Dc vs ac efficiency

mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
in Energy Use & Conservation #1
I've been reading on dc ceiling fans claims of 70% more efficient than ac fans with 300+ cfms per watt. 20 watts on high at 6600 cfm. Has anyone tried one of those fans?
Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
    I have one in my bedroom. I don't remember the numbers, but definitely much more efficient than an ac equivalent. It's ~3' across and does the job with a couple amps at 12v on high IIRC.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,653 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Many AC fans (appliances) have given no thought to efficiency, but when a DC circuit and electronic controls are designed, the lower the power, the cheaper it can be made.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

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  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    I just finished putting in an over-the-range microwave. It has an "eco" button that turns off the display. Aside from saving a bit of power for the LEDs, it figured that it would save me having to look at a display with the wrong time showing :smile:
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #5
    I thought my little 30 watt 900 cfm fan was cooling. How would you keep the cover on the bed with 6600? The way this one works it uses ac and  converts it to dc . So to use it 12 volts dc inverted to 120 ac and back to dc. Seems like there would be a lot of losses. Wish you could buy 30 watt psw.lol
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    It seems to me that if you are having issues with running a normal AC powered ceiling fan in summer,  your system is definitely going to have problems in winter. It is all about winter offgrid ;)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

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  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018 #7
    We installed two these 56" fans at our house. They are expensive at $180, but take very little power to run. Attached the pdf on the fans specs.They use AC, but convert to DC.

    Rick

    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 195AH LiFePO4 no BMS, Kohler Pro 5.2E.
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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #8
    If every thing was as eff. as those fans, solar arrays could be the size of tvs.  I spend summers in virginia off grid. Before winter comes I head out the hills. Where power lines are.
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #9
    This is the one I have:
    http://www.backwoodssolar.com/products/fans-large-small/40inch-12-volt-ceiling-fan-white

    It doesn't give CFM, but it's pretty quiet and moves enough air to do the job without blowing the covers off the bed!

    AFAIK, it's a DC motor so no conversions.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #10
    @Rick where did you purchase yours? That's better than some of the prices I'm seeing. In my energy audit my noisey little dc fan 24 hrs a day. Used more than every thing else combined.
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    FWIW When temperatures at night never drop below 27°C I use a 12VDC brushless table fan, rated  at 12W, powered by a 45Ah battery, charged by a 60W panel via a cheap 10A PWM controller, a little stand alone system, it works flawlessly, actually cobbled together with components on hand, the fan itself cost a little over $10.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018 #12
    Got it on sale at Home Depot a couple years ago. The regular price is currently $229, but they do go on sale at 10 to 15% less. I don't know why it says 15 inch, it actually a 56 inch fan.
    Here's the link:
    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Home-Decorators-Collection-15-in-Brown-Ceiling-Fan-with-Light-Kit-and-Remote-Control-51558/301909748
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 195AH LiFePO4 no BMS, Kohler Pro 5.2E.
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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #13
    @ mcgivor My first fan was from a honda civic powered by a 100 watt panel wired directly works great, but didnt do much of anything at night lol. then tried a 12" dc table top. Not much air! Now I have the endless breeze 12 volt dc 2.52 amps on high it really blows but sounds like an airplane. Night temps are 15 to 20c. Personally That's cool enough to not need a fan at all but, My wife has a different opinion. Thanks @Estragon I'll check it out. When I get my cabin finished, to home Depot. Any one heard of a tv with really low consumption.
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    High efficiency requires large, slow moving fans - like 56 or more inches.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Our 55 inch LED LG TV LB5900 series draws 45 watts. I think that's on the low end for it's size, or at least it was a couple of years ago. Spec sheet says wattage is to be determined, but I measured it wit a kill-a-watt meter. Spec sheet attached. You can tell, I've been down the efficiency road before. The heat pump water heater is probably our biggest cost saver.
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 195AH LiFePO4 no BMS, Kohler Pro 5.2E.
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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #16
    For my rv a 55" tv is larger than I would need . A 32" would be a better fit. I like the 56" fans efficiency but a 40" should be abut the right size for a small bed room and cut my use by more than 50%. That's almost 400 whrs for tv. While still staying under my daily 1 kwh limit.
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Getting one with adjustable brightness/modes and putting it in a darkish place might help.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #18
    A friend just told me of his 32 vizio 21 watts. With a 120 watt samlex inverter .5 amp idle would it be 21÷.85 eff.= 24.7 + 6 watts about 31 whrs?
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • ThomThom Solar Expert Posts: 192 ✭✭✭
    #19
    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hampton-Bay-Winfield-54-in-Indoor-Liquid-Nickel-Ceiling-Fan-with-Light-Kit-and-Remote-Control-AG804-LN/202608829  I have that fan . 

    Thom
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added [email protected] 100w panel with a midnight brat 
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  • myocardiamyocardia Solar Expert Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    #20
    mountainman said:
    would it be 21÷.85 eff.= 24.7 + 6 watts about 31 whrs?
    Absolutely not. It would be 24.7 watts, times the amount of time used, in hours, to find your watt hours. So, 24.7 watts for 15 minutes= 24.7 X 0.25= 6.175 watt hours. Watch it for 2.5 hours, and it becomes 24.7 x 2.5= 61.75 watt hours. You know how you don't count your car's idle gasoline usage against it while you're driving down the interstate, only the amount of miles driven and it's miles per gallon? You don't count an inverter's idle power usage against it while it is inverting for the exact same reason: it is not idle.
    DoD= depth of discharge= amount removed from that battery   SoC= state of charge= amount remaining in that battery
    So, 0% DoD= 100% SoC, 25% DoD= 75% SoC, 50% DoD= 50% SoC, 75% DoD= 25% SoC, 100% DoD= 0% SoC
    A/C= air conditioning AC= alternating current (what comes from the outlets in your home) DC= direct current (what batteries & solar panels use)
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  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    myocardia said:
    mountainman said:
    would it be 21÷.85 eff.= 24.7 + 6 watts about 31 whrs?
    Absolutely not. It would be 24.7 watts, times the amount of time used, in hours, to find your watt hours. 
    @mountainman is only adding on the extra energy needed to drag the trailer with the car, not the car's idle. In this case the inverter likely uses 6-8 watts at idle, that is NOT being considered. only the extra energy needed to run the load (trailer). If it's 85% efficient then the load when running will be roughly 31 watts. The total load will be the 31 watts AND the idle of the inverter...

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #22
    I am currently using a TV that uses 31 watts on my kilowatt meter. 31/.85 36.47 + 8 watts for inverter 44.47 watts on DC meter from battery.
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
    The efficiency of an inverter changes significantly with load in a non-linear way.      A single percentage plus a constant (a straight line) isn't going to match the actual curve.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #24
    I read in the inverter manual highest effiency at 80% load. I'm in the 10% range 31 on a 300 watt.
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭✭
    #25
    31/44.47 is a typical/reasonable 70% efficiency @ 10% load.  Peak efficiency load point varies, but 50% load would be more typical. 

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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  • mountainmanmountainman Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭
    #26
    I only use an inverter for TV so I could use a smaller one. 120 watts is the smallest psw I can find. That would put me at @25% load. I'm not sure If it would be of any advantage from a 300 watt @10%?
    Blue ridge mts. Renogy pwm 4 100 watt and 2 190 evergreen on Epever mppt 30. 4 Gc 208 ah @12 volts 300 watt psw inverter. 2 kw genny. Iota 45.
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  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #27
    It seems to me the difference in efficiency between a 120w psw inverter and a decent 300w one wouldn't amount to enough to worry about in this application. There might even be more consumption with the 120w one if it doesn't have asleep mode, and the 300w one does.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
    Depends on the model,  but around 90% would be reasonable, maybe saving 10 watts.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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