Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

BB.

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Be careful about running near 100% rated capacity with battery chargers on a small genset...

Many (most) small battery chargers have so-so Efficinecy and very bad power factor... For example a 30 amp 12 volt battery charger, assume 80% efficiency and 0.6 power factor--what size genset:

• 30 amps * 14.5 volts = 435 Watts into battery
• 30 amps * 14.5 volts * 1/0.80 eff * 1/0.6 PF = 852 VA rated from genst

Note I typed 852 VA. Most smaller gensets are rated at the same value for maximum Watts and Volt*Amps. (larger gensets may be rated for Watts at 0.XX PF).

So--a 1,600 watt genset would be capable of powering a "typical" (Iota and many others) at around:

• 1,600 VA * 0.80 eff * 0.6 PF * 1/14.5 volts = 53 Amps Maximum into a 12 volt battery bank

This thread goes into the painful details of matching Genset to Battery Charger to Battery Bank:

Question about battery charger selection with EU2000 generator

-Bill

TheBackRoads

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Anyone looked at Soleus Air mini splits? In my research I noticed that their KFIHP-09 inverter unit uses the Sanyo twin rotary compressor..

Not as good as a sanyo, but perhaps has similar wattage usage...

Ebay: click me!

[Note: Ebay links go away pretty quickly... The above is for a 9,000 BTU Soleus Mini Split Air Conditioner Heat Pump + Inverter Technology[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Soleus Model # KFIHP-09. Buy it now price is $585 -Bill]
[/FONT]
Manufacture link: click me!

Page 3: click me!

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Only 16 SEER so probably close to double the watts of the 26 SEER 9000 BTU units.

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

We decided to go with the Mitsubishi Hyper Heat H2i's last week. They are being installed Nov 7th. Wiring is in place and we are impatiently waiting for the seventh. We opted to do the Hyper Heats as they can supply full rated capacity at a mere 5F and will suffice even at -13F. The cost for 2 of these installed is $5800.00. I do believe Mitsubishi has a superior product from my research.

We are doing a 12,000 BTU in the kitchen/dining room and a 9,000 BTU in the living room. It is a smallish more modest home but highly insulated and very energy efficient. We expect big results from these.

The coal stoker is now relegated to basement duty only where it will assist the heat pump water heater and heat the floors a bit.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Steve, you are gonna love those machines!!

This fall, I got busy and repaired the old leaky Sanyo 24k, outdoor unit.
It seems to work, so I ordered a new indoor unit and it's heating my den right now.

http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1815-2-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-install-project-oct-2011-a.html

We've been using under 10kw a day to heat the house these last few days.
That's about $2 a day. If we had been burning oil, the cost would have been 8 to 10 bucks!

Most of the time when it gets below 12F around here, it's not for very long
and we can turn on some back-up to add a little heat.
Last year, the average temperature during the whole heating season was 37 °F..

Cheers,
Rich

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Nice work Rich! I wish I had the know-how/bravery to install these units myself. I would've saved thousands. But after reviewing the Mitsubishi website I learned that all warranty coverage hinges upon an HVAC or Diamond dealer doing the install. It's a 7 year warranty so I felt it was prudent.

Boston Heating Supply has excellent customer service as you said. They quoted me a couple Sanyo systems when I was entertaining the go it alone approach. Needed a pump and manifold set too which are pretty pricey.

I saw some info online that speaks to the charging of these units being a moving target. Not as simple as reading superheat and pressures. They say the units should be pumped down, gas recovered, then a weighed amount of gas replaced.....sounded too technical for my DIY talents.

I hope we made the right choice. Yes the heating season is typically milder than what we designed for but it is our only source of heat upstairs (bar space heaters) so we wanted to be sure it would definately keep up on those one or two extra frigid days per year. Also, the efficiencies at more moderate temperatures should be increased because of it....we will see.

Thanks for the post! It was a great read. Our discussions in the past here on this site was my inspiration to follow through with the mini-split system. :cool:

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Steve,
I hope that you will be able to give us some usage data. Specifically the different levels of power that the unit uses with different programmed temperature differentials.

One of the nice things about Sanyo is they will honor the warranty for user install as long as the initial run and evac is done by a licensed HVAC guy. For offgrid where installations are often "way down the road" this is critical.

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

First post here! After getting my $300+ electric bill this summer, and that with only using window air conditioning units, not central air, I finally came to the conclusion that I need to take action. I am very interested in installing some in-grid solar panels, but before I do I have started doing all the cheaper electrical savings stuff I can do - replaced old fridge, installing timers on electrical devices that would have stayed on all day, etc. Reading this thread is the first time I have heard about these split AC/HP units. I've looked at some prices and they are pretty expensive $1-3 thousand, and that doesn't include installation unless you do it yourself.

That said, here is my question. For someone on the grid, do you think these units would be a significant enough cost savings on the electrical bill to justify the up front expense? How long would the pay-back, so to speak, time be?

Kelly

solar_dave

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

One way to find out would be to first get a handle on what your window units cost to operate this last summer. You can get a good estimate from you now off season usage vs your on season usage.

Next what are your utility rates? and what will a mini split reduce your costs? There is a good thread about operating a mini-split system here. So some mini splits have different seer ratings, and at some point you need to decide about cost vs efficiency. Then you need to determine you cooling load. Once that is done you can make an estimate at your operating costs using a mini split.

Compare the 2 values and you have your answer.

The mini splits are nice because some of them have a single base unit with multiple indoor units. I have one manufactured by Freidrich with a 3ton base unit with 3 9000 BTU inside units, I love it and the consumption is very low compared to my traditional Trane 3 ton Central units.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Hi Kelly,

If you are burning oil (aka Black Gold) now, just about anything else will be better for heating..

In my case, I'm saving a LOT of money on space heating.
One month of heating with oil could cost 500-700 bucks.
My Sanyo mini-splits will likely be paying for themselves this winter.

You need to state your goals, do you plan to heat? Or do you already have cheap gas heat?
How tight is your house? Good insulation? Modern windows? How's the weather there? & etc..

Cheers,
Rich

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Thanks for the replies Dave and Rich.

Rich, my goal is to both heat and cool, but since I live in Georgia cooling is the most pressing thing. I live in an old house (1937) and its pretty leaky. My current cooling has been using three window unit A/C, as my central A/C has kicked the bucket. We have a central electrical heating unit (also not working), and a nice natural gas heater that will heat up the whole down stairs of the house. Unfortunately I paid $2000 in gas bills last winter using the gas unit, so we plan to use electrical space heaters this winter.

Dave, that's hard to say since I've already made some progress in tightening up our electrical usage. I'm pretty sure our old refrigerator was costing us about $20-30 per month to run, and we replaced that a couple of months ago. I've also unplugged the TV when not in use, and put timers on some other things on timers. This summer our energy consumption was about 1500-2000 kwh during the worst of it. This month was an amazing 389 kwh. I know not all of that was A/C. Electricity is just at the national average here (I think about $0.10 per kwh).

Kelly

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I'm getting ready to order my first mini-split, also a Mitsubishi but one of the smaller 12k BTU models. Nearly as good at low temp operation - the 9k unit will output 100% @ 5 F, the 12 k unit 92% @ 5 F. Both drop down around 60% @ -13 F with an absolute minimum of -18 F. Good SEERs on cooling, too, at 26 and 23 SEER. Long-term goal is to get 4 single-room splits to get the highest efficencies in the rooms we use the most, then a multi-room split to finish off the rest of the rooms.

One of the disadvantages of the multi-room splits is the SEER ratings drop into the mid-teens, not any better than a new central A/C unit. But you can do zoned heating/cooling unlike a central unit so there is still an advantage.

Utana, I'm on the grid. I have a central heat pump upstairs and an A/C downstairs, both will be replaced by the mini-splits. To get any kind of decent payback time I will be installing the mini-splits myself, it would cost twice as much for a professional installation. The key is the refridgerant used in these things can be bought by anyone, no license needed like the older refridgerants. A gauge set, vacuum pump and tank of refrigerant can be bought for around $400. A quarter the cost of the installation of just one mini-split. You can't buy central units for do-it-yourself installation, so you have to pay for installation. Add on the premium price the high-SEER central units have and it would be cheaper to move to the Caribbean...

solar_dave

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

It would not surprise me that your summer usage is 2/3 of your bill for AC. Lets say 1300 kWh. At $0.10 that is about $130 a month, some how that doesn't line up with your $300 bill. I suspect there are other kWh charges on your bill or your underestimating your consumption.

Window AC units are notorious for low seer ratings, but that is just a guess in your case. Mini Splits vary in seer as well but most come in at least 17 seer.

Two things could happen here, tighten up the house, it is better to save a watt than to generate or buy a watt. Figure that the mini might cut your consumption like 40% from the window units, maybe more.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

My first install was a learning experience.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/683-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-diy-install-project.html

Which made it pretty easy to do the second install..
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1815-2-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-install-project-oct-2011-a.html

Not really hard for the avid DIYer. I did 99.99% of the work myself, I just needed
to have an HVAC guy come over and turn the Hex key and sign off on the warranty.

There are other DIY installs at http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/


These systems are actually pretty easy to install (standard installation).
The labor isn't anywhere near what it is for old style ducted systems.
Those HVAC guys have a lot of overhead cost and want to pass it on.

Manufactures have already been exploring how mini-splits can be easily installed
by the home owner. With Pre-charged line-sets that you just plug-in etc.
If they keep it up, we will start seeing mini-splits outside of many more homes.
Like you find overseas. 8)

Cheers,
Rich

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Thanks Dave and techntreck. This is exactly the information I was looking for. Looks like I should look into these, and that it will be worth the money, but I definitely need to continue to tighten up the house.

The goal for this winter is to button up the windows, finish installing attic radiant barriers, and install additional attic insulation to the pitiful 3-inch layer of fiberglass we have up there. While we are doing that, I can research what type of unit is best. Any idea which is more efficient - the ones that are for an individual space or the ones that can feed several outlets? I'll need to read this whole long thread and get some other questions answered too, like where to find a good DIY tutorial for these things. I'm definitely up for doing it myself, but I'm not sure my husband will go for that. He's not as into experimenting with the house as I am.

Kelly

drees

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Utana wrote: »

The goal for this winter is to button up the windows, finish installing attic radiant barriers, and install additional attic insulation to the pitiful 3-inch layer of fiberglass we have up there.

Wow - if you only have 3" of fiber in the attic right now, fix that right away. That's the real cause of your high cooling and heating bills.

That's probably the equivalent of R13 at most - get at least R30 worth up there if not more. 2 layers of R19 criss-crossed over your existing R13 should keep the cold and heat in a lot better - attic insulation is probably the easiest to fix. Next up is sealing up gaps around windows, doors and exterior wall outlets/switches.

Windows/doors can be expensive, so look at the worst ones first. Inexpensive fix for windows is a double or triple cell honeycomb shade. Make sure it fits as tight as possible - you can also get shades with tracks on the sides so it really seals the window well. Even cheaper fix is affixing bubble wrap to windows (google it). Looks ugly but really cheap and will really improve window performance. There are also inexpensive window sealing kits which add a layer of clear plastic over your windows turning your single pane window into a double.

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Rich, thanks for the links to your project descriptions. I actually found the first one earlier today. I'm still at work so don't have a lot of time to read too much. Now I will be able to find it back easily. And it will be great to see the other one too. I can show these to my husband and hopefully talk him into a DIY project.

One thing, we have plaster walls in our old house. And the outside of the house is a layer of aluminum siding over transite (asbestos) siding, which is over the frame then lathe and plaster. How easy do you think this will be to install into? I'm wondering if we can somehow install the outlets of these into the holes we already have in the walls where the duct work comes in, and maybe run the lines down into the basement and then outside. Easier to put a hole through the wood floors instead of the walls. Thoughts? Ideas?

Drees, thanks for all the great ideas! My husband also wants to install the fiberglass rolls up in the attic directly over the old insulation. Some of that insulation has paper on one side, the top side, of it. Two layers you think. That's good to know. We have to wait to do the insulation until after the radiant barriers are installed since it will be harder to do the barriers after insulation is all over the floor of the attic space. We are doing that ourselves too, and hopefully will have it done over the next few weekends.

For the windows I have been purchasing "thermal" cloth roman blinds. They are not really thermal, just regular blinds with a kind of plastic/rubbery white coating on the back. I've purchased a bunch of cheap space blankets on Amazon and am going to use them to add another layer on the back side of these blinds. That ought to do really well against the radiant sun in the summer time, though they do look a bit trashy outside the house. I've added magnetic tape around the windows where the blinds will lay, and will be gluing on some magnets to the blinds to keep them flush on the windows. Hope that will work.

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks, I will be all over these systems checking them for usage and efficiency. I really can't wait for my new toys to come in. I understand that Sanyo has a little more liberal warranty policy. Mitsubishi won't warranty anything sold over the internet for instance, and they do know where they were bought. I verified that. I wanted the most efficient lowest ambient temperature units with the longest warranty and that was Mitsubishi H2i.

It will not be as cost effective to run as the coal stoker I'm sure.... We heated our entire home for less than $600 last year using rice coal. It was a hard decision from a pocketbook standpoint. From an enviromental standpoint, not so much.

Kelly, It was demonstrated to me that the break even point of replacing window AC units as compared to mini splits is right around two to one in my area. So if I were replaceing two window units I will see savings here. Someone please correct me if this is wrong? We are looking forward to AC in the summer using the Mini splits but the real savings for us will be in the winter compared to oil, elec, pellets and propane (our only options besides bulk wood and coal). I agree with the guys/gals about insulating the home much better than it is. And $30 per month to run a refrigerator?...WOW! That's really steep!

Techntrek, you are doing exactly as us. Same units too except for the multizone one's. Mitsubishi is a little quirky when it comes to multi zone control. I'm not sure oif the other brands. You can't have one zone demanding heat and the other demanding cooling simultaneously. They must all demand one or the other...the odd zone will "stick" until this takes place. So a load of people in a room might get uncomfortably warm if another zone is demanding heat. This is why we will eventually go with an outdoor unit for every room. Depending if these two do OK.....I like redundancy too much maybe?


Rich, I've seen some units advertised as pre-charged. Now that I could handle

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Utana, you'll want to rip off the paper backing for insulation you install in the attic. Attic insulation needs to breathe or you'll get moisture build-up reducing its effectiveness. Cheaper to buy the non-backed stuff when you add more.

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Thanks techntreck, will do that.

Another question. In researching these mini split units further I've found one that is already charged and connects with quick connects. It is touted as a true DIY unit. Anyone heard of these or have any thoughts on how they may compare to the others. Sounds like this would be even easier and the price is about the same as the others I've seen.

Kelly

PhilS

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

My Sanyo came pre-charged. I could've just 'hooked it up' and been fine but I've had too many years of auto repair... I bought another vacuum pump and gauges for the R410. Another $100 eBay purchase, but I felt more comfortable evacuating the little system before operation.

I also found it amazing (understand... I'm EASILY amazed!) that you can close a valve, run the compressor, and all the freon is back in the unit so you can close the other valve and then disconnect the pipes and do it all over again.

Phil

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Utana wrote: »

Rich, thanks for the links to your project descriptions. I actually found the first one earlier today. I'm still at work so don't have a lot of time to read too much. Now I will be able to find it back easily. And it will be great to see the other one too. I can show these to my husband and hopefully talk him into a DIY project.

One thing, we have plaster walls in our old house. And the outside of the house is a layer of aluminum siding over transite (asbestos) siding, which is over the frame then lathe and plaster. How easy do you think this will be to install into? I'm wondering if we can somehow install the outlets of these into the holes we already have in the walls where the duct work comes in, and maybe run the lines down into the basement and then outside. Easier to put a hole through the wood floors instead of the walls. Thoughts? Ideas?

Working with asbestos is something to avoid if you can.
You could go into the floor, like I did with my second install. (URL above).
It won't look near as neat. But, it was easier & faster to install, since it was on an interior wall.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/Green%20slot/10goofing.jpg (pic for scale. I'm 6" tall).


I used a new type of line-set (Mostly Aluminum) and it seems to bend a lot easier, than standard copper line.
It might be easier for installs, where there are a lot of 90deg bends.
Bending this new stuff isn't complicated, but you Have to read the instructions.
Not sure what the life span of these new line-sets is going to be yet.
For all I know, they may have been using them in China for years..?.


We've been working on our windows too..
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/conservation/1786-indoor-window-thermal-barrier-indoor-storms.html

Cheers,
Rich

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Phil,
I too am stil amazed with it three years later. Two of my customers did not even bleed the air out of the linesets. They just hooked them up and ran them.

This is backed up by the shipping box stating "air purging with vacuum pump"
I doubt the larger compressors do this but ours do. The Sanyo Engineers told me that they believe many of their customers in the 3rd world do this.

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

XRinger, you are only 6 inches tall???? :-)

I have the gauge/line sets and a canister of the R410, the Mitsubishi installation guide says it is only pre-charged for a line length of 25 feet. Some of my runs will exceed that amount. I haven't ordered a vacuum pump yet but I'm looking at one made by MasterCool.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Utana wrote: »

Thanks techntreck, will do that.

Another question. In researching these mini split units further I've found one that is already charged and connects with quick connects. It is touted as a true DIY unit. Anyone heard of these or have any thoughts on how they may compare to the others. Sounds like this would be even easier and the price is about the same as the others I've seen.

Kelly

The unit that I saw for sale on the web, had the line-set pre-charged with R410A.
The ODU (OutDoor Unit) comes with a few pounds of R410A (refrigerant) installed.
(They load it up with R410A in China)! This very typical of these systems.
It saves $50 to $200 in installer bills.. (Maybe more, depending on the installer).


After working with the Flare connections and playing around with them when
I was doing the repair job, I kinda got a feel for them.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1753-sanyo-24khs72-mini-split-diy-repair-project.html

The Flares are a pretty good substitute for the brazed in type (that are used in central air systems).
I like them. They make it easy to make changes to the system..
Like, if you want to pump-down the R410A (back into ODU) and move the system.
Takes about 10 minutes to pump-down, disconnect and remove.

If the price wasn't too much higher, and I could get the same quality and specs,
I would not be adverse to buying the per-charged line-set.
If I didn't have to bend it too much, & was the correct length..
Most importantly, the system would have to rated for the BTUhs I needed.
So far, the only Pre-loaded lineset systems I've seen are low BTUh models..

Cheers,
X

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

techntrek wrote: »

XRinger, you are only 6 inches tall???? :-)

I have the gauge/line sets and a canister of the R410, the Mitsubishi installation guide says it is only pre-charged for a line length of 25 feet. Some of my runs will exceed that amount. I haven't ordered a vacuum pump yet but I'm looking at one made by MasterCool.

Old people have a lot of Shift-Key errors... ' " ' " ' dang!

I think my Sanyo manual said the charge was for a 20 or 30 foot line set.
My run was shorter, so I rolled up the excess and made an oil trap..

X

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

PhilS wrote: »

My Sanyo came pre-charged. I could've just 'hooked it up' and been fine but I've had too many years of auto repair... I bought another vacuum pump and gauges for the R410. Another $100 eBay purchase, but I felt more comfortable evacuating the little system before operation.

I also found it amazing (understand... I'm EASILY amazed!) that you can close a valve, run the compressor, and all the freon is back in the unit so you can close the other valve and then disconnect the pipes and do it all over again.

Phil

I've done a few pump-downs and it is easy. You end up with a slight vacuum in the line set. No wasted R410A..

I don't think just hooking it up is a good idea at all.. Air in the line set is going
to have a bad effect on the R410A and the POE lubricant.

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Yes the DIY'ers that are considering going it alone with the 26 SEER Mitsubishi units should be aware of the preamble to the warranty policy of MEUS:

"MEUS warrants as follows to the original owner of this Mr. Slim product that, if purchased from and installed by a contractor licensed for HVAC installation under applicable local and state laws within the continental United States, Alaska, and Hawaii, should it prove defective by reason of defects arising from improper workmanship and/or material:"

Those compressors are very pricey and the control boards are not cheap either. A 7 year warranty is a long time. My installer gave me a 7 year labor and trip charge warranty to boot. Finally, a protection racket worthy of investment...8) Not without cost though at roughly $1000 each unit for transport and installation. But it is done right with the unit suspended from (bolted to) the foundation so the theft factor is greatly reduced and the lines insulated seperately from each other to mitigate condensation problems (not always done).

Many people do not know this but the Mitsubishi's get their 240V indoor unit power from the outdoor unit. A seperate disconnect is required in many/most regions per Elec Code. This is also supplied in our installation agreement. Two of the three companies we had here did not know of this.

Ours will be installed this Monday....excellent Smithers...excellent.....

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

"A separate disconnect"..

I've seen that info and the switch/cut-off wiring diagram in the Sanyo manuals too..

And it really made me wonder why anyone would want to install a second
cut-off, in series with the main cut-off (main disconnect box).?.

I can just see some electrician's apprentice turning off the power to the indoor unit,
and thinking it's safe to pull the cover off the outdoor unit's power terminal.

IMHO, it's not good to add any confusion factor to anything that can kill people..


I once told an electronics 'engineer' about exposed terminals remaining hot, AFTER the off-on switch was turned off.
It seems he didn't believe my report, because he turned off the machine and put his fingers on 170vdc terminals.

He was saying something about "UL listings", when he convulsed and dumped
a full cup of hot coffee on his chest, then crumpled to the floor in pain from the 170v.

Just goes to show, Murphy and Darwin can work together. :roll:

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Xringer...lol!

Hey has anyone seen this unit from Sanyo yet? COP/EER 5.0 baby...yeah! Sorry, for the Austin Powers...heh

The Shiki Kai Zen...urr,umm something like that... http://www.overseas.sanyo.com/airconditioners/products/room/ssk/