points where the wires were crimped into connectors. Just something to consider.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • TexasOffGrid
    TexasOffGrid Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭
    #76
    Really needing help here!!   Just burned through my 4th Kid Charge Controller.  Everything working fine and it started to rain....NO Lightning or Thunder...just rain.  The Kid somehow shorted and is now completely inoperative???  The fuses on the Kid were NOT blown...I have no idea why this keeps happening unless the KID they keep repairing is just a lemon?  Would appreciate any good advice about now before I go and drop another $600+ on a new brand of Charge controllers...THANK YOU!
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,641 admin
    #77
    What is your solar array (Ax series panel by Bx parallel connections)? What brand/model of panels? How cold is the average low for your area (any frost)? Any "coils of wire" on the solar array (high inductance)?

    What is the wiring from the Charge controller to battery bank like (awg, length, any "loops of wires")? --Wondering if you have any "inductive kickback" from the wiring? Any breaker/fuse trips under load (between controller and battery bank)? Did you flip a breaker (or switch) between controller and battery bank (again, inductive "kick")?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #78
    Is there surge protection? Are you doing welding? Is everything common ground.

    If you are Offgrid, you should not be repairing critical systems. They should be replaced with new equipment!!!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • TexasOffGrid
    TexasOffGrid Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭
    #79
    BB, I am using Renogy 100 watt panels, wired for 24V.  I have a 30A CB & SP between the panels and Charge Controller.  I also have a 30A CB between the battery bank and Charge Controller.  No breakers ever trip...and none of the fuses on the Charge controller have ever blown (30A). 

    Dave, no, not doing welding....only powering two 5 Amp freezers through a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,917 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018 #80
    SP is a surge protector device right?  There should be an SPD also between battery DC and the CC also BTW.
    What does Midnite say?  Also with this many failures the SPD at the array should be replaced if they think it is lightning again.
    The Blue lights are on?  the SPD right?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • TexasOffGrid
    TexasOffGrid Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭
    #81
    Hi, late post.  Yes Dave, Blue lights are on. Researching new controllers and have seen wiring diagrams with a common negative bus with a shunt to the battery negative terminal??? wonder if my system is not grounded properly?  I think I'm going to buy an Outback FlexMax 60 and abandon trying to use Midnite Solar products....Thoughts?
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #82
    TexasOffGrid said:
     I think I'm going to buy an Outback FlexMax 60 and abandon trying to use Midnite Solar products....Thoughts?
    The engineers at Midnite, are pretty good, and in fact are the guys who started Outback and were with Trace/Xantrex before that...

    I like your idea of a grounding problem, you say that the Midnite Kid display '...the amps on the Kid display start jumping all over the place...) Just turning in an inverter shouldn't have this effect... Might try it, being sure there are no loads on the inverter. Then add loads.

    Do you know if the inverter has ground and neutral internally bonded?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • TexasOffGrid
    TexasOffGrid Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭✭
    #83

    Update: I've been using the Outback FlexMax 60 now for 5 months....works perfectly! I followed their wiring diagram to the letter.

    Thank you for all the inputs and advice.

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  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2019 #84

    The over light on the MidNite Kid controller is over anything...........over voltage , over current , over temperature......I think you have over current situation

    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
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  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2019 #85

    @Texasoffgrid

    On using the MidNite Kid controller it is important that PV power goes to the PV inputs of the Kid controllers. PV negative and battery negatives are not common and must not be connected to each other. The Kid measures current on the negative leads . This is different than most controllers , On the shunt.....every negative lead goes there .......except PV negative!!!.......5 years expereince with Kid's and Kid beta tester!

    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
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  • jonr
    jonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    #86

    Be careful of which Midnite SPD. Even the 0-150VDC version has a clamp voltage of 295V.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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