Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

We will get these in the USA in about 10 to 12 years..

Looks pretty nice! But, "No reverse cycle defrost. Utilises hot gas injection defrosting"??

I'll bet that means they have a heating element on the R410A input side to the outdoor coil. (during heating).
Just crank a few KW of resistance heating into the R410A, and before you know it, the ice and snow are clear..

I kinda like the old Sanyo reverse cycle defrost. Since the indoor fan stays off,
it takes a little longer to get rid of the ice, but it does it cheaply.. 8)

I've done it manually a few times, by using cooling mode. Works really fast,
and puts some cold air in the house. But, if you aren't in tee-shirt & shorts, it's not too bad..
Only takes 5 or 10 minutes, depending on your ice layer.


I'm thinking of doing a study of defrost cycles.. I'm putting together some gear
that will the monitor weather and my Sanyo units.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/1871-webcontrol-universal-industrial-controller.html#post17352

It should be very easy to tell when the systems start defrosting.
I can have some PLC code send me emails with all the data needed
to show what weather conditions triggered the defrost cycle and
maybe what kind of power use was occurring, just before the cycle started.

I've got a feeling that maybe a lot of power is wasted due to ice buildup,
before the defrost cycle starts up.
If that's true, then I may be able to spot the trend and intervene somehow.


Cheers,
Rich

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Sounds like you are all over that setup Rich! The Mitsu's seem to state some reclaimation of wasted heat to do this defrosting. I dunno.

I see some outdoor units of various brands can be fitted with a base heater. Kind of a gorilla meets butterfly approach I guess but semi effective until the poco bill comes in.

In 10 years, with much debate, I suspect we may be swapping transformers for reactors on the pole tops...heh. Great system specs on that Cheeky Kai Zen system nonetheless. I see it has a smaller sibling that has specs similar (almost identical) to the H2i Mitsu's. Think it's the Squeaky Kai Zen or sumthin'....

This reminds me, I need tol get to the basement to change out the defrost sensor in my HPWH...later

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Going by Wiki a SEER of 26 would be rougly an EER of 15. So how is EER = 5 good?

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

techntrek wrote: »

Going by Wiki a SEER of 26 would be rougly an EER of 15. So how is EER = 5 good?

I think that rating should have been listed as a COP of 5.

A COP (The Coefficient of Performance) of 5 is pretty dang good..

"COP may also be used for domestic heating. An electric heater has a COP of 1.
Each watt of power consumed produces 1 Watt of heat. Conventional heat pumps
have COPs of 2 - 5, delivering 2 to 5 times the energy they consume."


The rating for my old Sanyo units are:
♦ SEER: 17
♦ EER: 10.3
♦ COP: 3.41
♦ HSPF: 8.5

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Yes just figured i'd list the typo as written on their site. COP 5.0 is magnificent, and the name is simply to die for....like....:D

T-minus 22 hours and counting.........:grr

Can anyone recommend a good cheap way to monitor my splits so some useful data on efficiencies can be measured? A test routine, plan or proceedure?

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

SteveK wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a good cheap way to monitor my splits so some useful data on efficiencies can be measured? A test routine, plan or proceedure?

The TED units can collect power use data. Just hook the probes over the 240v pair, in the panel.

But, I've had problems with my TED display. It can't hear too good if you are using any light dimmers or CFL in your house.. :grr


I'm really getting interested in what can be done with the little CAI board.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/1871-webcontrol-universal-industrial-controller.html#post17352

I think there is a good possibility of being able to collect
1. power use data (with $9 current probes)
2. outdoor weather data (temperature & humidity)
3. indoor temperature
4. temperature of the R410A going in and coming out of my two outdoor units. (4 more heat sensors)


That seems like enough raw information to for me to easily see if one system is working better than the other.
Once enough data was collected to form a benchmark (of heating & cooling performance),
then spotting problems (like slow R410A leaks) later on, should be easy..



I'm waiting for the DS18B20 temperature sensors to show up from China..
I hope to obtain a few of the current sensors locally soon.

If I can get the hardware working, the PLC coding shouldn't be too hard.
The worst case program would have the board sending me an email
every 20-30 minutes with all the measurement data. (Email data logging?)

Then, all I would need is an Email mining program!
And, it would not require leaving a PC running over night.
(Which would be nice to avoid).

Maybe I need some kind of logging program in the 'cloud', to mine the CAI status page 24-7..?. :roll:

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

So I guess the simple equation would be Watts resistive / Watts split so to speak.

I would think a control sample would need to be done using a strictly resistive heater in one of the rooms.

Embed the temperature sensor doing the logging in a fairly large thermal mass ie a book.

Let the room cool to a certain temperature and record.

Then adjust the setpoint of the heater up several degrees while recording the KWH useage to get there.

Repeat the test with the split in place of the resistive heater after letting the rooms thermal mass stabilize first.

Calculate (KWH measured at resistive line in) / (KWH measured at split line in)

All of this would need to be done under the same exterior environmental conditions like temperature, humidity and time of day (night would be better I suppose).

This test would allow me to determine COP atleast, getting me closer to a final answer. And this would need to be done at multiple points of exterior temperature too so maybe, 10, 25, 40F to derive the range of efficiency.

Or, maybe just call it pudding and believe the published specs..:cool:

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

"Or, maybe just call it pudding and believe the published specs.."??

That's proof that you're not a real nerd..

I'm not really interested if these things meet some spec in a manual,
I know that I'm never going to be able to duplicate their test setup..
And I'll never know if I made a good deal or not. (spec wise).

My goal in measuring performance, is to know when things are working right..
The SG2 in my car tells me my MPG as I drive. I know the car is working right, (for me)
and I'm not being a lead-foot..

I tend to enjoy life more when I'm not wasting excess mola..
And, enjoying life is what it's all about.. 8)

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Rich, I slip in and out of geekology. My interest is exactly how well the unit is performing and just how much money I am losing by burning electrons instead of coal. You wanna talk cheap and dirty? Talk coalese....lol

Coal, the only fuel that smells like a fart when burned, costs about the same too, and feels almost as good...

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

H2i's are in and are wonderful things. Very impressed with the installation. The guys did a great job with still some details to finish up in the morning. These things really throw the heat. The iSee sensor is pretty neat, sweeping back and forth. I hope there isn't a camera in there...

The installation is like a brick outhouse. No chance of anyone walking away with these to easily. They are insanely quiet. I'm psyched.

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Very happy to hear that, confirms my own decision to go with that model. I'll be very interested in hearing about your low temp performance if you get a cold snap in the near future.

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Techntrek, I feel a bit sedistic wishing for some abnormally cold weather for test purposes. Does that make me a bad person?...muwahahaha

Seriously though, I'll keep in touch here on this thread if any problems arise. Something tells me you will have an easy peazy time installing these yourself. The brackets they used are not the one's commomly found at most of the online websites and were not Mitsubishi branded either though they are the same color.

I will add that the pressure test with 300psi nitrogen revealed some very minute leaks in the lines while watching them every step of the way. They needed to retweak 4 out of eight of them for some seriously small leaks at the fittings. This is something I feel I may have missed.

Just sayin'

Good luck and hope to read of your conquest sooner than later!..8)

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

LOL, yeah I guess it would be wrong to wish for an early 10 F cold front... but with all the rain this year I think it is going to be a long, hard winter no matter what you wish for. The freak October storm is just the beginning.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

SteveK wrote: »

I will add that the pressure test with 300psi nitrogen revealed some very minute leaks in the lines while watching them every step of the way. They needed to retweak 4 out of eight of them for some seriously small leaks at the fittings. This is something I feel I may have missed.

That seems a little odd.. Even 60% tight, I've never seen a flare leak..(Maybe just lucky).
Were they using torque wrenches? Are just using experience torque?


Anyways, I don't know if temperature cycling up and down really effects the fittings,
but it might if any are on the loose side.

On my Sanyo#2, I ran it for a week with adding more insulation, so I could go out
and re-tweak the four couplings. Only the ODU 1/4" line got 1/20 of a turn tighter.
BUT, I did find one thing. The service connection cap was only finger tight!!

If your outdoor flare connections are exposed, you might want to re-check them
with liquid soap in about a week. You might just save a service call on New Years Eve..

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Rich, those leaks were real tiny. They squirted, moved on to work on the other unit for 30 minutes or so, came back to find the smallest bubbles. they retightened to a higher torque, and resquirted. This morning they came back, squirted again than buttoned up the ivory ductwork.

The fittings that were leaking are the four they made on site when they trimmed everything to length so maybe the factory are better than field. ??? They used a pretty mean flaring tool compared to what I've used in the past.

Everything is tucked away now so if it's leaking I'll only see it on the thermometer/electric bill/icey coils. I do believe it is right. Least I hope so!

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

The factory flares I've seen are works of art, when compared to mine.
I put all of them (factory and my DIY) under a close inspection using 10x mag.
The inside of the factory flares look like they were carefully polished.
I did a bunch before I started liking them..

A big part of getting a good flare, is a good machine, but the operator has a lot to do with it too.
It's the kind of task you really have to pay attention to..
It's good they came back and re-checked the fittings.

icarus

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Question for mini=split users. How well do they work in heat mode, with OATs ~20F.

We are wondering for a house in Maine, currently heated with oil. I am wondering if a mini-split system can be more efficient, perhaps suplimented with a gas fireplace might make some sense.

Tony

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

icarus wrote: »

Question for mini=split users. How well do they work in heat mode, with OATs ~20F.

We are wondering for a house in Maine, currently heated with oil. I am wondering if a mini-split system can be more efficient, perhaps suplimented with a gas fireplace might make some sense.

Tony

When it gets really cold around here (12 deg F and under), the Sanyo units
aren't that great. So, aux heat will sometimes be needed.
Most of the time when we get those low temps in the Boston area,
I'm all snug in bed and not worried about much..

The colder it gets, the more the efficiency falls off..
But, they will still produce some heat down in the single digits..




I have two units now, so I might be able to skip the back-up of burning oil for space heating this year..

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1815-2-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-install-project-oct-2011-a.html

Cheers,
Rich

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

The Mitsubishis have better cold-weather ratings than the Sanyos. Obviously I can't give you personal experience, but I can quote what the manual says:

MSZ-FE09: 62% at -13 F, 85% at -4 F, 100% at 5 F

MSZ-FE12: 58% at -13 F, 75% at -4 F, 92% at 5 F, 100% at 14 F

Things get a little murkier looking at a different document. Note that at the coldest temperatures they throw in "maximum capacity" along with "capacity", which leads me to believe they will in fact meet the numbers above - but maybe only in pulses...

MSZ-FE09
Heating at 47º F Rated Capacity 10900 Btu/hr
Heating at 47º F Capacity Range 3000-18000 Btu/hr
Heating at 47º F Total Input 710 (150-2250) W
Heating at 47º F HSPF (Region IV) 10.0 Btu/hr/W
Heating at 17º F Capacity 6700 Btu/hr
Heating at 17º F Total Input 650 W
Heating at 17º F Maximum Capacity 12500 (10900 at 5° F) Btu/hr

MSZ-FE12
Heating at 47º F Rated Capacity 13600 Btu/hr
Heating at 47º F Capacity Range 3000-21000 Btu/hr
Heating at 47º F Total Input 950 (150-2250) W
Heating at 47º F HSPF (Region IV) 10.6 Btu/hr/W
Heating at 17º F Capacity 8300 Btu/hr
Heating at 17º F Total Input 800 W
Heating at 17º F Maximum Capacity 13600 (12500 at 5° F) Btu/hr

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Tony, I intend to check-in here when those temps are around. I have the H2i's installed now. Tonight will be the coldest night so far at a balmy 25F with no real lower temps in sight.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I read the Sanyo specs (written in Japan), but I was still worried about cold weather performance.
But, since I had back-up it hasn't been very hard on us during those super cold nights.

If Tony already has that 'gas fireplace' installed, I don't think he should go nuts
and buy the most expensive system on the market, if the backup heat
isn't crazy expensive (like oil heat)..

But, if there isn't a lot of difference in price, Mitsubishi has a great reputation..

Right now, I'm pretty happy with the cold weather performance of the Sanyos.
But, if it gets down to 2degs and stays there for a week, I'll be crying!

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Yes I too was concerned. Specs have a way of becoming sales pitches. Since AHRI does not rate the splits down low I needed to call an app engineer at MITSU to feel comfortable.

Techntrek the second set of data you listed where it speaks of rated capacity is actually the units capacity at the HSPF factor (and I was told the COP spec). So the FE09 is a COP 4.28 at 17F at 6700 BTU....confusing, no?

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Ah, as clear as a frosted-over condenser coil. :-)

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

techntrek wrote: »

Ah, as clear as a frosted-over condenser coil. :-)

LOL!...yeah so that's why we installed a 12k unit in a space that really only required 8.5K. This so the units will perform within this efficiency zone....and we can make ice cubes on the countertops in the summer...;)

Or maybe a better way to put it would've been when there is a 6700 BTU load and the outdoor temperature is 17F the FE09 will run at or about it's rated efficiency...sheesh, english ain't my best talent....heh

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Yeah, I was considering the same thing, using the 12 instead of the 09 in my coldest room even though the 9 would do fine most of the time. I'll want that extra little bit on those 3-5 days a year we get down to 0 F, and the 1-2 days every few years that we drop to -10. Probably will use the 09 in all the other rooms.

Maybe the literature should just say:

Make cold. Make heat. Blow air around.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

techntrek wrote: »

Yeah, I was considering the same thing, using the 12 instead of the 09 in my coldest room even though the 9 would do fine most of the time. I'll want that extra little bit on those 3-5 days a year we get down to 0 F, and the 1-2 days every few years that we drop to -10. Probably will use the 09 in all the other rooms.

Maybe the literature should just say:

Make cold. Make heat. Blow air around.

Our "coldest room" has been tweaked a little now.. It's 100 sq ft of glass was the main problem.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/conservation/1786-indoor-window-thermal-barrier-indoor-storms.html
And now, it's a lot easier to heat..

If it only gets down to 0 deg F, one or two days, every few years,
maybe just having a backup of 1 or 2 ($15) 1,200w space heaters would work for that room?
When it gets really cold in there, dig them up and PnP..

But, if it doesn't cost a lot more, and the specs are just as good.
A larger mini-split isn't going to be a problem. It will just run at lower power. (and might last a few years longer).
There might be a size difference of the IDU, your wife might not like..

The 24k IDU in our den does look a bit on the large size..

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Well the frigid cold temps arrived since last I posted. The Mitsubishi H2i's are performing perfectly. Got down to 9F last night and all is well in the home. We have the heat set at a balmy 73F. I've been watching the unit indoors and out looking for frosted coils and thaw cycles but have not seen it happen. I do believe I have fallen in love with these units. Electric bill has risen ~$75 per month due to these units. That's only ~$10 a month more than heating with the coal stoker in these temps.

And these H2i's are our only heat source...no backup running at all.....too freakin' sweet!

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

It got pretty chilly here last night.. Down to about 11F. Since midnight, the average has been 13.6 °F. http://pauland.net/archive.php
But, now that we are heating the den (with Sanyo#2), staying at 20C all night cost us $3.18 (9 hours : 14.8kWh)
$3.18 wouldn't buy one gallon of oil. I think the units are both using about 850watts each on average, when it's this cold.

It sure was nice to wake up to a nice warm house this morning!
Knowing that we didn't burn 4 gallons of oil ($3.89/gal) last night, priceless!


Edit: Dec 20, 2011
Weather was much nicer last night.. Around 40F on ave.. http://pauland.net/archive.php
We've used 5 kwh during the midnight to 8AM span.. That's 2/3 down from 14.8 kwh..

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Good info from both of you, thanks for checking in.

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Well I wish I had more hard data on mine like Rich has. I do intend to measure soon. Maybe Santa will bring me what I asked for.

We have inherited a 111 year old home recently that we are gutting. No solar, wind or micro hydro prospects there. Needs everything including insulation, windows/doors and heating system. We intend to let it for several years till the market turns....if it turns.....then sell.

We are installing 2 of these H2i's downstairs there with a multi-zone Mitsubishi in the three bedrooms upstairs. Since we are gutting it all plumbing will be run in the walls. All the outdoor units can be side by side and off the ground 3' or so. Should be pretty tidy and will increase the property value if done right.

Kind of nice starting with a clean slate and not needing to survive through the renovation process like we did here in our home. That with us doing most of the work ourselves.