Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

niel

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

i am aware and use it. i think we've delved enough on the sat tv stuff though unless you want to have another thread.

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Thanks Niel & Phil. I just could not remember and the one person I always go to is off to look for an oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico.

solarvic

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I finally found that sanyo has a split system that is qualifyed for the 30% stimulous tax break. Most dealers seem to be sold out of them. On Sanyo website there is a note that there is a rumor they are getting out of the hvac business and selling out that part of thier business. All they say is that is a rumor and they havn,t announced that. The 2 models are cmh1972 and 09khs71. Trying to find me one of them. They are 110 volt units. S:Dlarvic

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

solarvic wrote: »

I finally found that sanyo has a split system that is qualifyed for the 30% stimulous tax break. Most dealers seem to be sold out of them. On Sanyo website there is a note that there is a rumor they are getting out of the hvac business and selling out that part of thier business. All they say is that is a rumor and they havn,t announced that. The 2 models are cmh1972 and 09khs71. Trying to find me one of them. They are 110 volt units. S:Dlarvic

If you read thru the beginning of this thread there is a link to the AC business we used to buy 4 of these systems. They were great! Check-it out!

solarvic

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Thanks Dave, That was the same place I was thinking of buying from. They are sold out so I called them and they have 300 more ordered that should arrive end of May. They already have some of them reserved. I think I will call tomorrow and get mine reserved. S:Dlarvic

PhilS

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

solarvic wrote: »

Thanks Dave, That was the same place I was thinking of buying from. They are sold out so I called them and they have 300 more ordered that should arrive end of May. They already have some of them reserved. I think I will call tomorrow and get mine reserved. S:Dlarvic

I wouldn't be surprised if PART of the reason they are sold out is because of Dave
Sparks, and this thread

Later this week I'll be changing the 'mode' on ours from heat to cool (yeah, I know there's an 'auto' but I like having more control).

Phil

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

You had better be careful Phil with all the accolades. You might see someone up near your place taking all that Manzanita you have squirreled away...

I have been trying this method of running a small SOTA heat pump unit on low all day at one of my old Navy buddies grid tie house. He has a 1 KW array and he is just trying to zero out his HVAC. So far so good! News at 11.

retrodog

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

You had better be careful Phil with all the accolades. You might see someone up near your place taking all that Manzanita you have squirreled away...

I have been trying this method of running a small SOTA heat pump unit on low all day at one of my old Navy buddies grid tie house. He has a 1 KW array and he is just trying to zero out his HVAC. So far so good! News at 11.

Any updates on this?

mike95490

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Thanks Niel & Phil. I just could not remember and the one person I always go to, is off to look for an oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico.

How's finding that leak coming ??

wtwoods_az

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Hi Dave: Could not agree with you more about the Mini-Splits. I bought 2 Mitsubishi MSZFE12NA / MUZFE12NA 1-ton units for my home near Phoenix in AZ. from AC Wholesalers. 23 SEER with Heat Pump option. They run all day off my solar panels and, so far at least, the house usually starts out ~ 70 in the am and gets to a max of ~ 76 near sunset. This is in a house originally equipped with TWO 3-ton monsters. I have yet to turn them on this year. (We'll see if that holds, July is just getting started....). They are a bit more expensive than most at $1700/each, but I wanted the most efficient I could get to keep the cost of the entire solar system in check. They are tax credit certified, so 30% off. Happy so far!

You are right, it is a bit funny about the inverter models converting volatge so many times. Before buying these, I looked for a straight DC model, but the only thing I found was a "SolCool", which at the time looked like it was never going to get off the ground. Looks like it finally did but Holy Cow, an 11,000 unit is $4400!

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

mike90045 wrote: »

How's finding that leak coming ??

They have found the source but they have found that the ocean swell is really not swell after all.:roll:

Retrodog, no data yet as it will take a year to pay back the KWH for the summer cooling. It is about 5KWH per day useage set on medium or 73F. About a 4 AAC load from the 9,000 btu sanyo. This into a 1600 sqft home. On the hottest days some of the rooms are closed and the unit goes on at 9am.

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

wtwoods_az wrote: »

Hi Dave: Could not agree with you more about the Mini-Splits. I bought 2 Mitsubishi MSZFE12NA / MUZFE12NA 1-ton units for my home near Phoenix in AZ. from AC Wholesalers. 23 SEER with Heat Pump option. They run all day off my solar panels and, so far at least, the house usually starts out ~ 70 in the am and gets to a max of ~ 76 near sunset. This is in a house originally equipped with TWO 3-ton monsters. I have yet to turn them on this year. (We'll see if that holds, July is just getting started....). They are a bit more expensive than most at $1700/each, but I wanted the most efficient I could get to keep the cost of the entire solar system in check. They are tax credit certified, so 30% off. Happy so far!

You are right, it is a bit funny about the inverter models converting volatge so many times. Before buying these, I looked for a straight DC model, but the only thing I found was a "SolCool", which at the time looked like it was never going to get off the ground. Looks like it finally did but Holy Cow, an 11,000 unit is $4400!

Nice! Yes crazy conversions but the powerfactor is nice so I can't complain too much! Tell me please, do the Mitsubishi's allow you to also set the power load as the Sanyo does by setting the fan speed in combination with the programed temperature differential? They are 220VAC correct? Thanks!

retrodog

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

They have found the source but they have found that the ocean swell is really not swell after all.:roll:

Retrodog, no data yet as it will take a year to pay back the KWH for the summer cooling. It is about 5KWH per day useage set on medium or 73F. About a 4 AAC load from the 9,000 btu sanyo. This into a 1600 sqft home. On the hottest days some of the rooms are closed and the unit goes on at 9am.

So am I understanding this correctly? They are adequately cooling a 1600 sqft house with a 9000 btu unit? Ok, maybe a little smaller during the heat of the day, but is this correct? And what's the typical outside temperature? Are these little split units really so efficient that they will do this? And what's more, I got the impression from your statement that they are running it on a medium setting (6000 btu?). Is that true?

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

You can read all about this in the beginning of this thread.

retrodog

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

You can read all about this in the beginning of this thread.

Doh!!! Yes, thank you. I went back and read it.

Very interesting. I didn't see this asked anywhere so I guess I'll ask here...

1. Could the inside part be window mounted with a custom adapter? I'd be interested in doing a temporary install and have a window that would be perfect. It has a sill and free room on the inside to each side of the window, with no frame.

2. If someone wanted to remove the system and move to another house/building, would that necessitate tube disconnects, resulting in a freon release and the need to recharge at the new location/installation?

Thanks for your help and thanks for posting about this here. Very interesting subject.

I'm working on the design of a tiny house/cabin and think one of these systems would be perfect for it. It will be my retirement house and out in the middle of my property, off the grid and away from any power sources. The goal of my immediate experiments with solar and wind are to get experience for future building plans of the new place.

PhilS

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I'll step in here...

1. I don't see any reason why not

2. At least with this Sanyo, all you have to do is operate the valves and unit per instructions and all the freon will go back into the unit. You shut the valves and it's as it was when first purchased, freon stored internally.

I found that feature very interesting.

Phil

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Hey Phil!
Keep in mind that it works best up at least 5 feet high!

PhilS

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Yeah, Dave, IIRC it's best 5 or 6" below the ceiling although I mounted mine about 3" below the ceiling height. Since it'd only be a temporary install I can't see where it'll matter too much.

The fact that it "evacuates" and stores its own freon still amazes me.

Phil

retrodog

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

PhilS wrote: »

I'll step in here...

1. I don't see any reason why not

2. At least with this Sanyo, all you have to do is operate the valves and unit per instructions and all the freon will go back into the unit. You shut the valves and it's as it was when first purchased, freon stored internally.

I found that feature very interesting.

Phil

Thanks. That is a very cool feature. (Pun only partially intended.)

JESSICA

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

drees wrote: »

Actually, AC compressors generally have sump-heaters to keep the oil separated from the refrigerant.

Some are not so smart and run all the time - others have thermostat switches or other controls so that the heat is only added when needed.

I would make sure that the "vampire" draw on the Sanyo isn't being used for a compressor heater - if it is, you want to make sure you power up the system without running it for a day before using it to make sure the oil/refrigerant has fully separated.

Otherwise, early compressor wear and failure will result.

It seems nobody in this forum ever addressed this possibility, not even Dave.

Does the Sanyo have the "sump-heater" mentioned by drees in that post?
If it does, would it be absolutely necessary to keep the power up even when the unit is not running?

LucMan

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

The heater is called a "crankcase heater" and most compressors have them to keep liquid refrigerant from condensing in the compressor crankcase (the bottom of the compressor where the oil is stored) during the off cycle. The oil lubricates the bearings and the internal moving parts of the compressor.
Small amounts of this oil circulate along with the refrigerant through the refrigeration system during normal operation as they are miscible.
Compressors are designed to pump only refrigerant in the gas state as liquid does not compress.
Refrigerant in the gas state migrates to the lowest & coldest spot and condenses into the liquid state.
If the crankcase heater is turned off liquid refrigerant will condense in the bottom of the compressor as it would be exposed to low outdoor ambient temps.
If the compressor then starts there is a mixture of oil and liquid refrigerant that will be pumped out of the compressor through the pistons, vanes or rotors depending on the design of the compressor. As I mentioned before liquid does not compress, mechanical failure of the internal parts will result IE Broken valves, connecting rods etc. Rotary compressors ( Sanyo, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, etc) are less likely to be damaged from compressing the liquid refrigerant but are still susceptible to oil pump out.
If the compressor does manage to pump for a few minutes under these conditions usually all of the oil is pumped out of the crankcase into the refrigeration system leaving little or no oil to lubricate the internal compressor components, scoring the bearings etc.
Todays compressors are extremely durable and should last as long or longer than the rest of the system if they are operated and maintained properly.

So if you turn the power off to the unit for more than a few hours- turn the power back on for a minimum of 24 hrs before you run the unit.
Or leave the power on to be safe.

Solar Guppy

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I wouldn't say most have the heater, only none scroll compressors have them and most newer systems are scrolls.

JESSICA

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

LucMan: Impressive. Thanks for your advise.

Guppy: You wrotte:

Solar Guppy wrote: »

I wouldn't say most have the heater, only none scroll compressors have them and most newer systems are scrolls.

How do we know if the Sanyo mini-split is/is not "scroll" type?
It will be difficult for me not to turn off power to the unit; and much more difficult to turn it on 24 hours before starting the unit!

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

The way I know this is not a problem is I turn power off for months sometimes. I was told by an Engineer at Sanyo who gave me a beta unit that there is not a problem with complete powerdown as we do this all the time off-grid.

Also, for lowest power consumption you do need to vacumm down the line set before operation. He told me about a 5% increase in current was typical if this is not done.

JESSICA

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

The way I know this is not a problem is I turn power off for months sometimes. I was told by an Engineer at Sanyo who gave me a beta unit that there is not a problem with complete powerdown as we do this all the time off-grid.

Also, for lowest power consumption you do need to vacumm down the line set before operation. He told me about a 5% increase in current was typical if this is not done.

Dave:

Sanyo's manual of operation, page 4:

"Do not turn the air conditioner on and off from the power mains switch.
Use the ON/OFF operation button."
You can find it here: http://us.sanyo.com/dynamic/product/Downloads/UserManualKS91271Series-15912904.pdf

PhilS

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

JESSICA wrote: »

Dave:

Sanyo's manual of operation, page 4:

"Do not turn the air conditioner on and off from the power mains switch.
Use the ON/OFF operation button."
You can find it here: http://us.sanyo.com/dynamic/product/Downloads/UserManualKS91271Series-15912904.pdf

I would interpret that to mean we shouldn't turn the unit on/off with the power mains switch. And we don't. We turn it off with the on/off button on the remote, then after waiting for the flap to close, kill power to the unit. I usually give it 10 or 15 seconds, and when the house is being "sitted" I tell them to wait a minute before killing power.

Otherwise the flap would remain open, if nothing else.

I also wait 10 - 15 seconds after applying power before I turn it on with the power button. I don't have a good reason for that tho.

Phil

wtwoods_az

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Hi Dave (and all): Yes, the Mitsubishi Units I purchased are 240VAC units and have the IR remote with all the bells and whistles. Fan speed, temp, mode, horizontal and vertical vane position and even a sensor that detects if the right or left area in front of the condenser is hot and directs more cool that way. Installed them myself, was not hard, and I am super happy so far. It got to 113 in my backyard today here and the two units were set at 70 while I was working. Came home around 6pm and while I can't say that they kept the whole house at 70, I can say that the main hallway thermostats only read 76. Not bad. Really happy so far.

Awesome thread you started Dave. 11K hits, holy cow, people are interested in the mini-splits I think. The FedEx guy that delivered my second unit said it was the 5th one on his truck THAT DAY.

Bill

JESSICA

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

PhilS wrote: »

I would interpret that to mean we shouldn't turn the unit on/off with the power mains switch. And we don't. We turn it off with the on/off button on the remote, then after waiting for the flap to close, kill power to the unit. I usually give it 10 or 15 seconds, and when the house is being "sitted" I tell them to wait a minute before killing power.

Phil

PhilS:
Maybe your interpretation is the right one. I myself wait a few minutes after turning the unit off with the remote to disconnect power, and I reconnect power at least 30 minutes before turning it on again. But there still remain the doubt in my mind: Is it true what LucMan said, that we should “turn the power back on for a minimum of 24 hrs before you run the unit.
Or leave the power on to be safe. ???

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

My contact at Sanyo told me that these units are used all over the world in places where there is no way a technician is going to vacuum down a line set. He also told me that they are used in Iraq where they have 9 hours a day of electricity. Now if you beleive that people over there wait for 24 hours before using their air conditioning you should follow the manual. If you are grid-tied why in the ----
would you even care?

If the 9 watt idle power is something more than a dumb controller as was suggested I am willing to take that risk. I am getting close to the end of the 3 year warranty and my home was used on their website. They took care of me!

The strategy that we are using off-grid of running from sunrise to sunset on a much smaller than reccomended compressor was one of the things that concerned Sanyo. They seemed to think that there could be more wear but that the increased wear might be offset by the fact that we very rarely run at full BTU with this strategy.

Off-grid has always been the cutting edge for new ideas. That is how I feel and have felt since I first got chance to do this kind of thing at HP in the late 70's.
Go for it!

retrodog

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Don't kick me if this is already posted somewhere...

I just talked to a guy at minisplitsystems.com about their store brand unit (ambience). He claimed that it was built at the same factory as the Sanyo. Their 12,000 BTU version with heatpump is just under $1,000. Are they really built with the Sanyos and are they ok?

http://www.minisplitsystems.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=12WHRDC1