Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

"Play it safe and find a contractor to install."

This is not really true ! Sanyo states a Licenced HVAC person for start-up to validate warranty! I can back this up from the mini-split web site where I saw several instances of warranty work without any problems. Also some of the places I go offgrid there are very few contractors that will go there a first time let alon twice.


PhilS Nice to here it worked well! Why are you not running off the solar? The routine I have been using is running on low speed at sunrise (7am) and then changing speeds as the battery finishes most of absorbtion. This around 10 AM. Also the set-point gets lowered as the room temp comes down to get ahead of the afternoon heat. Isee about 1,100 watts max but try and keep the unit running at 800 watts after the batteries charge. As the sun goes down the last hour, we are back at low speed using 300watts and the room is at 75F.

The key to all this working well is not programming more than 4F lower than the current room temp. It would be nice to automate this and I am told by Sanyo that this line will be better soon. I am still in awe of how well this works right now!

PhilS

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

PhilS Nice to here it worked well! Why are you not running off the solar?

I'm MOSTLY running it off the solar. But I've only got a 2100W array so when the Sanyo is running full-on late in the day, it's been making more sense to run it (and charge batteries) off of the genset rather than deplete the charge. There are other things drawing power too: washer, dryer, sat receiver & TV, fridge, lights, etc.

Another bank of panels will be installed soon. Figuring on 720W or 780W. I used to get an afternoon's worth of float, then I ditched the propane fridges for electric (another thread). Only got about 45 minutes of float at best after that. Now with this cooler no float at all. I fully anticipated 6 more panels and mentally budgeted them into the final equation.

I should get them ordered this week.

Phil

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Still very happy with the Sanyo mini split after a 100F + weekend. This is in a string of 3 nights where we did not cool below 75F. Very unusual at this altitude and 10 days per year is our average for this kind of weather. I was at my neighbors house who has the 9,000btu and she ran a Honda 2000i after sunset. The unit which does not surge was easily started and ran in the 1,200 btu high power range at about 11 aac.

icarus

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

To revive a bit of an old thread, but another question.

The mini split shows ~ 14k btu of heat available, but they don't say at what outside temp. Now where can I find a spec that shows heat output variance with temp. So if electricity has ~3300 btu/kwh, how does a mini spilts 14,000 btu compare drawing ~1300 watts, or 1.3kwh/14k btu. Does anyone have a charge showing the effect of temperature on output?

Thanks

Tony

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Tony,

I do know that they have a option to order for cooler climates. As far as being good heater I never looked into the math as the application is for offgrid as a load for excess electricity. Mainly after the battery has charged or during the time when excess power is available. Sorry I can't help. I would think there are far better ways to heat but what makes this great for offgrid is there are not very many ways to use the excess energy other than pumping or heating water.

icarus

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I am not considering this specifically for my off grid application, but see if it makes any sense for a small heating load where one might install a Hi-ef Rinnai space heater for example. On a dollar for dollar basis, or BTU/BTU basis, the question is, how does the mini-split heat pump compare?

Tony

GreenerPower

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Th = Tc*COP / (COP-1)

Th = temp. hot side in Kelvin (273 + temp. in C)
Tc = temp. cold side in Kelvin (273 + temp. in C)
COP = Coefficient Of Performance

GP

LucMan

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

icarus wrote: »

To revive a bit of an old thread, but another question.

The mini split shows ~ 14k btu of heat available, but they don't say at what outside temp. Now where can I find a spec that shows heat output variance with temp. So if electricity has ~3300 btu/kwh, how does a mini spilts 14,000 btu compare drawing ~1300 watts, or 1.3kwh/14k btu. Does anyone have a charge showing the effect of temperature on output?

Thanks

Tony

When companies rate the heat pumps & mini splits heating capacity it is always at 47 degrees dry bulb and 43 degrees wet bulb.
The low temp rating is at 17 degrees. The charts are published and usually can be down loaded from the manufacturer's web site.
There are some new lower ambient temp hyper heat models available as the technology is constantly improving. These will operate down to -5 degrees but the efficiency at that temp is comparable to straight electric.
I f you are interested in heat pumps check out the Hallowell Acadia cold climate heat pump.
Do a search for Heating Fuel Comparision Calculator " heatcalc" excellent freeware fuel cost calculator

GreenerPower

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Maybe a better way to compare is the EER (BTUs/Watt, should have been BTUs/WattHr to be technically correct).
From this you can compare the cost of 100,000 BTU (1-therm) between conventional heating and heatpump.

Unfortunately both COP and EER change with temp. So as Lucman said, they standardize to some "common" temp.
GP

Brock

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Just as a ball park they are typically in the 3 to 4 COP range around the 47F mark and then fall to about 1 to 1 or COP of 0 about 20F. As others have mentioned some units are better at colder temps, but unless you can find the one for the specific unit it's just a ball park guess.

The other thing to consider is at 30F or below they do run a defrost mode more often as it gets colder. So really once you’re below that point they are about the same as electric resistant, again this is a generalization, some are better some worse.

icarus

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

So without going into too much analysis it sounds like in a very moderate climate they might make a good replacement for small electric or gas or oiled fired space heater, but as ambient gets colder any advantage (on the heat side) is diminished. If one doesn't have a reason to need A/C then one would be better off using a high ef gas space heater such as a Rinnai.

Tony

PS Thanks for the input guys!

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

icarus wrote: »

So without going into too much analysis it sounds like in a very moderate climate they might make a good replacement for small electric or gas or oiled fired space heater, but as ambient gets colder any advantage (on the heat side) is diminished. If one doesn't have a reason to need A/C then one would be better off using a high ef gas space heater such as a Rinnai.

Tony

PS Thanks for the input guys!

I can't remember what your application was but for offgrid a heat pump for heating is very valuable as a load for a micro-hyro, solar, or a wind generator. If there is renewable energy available that is unused a heat pump is the best thing there is (right now) after you have charged your battery.

The Fugitsu models for 240VAC might be even better for heating as their SEER for AC is over 26.

GreenerPower

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

For the 18K-BTU Sanyo split heat pump, the SEER is 20 (from their web site)
Under "standard conditions", this translates to:
* Assuming 10c/KWhr cost, 55c per 100,000 BTUs
* For reference, at NG cost of 85c / CCF, a 80% efficiency gas furnace would cost $1.04 per 100,000 BTUs

Scale these figures to your actual situation to estimate your costs.

GP

LucMan

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Here is the web site for heatcalc in xls format. Try it you'll like it.
www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

PhilS

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

An update:

I put another 1KW bank of panels up last summer, w/ FM60 controlling. (total 3KW) With the Sanyo on the appliance circuit, when we started the dryer, its glow bar would cause the Sanyo to shut down from low power if the washer was on too. That circuit runs from a Magnum MS2812.

I installed a Xantrex ProWatt 2.0 for our "lights and entertainment" circuit (replaced a ProSine 1.0), moved the Sanyo to that circuit, and it functioned fine all summer. The max draw from the Sanyo was 1600W (I bought a KillAWatt). Only IF the Sanyo was running full on, IF we turned on another load, like the computer (in addition to the Sanyo, TV, satellite, a few lights) it'd "brownout" that circuit enough that the TV and sat and Sanyo would restart. We lived with it and adapted our energy usage.

The ProWatt had only an 1800W continuous rating and we would, when the Sanyo was full on, be running 1850 with the other normal loads. No problem unless we added the computer or my bathroom lights (7 lighted beer signs). And only then because I'd forget, switch on the bathroom and reset the TV, sat, and Sanyo. "DANG it, I forgot again".

I attempted to "cheap out", tho it rarely works. The ProWatt was only $350. It's not like I didn't know better. $1500 less than another MS2812.

We have been using the Sanyo for heat lately, waiting for the woodstove to catch up. Same scenario... turn on the bathroom lights, everything wigs out. Worse than summer because within 15 minutes the Sanyo is running full on at 1600W trying to heat the house.

This week I installed a second MS2812 on the "lights, entertainment, Sanyo" circuit. We can now run all loads with no problem. Washer, dryer, TV, sat, Sanyo, computer, bathroom beer lights, fridge, microwave, everything all at the same time.

Very NICE! And what I should've done last summer.

Between the electric refrigerator and this Sanyo, it's like we've re-entered the twentieth century (never mind the rest of the country is in the 21st).

So for the umpteenth time.... thank you DAVE SPARKS for starting this thread!

Phil

BB.

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Phil,

Nothing like reading a nice story about your successes.

-Bill

russ

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

@LucMan - the calculator seems to be an excellent tool! Thanks

icarus

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Phil,

Sounds positively civilized! I bet you wish I would send the BZ controller back and that would make your system perfect. While I am at it, I send you my Servel Kerosene Fridge (still works,,,sort of, if you like everything to taste like kerosene!) just to keep you well grounded. Me,, I prefer to live in the 19th century.

Nice wrap up of info. The way things are going, I may have to install A/C sometime soon. Maybe I will figure out a way to pump lake water from the deep in mid summer and circ it through a exchanger to cool the place...Interesting,,,

Tony

Ralph Day

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

From how deep do you think you'd have to pump the cold water Tony? Have you ever monitored the water temp to any specific depth? A/c at a remote place like yours...of course, last August was a scorcher for a few weeks, lie there and sweat while you try to get to sleep.

Enjoy the cold while we can. It's so Canadian to complain about the cold and heat of our temperate climate.

Ralph

icarus

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Ralph,

I almost never complain about the cold,, except perhaps in August!

I always thought that our lake stratified pretty significantly in the summer. The surface temps will reach ~22c (72f+-) in August. Interestingly enough, a number of years ago, I testing the temp at various depths, and found that it varied very little below ~10' from the surface. If memory serves it was ~55-60f, maybe 12-15c. I suspect that I would have to go very deep to find water much colder. We are a headwater lake, right on the Arctic watershed height of land. It is quite deep compared to others, perhaps ~125' in it's deepest pockets.

Interestingly enough, it wasn't August that was so bad for us, but September. August was cold an rainy, Sept hot, and still. We swam until Oct 2 in 20'c (68f) water. Of course it started to snow on October 5th! Didn't freeze over until the second week of December though.

Tony

russ

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Viessman manufacturers ground source heat pumps but without a cooling side so they emphasize what they call 'natural cooling' - utilizing underground lower temperature to cool water to recirculate through fan coils. They have decent information on their web site to see what they propose.

Works OK where the ground temp is low enough - here İ have 16 deg C (61F) well water so would not have worked. You probably need about 10 deg C temperature water to the fan coil to get the delta T to make them work in a satisfactory manner.

***********
The newest style of heat pumps use CO2 as a refrigerant - works to a much lower temperature than the traditional heat pump. These have been popular in Japan for years but are only now being made available around the world. One name is Daikin ecocute.

homerramirez

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Hi guys.

not being negative, last month we had in Van Alstyne Tx. temperature down to 10 F ( wind chill of 5 F )and my 21,000 btu had hard time keeping up heating our 1350 sq. ft. home, we closed all bedrooms and bathroom doors, the mini split kept cycling ON and OFF every 15 min. (it could be because it was defrosting itself), once the outside temp around 30 F it performed as expected.

the summer monts it reduced about half of my cooling cost and this winter bacause the low? temps about 30% of my heating bill. still Im happy with it.

PhilS

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

homerramirez wrote: »

Hi guys.

not being negative, last month we had in Van Alstyne Tx. temperature down to 10 F ( wind chill of 5 F )and my 21,000 btu had hard time keeping up heating our 1350 sq. ft. home, we closed all bedrooms and bathroom doors, the mini split kept cycling ON and OFF every 15 min. (it could be because it was defrosting itself), once the outside temp around 30 F it performed as expected.

the summer monts it reduced about half of my cooling cost and this winter bacause the low? temps about 30% of my heating bill. still Im happy with it.

DANG Homer!! Ten freakin' degrees in Texas!?!? I've always heard that heat pumps are very inefficient in extreme cold, and that certainly is what you are living in. You might as well be in New Hampshire!

I won't whine about our current 43 degrees w/ rain. The Sanyo is keeping the house warm because our firewood pile hasn't been replenished because of the rain we have been getting in No Cal.... I'm not complaining 'cause we need the water badly. I'm hoping there'll be a break, otherwise I'll be out with tractor and chainsaw in the rain later today. Luckily (?) I can cut manzanita today and be burning it tonight ... it doesn't HAVE to be seasoned.

Using the Sanyo to HEAT the house was never my intention, but it's sure nice to have the option. When we were using it to cool 1) as Dave recommended, we'd set the timer to KEEP the house cool, rather than trying to cool down a hot house and 2) that smaller inverter worked fine for that, as the Sanyo rarely was running full power, usually just 3 or 400W, and with longer days there wasn't as much of a load on it for lighting. It's only when we started using it for heat that the smaller inverter was a problem.

But, all things considered, things are pretty good now.

Phil

System2

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

just jumped into this discussion ...

Anyone have any experience with an all DC system ? ...

http://www.securusair.com/techspecs.html

would there be a way to make a Sanyo or Fujitsu all DC ?

Do the outback inverters run 220 V ?

i have a 48 volt system and was thinking of an inverter similar to this to run the fujitsu...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390146062692&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

the Fujitsu seems to be more efficient

icarus

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

homerramirez wrote: »

Hi guys.

not being negative, last month we had in Van Alstyne Tx. temperature down to 10 F ( wind chill of 5 F )and my 21,000 btu had hard time keeping up heating our 1350 sq. ft. home, we closed all bedrooms and bathroom doors, the mini split kept cycling ON and OFF every 15 min. (it could be because it was defrosting itself), once the outside temp around 30 F it performed as expected.

the summer monts it reduced about half of my cooling cost and this winter bacause the low? temps about 30% of my heating bill. still Im happy with it.

10 degrees,, why that is sunbathing weather!

On the other hand it is right around freezing tonight with freezing rain! YUK! Supposed to to back to near normal later in the week, -17c for a high, -24 for a low. (~0/-12f)


Bright sunshine though,

T

solarvic

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

jmygann wrote: »

just jumped into this discussion ...

Anyone have any experience with an all DC system ? ...

http://www.securusair.com/techspecs.html

would there be a way to make a Sanyo or Fujitsu all DC ?

Do the outback inverters run 220 V ?

i have a 48 volt system and was thinking of an inverter similar to this to run the fujitsu...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390146062692&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

the Fujitsu seems to be more efficient

The inverters appear not to be pure sine wave. They are calling them SPS and explain that to mean SEMI PURE SINEWAVE. I understand that to mean they are trying to pawn that the inverters are Pure Sinewave. I would want pure sinewave inverters. I wanted to buy a mitsubushi air conditioner but didn,t because of finances. Bought a Harbor point 12,000 btu with a panisonic compressor. It is 20 seer and qualifys for the 30% tax rebate. 115 volt. I looked for a fujitsu but didn,t find any that were anymore efficient than the mitsubishi. I am trying to eliminate all 220 volt loads except the water pump which I plan to power thru a transformer. Also bought the tamarac attic ventilator fan. hoping this will keep my home confortable with the one ventless air conditioner. I do still have 2 window units and could use the smallest one in my bedroom if needed. S:Dlarvic

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

solarvic wrote: »

I wanted to buy a mitsubushi air conditioner but didn,t because of finances. Bought a Harbor point 12,000 btu with a panisonic compressor. S:Dlarvic

Does this system when run on the low speed / programmed temp lock the power useage down to 300 to 400 watts max? Thanx!

mike95490

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

solarvic wrote: »

... I am trying to eliminate all 220 volt loads except the water pump which I plan to power thru a transformer....

Does your pump control switch, control the 110V input of the transformer ? Otherwise a large transformer, sitting powered, unloaded, is a constant wattage drain. Not a lot, but if you are off grid, it adds up in a week, while your pump is only on maybe 1% of the time.

solarvic

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave, I can,t tell you about how low a power setting the harborpoint will run at. It has a sleep mode that is suposed to run slower and quieter. I paid 1199.00 for an 18,000 btu with a 20 seer rating with the lines and wireing included. It qualifys for the 30% tax break so My thinking it has to be preety eficient or it wouldn,t qualify. I looked for some sanyo,s but got tired of looking. They seemed to not advertise the seer rating and everytime I clicked on one the seer rateing was too low for me. I am wondering if the Fujitso is related to the Mitsubishi. I was reading a description and toward the end it mentioned mitsubushi. Wonder if the seller messed up or they are related. Looks like mitsubushi and Fujitsu have the highest seer rating. I saw up to 26 seer for them. Solarvic

solarvic

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

mike90045 wrote: »

Does your pump control switch, control the 110V input of the transformer ? Otherwise a large transformer, sitting powered, unloaded, is a constant wattage drain. Not a lot, but if you are off grid, it adds up in a week, while your pump is only on maybe 1% of the time.

Mike I will let the pressure switch run the transformer. Probably all I would need the transformer for unless I decide to get a 240 volt inverter air conditioner. I am grid tied but probably will set up an offgrid system for power outages since I have all components except batterys. Got a lot of other projects first. S:Dlarvic