Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Angelini · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

retrodog wrote: »

Don't kick me if this is already posted somewhere...

I just talked to a guy at minisplitsystems.com about their store brand unit (ambience). He claimed that it was built at the same factory as the Sanyo. Their 12,000 BTU version with heatpump is just under $1,000. Are they really built with the Sanyos and are they ok?

http://www.minisplitsystems.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=12WHRDC1

No Kicking! It would be great if you tried this out! You would be the beta!
Some history on how I got the guts to do this might help you with your decision.
First it is only money! Far more important decisions are out there, waiting!

Second, it was intuitive to me that with the variable speed DC motor, they were optimizing the refrigerant to run at different pressure/rpm. It was my hope that by limiting the programmed temperature to room and fan speed, I could stop the unit from going to higher power levels. That is the strategy here, running off small (1,600 W) arrays. Even less power if you are careful!
It works with the Sanyo mini spit. Same with the Mitsibishi Bill?

Keep in mind that just because many models and makes are from the same factory, it is the value added or firmware that can make big differences in units with the same basic components.

Go for it! definately let us know!

solar_dave · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I think I will call these guys on Monday. I am wonder if this unit can do multi split i.e. one base unit with multiple indoor units like the sanyo. Pricing looks very interesting.

LucMan · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Beware of parts availability and tech support on off brand equipment.
You can purchase all kinds of mini splits with Sanyo or Matshusita (Panasonic) compressors, and OEM electronics. The majority of brands are all manufactured in China.
The weak link on the inverter units are the electronics, you will need replacement parts eventually.
You may have to wait 3 -4 weeks for replacement parts to be shipped from the manufacturer if there is a problem, if they are still in business.
Stick with the major brands, parts are available in a couple of days even for 20+ year old units.

solar_dave · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

LucMan wrote: »

Beware of parts availability and tech support on off brand equipment.
You can purchase all kinds of mini splits with Sanyo or Matshusita (Panasonic) compressors, and OEM electronics. The majority of brands are all manufactured in China.
The weak link on the inverter units are the electronics, you will need replacement parts eventually.
You may have to wait 3 -4 weeks for replacement parts to be shipped from the manufacturer if there is a problem, if they are still in business.
Stick with the major brands, parts are available in a couple of days even for 20+ year old units.

Yeah I consider that as a positive attribute for any system. The deal as I see it with these that they are almost just throw away prices if parts are unattainable. You roll the dice and takes your chances.

I have a great AC guy here, but he is steering me towards a low seer (13) unit from his distributor. I would prefer at least a 17 seer unit.

My situation is sort of unique, I have a 3 room building being built this month (if I can ever get through the permits through). One room is going to be my work from home office and is 10X12, one is a workshop 12X22, and one is a garage/shop/storage addition for my Harleys, 16X22. The multi-splits seem to fit the bill, as really only the office would be cooled mostly full time in summer and lightly heated in winter. I question the effectiveness of a 30,000 outdoor unit mostly running a 7 - 8000 btu interior unit most of the time. However I could just buy 3 of the cheap offshore units one for each room and size them according to the load level with 2 of the 3 off most of the time for really less money and maybe get better overall efficiency on the consumption side.

Yes I am building the efficiency into the building, 2X6 construction with spray foam insulation with 2inch foil (radiant) faced exterior panels foam panels on the exterior under the stucco.

LucMan · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

solar_dave wrote: »

I question the effectiveness of a 30,000 outdoor unit mostly running a 7 - 8000 btu interior unit most of the time. However I could just buy 3 of the cheap offshore units one for each room and size them according to the load level with 2 of the 3 off most of the time for really less money and maybe get better overall efficiency on the consumption side. .

The multizones work great the compressor and fan only run at the speed required for the demand of the the unit or units, so power consumption will be equal to a single unit if only 1 evapoator is calling for cooling.
The off brands are not AHRI certified so they can claim any SEER & COP that they want. Another reason that they are cheaper, also no UL listing. I could rant on for pages about the SEER & COP rating Bull****. As far as I am concerned 13 SEER is more than adequate, as any thing over that the unit would have to run for 15 years without a problem to make up the difference between the additional cost and energy savings, that's not going to happen with the inverter models. I still like the single speed compressor models, they are still the best for reliability and overall cost to own and operate.

retrodog · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I was surprised to see a series of split air conditioner units at Sears.

Pridium

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/s_10153_12605_Appliances_Air+Conditioners%2C+Fans+%26+Heaters_Air+Conditioners?keyword=pridiom&viewItems=24&sLevel=1|2&viewType=24&sLevel=0&prop17=pridiom

Not sure who they are made by but it just fascinated me to see them carrying the technology there.

BB. · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Last time I was in Taiwan a couple years ago, Costco was selling some version of Mini-Splits too (I don't know if they could be separated or not--My Chinese ain't so good--as my wife and kids will attest to).

-Bill

PhilS · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

retrodog wrote: »

I was surprised to see a series of split air conditioner units at Sears.

As I might have mentioned a hundred posts ago, my biggest amazement is that the whole rest of the world has been using these for many years. And I'd never heard of them before Dave Sparks started this thread!

So it's ONE YEAR since we installed ours (the "benchmark" that Dave used before recommending 'em).

It's been over one hundred degrees every day the past few weeks, with temps possibly to 110 this weekend according to the forecasters.

We get home and the house is 75 degrees inside. SO NICE!!

Because of the extreme heat we do run the gen for 3 hours most evenings... but we woulda been running it to power two swamp coolers "in the old days" anyway, and then just trying to cool down a house that's a hundred degrees inside... it took over an hour and made it humid but not all that "cool".

Better to power the Sanyo AND add to the battery charge than try and squeak by and leave the batteries low all night. At a hundred or more outside, from 5 to 8pm the Sanyo is using about 1200w... well worth it! Most of the day it idles along at 300w KEEPING the house at 75. I tried leaving the Sanyo on low, 300w, one entire day last weekend and the interior temp got to 83 by 6pm, so we are spending some propane to stay cooler.

Phil

Dave Angelini · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Phil,
Hey! The low setting is just a benchmark that tells me that the heat pump is variable speed and can be controlled in a low power mode. We keep ours set on medium fan speed and 74F programmed. This draws about 5 AAC. The timer turns it on at 7am and off at 7pm.

On really hot days and it looks like that starts on Friday we will go to high speed but, someone needs to be there to program it after 10 am when the power curve of the panels comes up. It can then draw 7AAC average and hit 10AAC on peaks. The max power is nice also as it times out automatically after 20 minutes and reverts to last setting.

It takes about a 2KW array to do this and the tracker keeps us from needing a generator. Multiple staggered fixed arrays also works for a client. You can never have enough PV offgrid. It also buys peace of mind and more complete charges on marginal days.

I have been trying to get Sanyo to see the benefit of building a "smart grid" unit that can be controlled from an inverter/charger that had some brains. Currently Apollo and the Labs down in New Mexico have a project (funded by our stimulus dollars...) testing this. The future looks bright and of coarse all this applies to heating the home which also is nice!;) Glad your staying cool!

PhilS · July 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I don't know if it's just ME, or MY COMPUTER, or the FORUM.

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=62266#post62266

Phil

Dave Angelini · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I have been taking some data on this wind shield that Sanyo sells. They claim it will save over 5% in KWH if you are in a wind prone area and cannot or do not want to change the direction of the compressor/fan direction in regards to a structure/daily wind pattern. I asked them about just changing the polarity on the DC fan but have not heard back yet...

FYI the adobe file

mike95490 · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

. .....I asked them about just changing the polarity on the DC fan but have not heard back yet...

You can change rotation of a brushed DC fan that way, but an electronic one, will have to change differently.
Something like the drum motor of my new HE front loader washer, 6 revs CW, pause 90 sec, 6 rev CCW, pause 90 sec. It's a direct drive DC motor.

Dave Angelini · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

mike90045 wrote: »

You can change rotation of a brushed DC fan that way, but an electronic one, will have to change differently.
Something like the drum motor of my new HE front loader washer, 6 revs CW, pause 90 sec, 6 rev CCW, pause 90 sec. It's a direct drive DC motor.

You are thinking ahead of me but thanks Mike! I will wait and see what they say. Maybe turn the fan arround 180 the low tech way... Back to work! NOW!

PhilS · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

You are thinking ahead of me but thanks Mike! I will wait and see what they say. Maybe turn the fan arround 180 the low tech way... Back to work! NOW!

I'd think that would be a poor solution.... the fan would be 'sucking' leaves and yard debris into the unit and against the inside of the coils and would be more difficult to keep clean.

On hindsight I might have had better airflow if I'd installed mine parallel to the house instead of a right angle to it since the wind blows parallel to the house. But it works great and I'm not changing anything.

Phil

Dave Angelini · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

PhilS wrote: »

I'd think that would be a poor solution.... the fan would be 'sucking' leaves and yard debris into the unit and against the inside of the coils and would be more difficult to keep clean.

On hindsight I might have had better airflow if I'd installed mine parallel to the house instead of a right angle to it since the wind blows parallel to the house. But it works great and I'm not changing anything.

Phil

Not sure about that one Phil, either way a fan is going to have maintenance but you might be right, less easy to clean. The baffle does help if the fan is blowing out into the wind.

Have you ever had a chance to accurately measure the load amps on the 12,000Btu unit?

PhilS · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Not sure about that one Phil, either way a fan is going to have maintenance but you might be right, less easy to clean. The baffle does help if the fan is blowing out into the wind.

Have you ever had a chance to accurately measure the load amps on the 12,000Btu unit?

We don't get much wind (a windmill at our place would be worthless) but the light breezes we have go one way from mid-morning until late evening, then turn around until the next mid-morning. "up canyon winds" and "down canyon winds". Of course, last night's down-canyon winds brought us the smoke from the 900 acre Bar Fire, about 40 miles away...

I didn't look at load amps. I had a Kill-A-Watt meter on it the last couple of weeks, but including a sat receiver (50w) and an LCD TV (80w), the readout was usually in the 1200 to 1450w range at the highest setting. I compared that with the DC amp reading on the Magnum and they were in line.

The temps have only been in the mid-nineties so we have just been leaving the Sanyo on the lowest speed setting and it's been keeping the house at 77 or lower and only using 300w. When we get back over 100 or 110 I'll put it back to "automatic" and run the gen a couple hours at night if necessary.

Phil

Dave Angelini · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

If you press the high power button on the remote you should go to 130% output and get the max amps. This will stay in this mode for 20 minutes and then go back to the last setting automatically. If you watch the unit over time in any of the fixed power modes except low the power will move around a bit.

I am curious if you are getting a higher reading in this mode! No rush but it would help me with a future install of this size.

Yes it has been a great summer (our best) for nice reasonable weather. Last summer we had the smoke at night from a "controlled" Meadow fire up in the park. It got out of hand a burned some of the best views of Half Dome from hiways 41 and 120. Hope they fired the guy! A little 1KW Honda ran the unit all night during that week. An amazing piece of gear!

I would love to get some data from a user on the 240V Fujitsu mini split units???

Stay cool Phil!

LucMan · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Those wind baffles are primarily used for Low ambient cooling applications, the baffles keep wind from affecting the system pressures during cold weather. No need for them if used for normal heat pump applications. All the manufacturers have now gone to inverter heat pump only production. So even if you need a cooling only unit you purchase the HP.

As far as Fujitsu data it would be the same as any other inverter unit of equal capacity. They are all the same.
If you need any Fujitsu specs. I have them, except for the new Flex system that will be available within the next month.

Dave Angelini · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Thanks Luc, I can get the specs also and have in the past. What I would like is Fujitsu user data which as you know, is very valuable. It is why we test to validate. The absolute BTU value is not as important to me as that the system can limit it's output and with the smart grid or?, be controllable. Good that they have a new model coming, I will take a peak. Thanks!

PhilS · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

If you press the high power button on the remote you should go to 130% output and get the max amps. This will stay in this mode for 20 minutes and then go back to the last setting automatically. If you watch the unit over time in any of the fixed power modes except low the power will move around a bit.

I am curious if you are getting a higher reading in this mode! No rush but it would help me with a future install of this size.

OK, Dave, I put my Kill-A-Watt on the unit. 9 watts with power to it but turned off.

I dropped the program temp to 66 (10 less than room temp was at the time) and hit the High Power button (it was already on cool). I waited about 10 minutes, then read 1350 watts and 12.5 amps AC. During that 10 minute delay, the amps started at 11.7 and topped out at the 12.5.

I also took a reading later with it on low. I got 3 amps and 280 watts.

Phil

Dave Angelini · August 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Thanks Phil!

I needed a sanity check for a customer. The data is very helpful! The next two rounds are on me!

--Dave

XRinger · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

My 24,000 BTU Sanyo has been in operation for about a year now..

I've been having problems with it, but I still think it's a pretty good investment.
For details, see: http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/683-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-diy-install-project.html

This one does have a crankcase heater (which might be DC or AC?) and I'm pretty
sure that you want to leave in warmed up during cold weather.
And maybe do an hour or two pre-heating during nice weather too..

From what I've learned about another model Sanyo, here:
http://www.ajmadison.com/ajmadison/itemdocs/PAC-i_Tech_Data_Service_Manual.pdf
(See page 133)
It looks like the AC comes in and goes right into a diode bridge. A direct AC to DC power supply..

I have not been able to locate this type of schematic for my 24KHS72 system,
but I suspect it might be very similar. Actually a pure DC machine.?.

Wow! there goes the first snow plow of the season..

Cheers,
Rich

techntrek · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I just read through your entire thread, plus the one about the neighborhood over-voltage condition. Have you verified if your unit's amp spikes are "cured" now that your system voltage is lower?

Dave Angelini · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Thanks Rich for the info! Very nice install and hope you will post how you resolve the problems. Are they related to cold weather operation?

XRinger · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

techntrek wrote: »

I just read through your entire thread, plus the one about the neighborhood over-voltage condition. Have you verified if your unit's amp spikes are "cured" now that your system voltage is lower?

There is still a problem with the grid voltage. It still gets too high in the AM.
And, it sure seems like they loaded 36,000 BTU firmware into this 24,000 BTU Sanyo.

XRinger · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Thanks Rich for the info! Very nice install and hope you will post how you resolve the problems. Are they related to cold weather operation?

The spec sheet shows that more power is used for heating.
It's a 24,000 BTU cooler, but it's a 36,000 BTU heater.

We had zero problems during the summer.. It worked great.
But like the heating mode, we were very careful not to request
a 2 deg change in temperature.. One deg at a time works fine.
Ask for 2 degs, and it doesn't step up 1kW in power,
but tries to hit 2kW+.. I've had to baby it a lot..

However, I am so Sold on this inverter type ASHP (air source heat pump),
if this Sanyo turns out to be a lemon, I'll be in the market for
a new one, right away. Maybe a 36,000 BTU next time..

Cheers,
Rich

Dave Angelini · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Rich,

My 9 kbtu works the same in heat mode as yours BTW. Thanks again for the data!

XRinger · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Rich,

My 9 kbtu works the same in heat mode as yours BTW. Thanks again for the data!

Hi Dave,
Are you saying it takes off and tries to use more power than it's rated for??

If so, is it popping breakers or just stopping when it hits over-load or over-pressure?

Please give me some details and if you have any ideas about the cause,
I would be very interested in hearing them.

Thanks,
Rich

PS:
We had another power runaway this morning. I posted about it over at:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/683-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-diy-install-project-25.html#post10523

PhilS · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

XRinger wrote: »

Hi Dave,
Are you saying it takes off and tries to use more power than it's rated for??

If so, is it popping breakers or just stopping when it hits over-load or over-pressure?

Please give me some details and if you have any ideas about the cause,
I would be very interested in hearing them.

Thanks,
Rich

Earlier this week I was running our 12kbtu on heat mode, fan on low. The blower unit "seemed" to be making a little more sound than usual, like it was "trying harder".

Maybe 5 minutes (or less) after it started, the nearby light on the same circuit blinked and the Sanyo shut off. Whatever power event happened, it wasn't enough to reset the TV or satellite receiver that are on the same circuit. I believe the Sanyo initiated the 'event' but couldn't say that positively.

I restarted and it's been fine every day since (but now the fan speed is set to 2). And what I thought may be louder operation noise was gone after that first reset. It only gets run on heat for an hour or so until the woodstove gets going.

I have seen that it takes more power for heat than it does for cool, maybe 50% more? I haven't paid much attention to the temp setting vs the interior temp as was mentioned (keeping it within a degree or two).

I'll post if it happens again.

Phil

LucMan · December 2010

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

XRinger wrote: »

Hi Dave,
Are you saying it takes off and tries to use more power than it's rated for??
PS:
We had another power runaway this morning. I posted about it over at:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/683-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-diy-install-project-25.html#post10523

Most mini split inverters can run at 130% for 10 minutes for faster response.
So if you are turning the unit on and the temperature differential is more than 5-8 degrees the unit will ramp to 130% but the amp draw should still be at or below nameplate amp draw.

Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

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