Schneider Electric XW+6.8kw120/240 VS Schneider Electric Conext XW 4024 Inverter/Charger 120/2

offgridcabin2015offgridcabin2015 Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
I am researching between these too pure syn inverters.

I've done enough to know that that xw+ manual states i must have 440 ah MIN. 
The 4024 version is stating min requirement is 100 ah.

i'm really wanting to make the jump to 48v. I can rewire my Eight 6v batts into one bank equally 48v (easy to do)
but concern tho is it's only going to give me 232 ah NOT the 440 AT it's stating i need.

Is this just recommended ? The reason i want the xw+ if for the surge of 12000 vs the 4024 surge of 8000.

My goal is to run all my wood working gear. 3hp electric tablesaw/ 220vac. and 2hp air compressor.

Now i could buy another 8 --232 ah 6v deep cycle batts but cannot add (paralle to bank) for can't mix new with old.

I could i guess buy em use the new batts only store my current batts , charge every 3 mths or so  match the existing life age then mix the two?
Anyone ever think or do that . or is this nonsense?

or

Was thiking i can get a batt seletor and manually turn to bank 2 (new baNk) that way there not mixed. i think a great idea
and a great way around the issue. 

so it's all about the 440ah min requirement / if it really doen't have to be , and i can really use my 232 ah bank. i can do this.

What do you peeps think. 

Neil. 

Comments

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11 #2
    The rational behind having a larger battery capacity for a large capacity inverter is to minimize the DC voltage drop when operating near or at it's limitations, and the 440 Ah minimum is exactly that, a minimum recommendation, the actual needs would be based on daily consumption.

    Parallel connecting an older string with new can be done but it depends largely on the age, the older they are the less overall capacity they would have and may need different charging requirements than new. This may result in extended charging times due to the older ones loss of efficiency thus subjecting the newer ones to unnecessary stress.

    The isolating switch idea still results in too small capacity, assuming you're offgrid and already have a system in operation you might want to consider building a second new system which would allow redundancy, should something fail on one at an inopportune time there would be backup power to allow repair without being under duress.

    For  self consumption  reasons on my Schneider CS 2524 I switch between two inverters by programming a invert block period overnight when demand is low, using an automatic transfer switch, this came in handy already when rats chewed the insulation of the PV cables causing a short.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,462 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The battery is used as a ripple capacitor for the inverter.  if you only have 1kw loads, 100ah would suffice  Loads larger will stress the inverter.   Starting your large motors could be sketchy, because of the internal resistance of small batteries.

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10 #4
    ...or running 3000 watts on a 230 Ah 48v  battery bank, drawing 3000/48=62 amps from a 230 amp hour battery bank becomes a bit tiny, I'd guess at real draw of 62+6 for inverter efficiency,  Your capacity is around a 3 hr draw, likely less as the voltage drops.

    I'd try to only run with good solar array support!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Skip the 24V and go with 48V.  Many more choices down the road. Easier to correct a mistake made because you do not have the data for your exact requirements.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • offgridcabin2015offgridcabin2015 Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Thankyou all for chiming in . 
    I will go 48 volts . I agree DAve, this is the right way to go LONG TERM.

    i will have to buy in pieces. So i'll buy the inverter 1st. Than i'lll buy 445 ah / 6v batts Rolls 499.00 a pop. i'll buy eight of em / 
    and then i'll only need a 48v to 12 step down (30 amps)  to run my  12 gear..

    HOpe you all remain safe. 
    Neil. 
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11 #7
    Welcome! My safety is the snow sliding off the roof today,,,,,Have to watch those icicles  :*  

    Keep in the back of your mind no matter what you choose for a battery, you can always buy a set of golf batteries at Costco for about $80 or so each. Many can live on a 48v, or at least buy some time. Batteries are a C19  victim with long lead times.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • offgridcabin2015offgridcabin2015 Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Thankyou for sharing Dave 
    I've been using 

    GC2 Deep Cycle 6V Golf Cart Battery . 


    Going strong 5 years this past feb 2021.   ( notE i only use about 50-70ah during daytime when sun fullyout. / and 
    batts are floating the entire time.

    using light at night time , that's it . . I want my batts to last last LAST.

    What a diff of pricing tho usa vs canada. 
    I assume your in the USA / ? 
    OUR price locally for 6v deep cyle is  $189.99 (princess auto.com / canada)

    link: https://www.princessauto.com/en/gc2-deep-cycle-6v-golf-cart-battery/product/PA0008620080

    our local costco / canada doen't offer deep cycle only sli (car starting batts)/ garbage for us solar peeps.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I meant the golf batteries for 48V.  A  24V golf bank would be hard for many people full time. Just not enough juice in 24v.

     Jeez shop some more. I can ship canadian made batteries from here cheaper than that. Maybe canada does not have golf courses for golf batteries??? Nah !      https://www.costco.com/interstate-6-volt-golf-cart-battery.product.100476406.html

    I live down below in the Sig.    
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • offgridcabin2015offgridcabin2015 Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Thanks Dave. I wasn't aware there was such a thing 48v golf cart battery. (huh, who knew)
    So i did some digging seems we canadians are be ripped off for pricing. see link for canadian costco pricing , note , low 208ah too. / 1year warranty

    link: https://a.sellpoint.net//w/spworld/p.html?prtnid=6409&pageid=100017095&div=sp_inline_product&title=Costco Battery Selector
    they want 150.00 . and the reviews mostly on the linkyou have shared are very high on the neg side . 

    Based on that i think i will stay clear of them.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12 #11
    Reviews of batteries are pretty useless as many folks do not know how to treat them as you do!

    The Costco model looks and weighs exactly as your model does. Pretty hard to say they were made differently. My guess, they are the same from Interstate. 

    I am saying a 48V bank made up of 6 v golf cart batteries has twice the capacity of a 24V bank of the same. Clear as mud?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    edited March 12 #12
    Power  = Voltage *  Current

    If you have 4 x "Golf Cart" batteries
    4 x 6 volt @ 200 AH  batteries in series/parallel (2s * 2p) = 12 volts @ 400 AH
    12 volts * 400 AH = 4,800 Watt*Hours of storage (typically use 50% max discharge for longer life)
    4 x 6 volt @ 200 AH  batteries in series (4s * 1p) = 24 volts @ 200 AH
    24 volts * 200 AH = 4,800 Watt*Hours

    If you have 8 x "GC" batteries
    8 x 6 volt @ 200 AH  batteries in series/parallel (2s * 4p) = 12 volts @ 800 AH
    24 volts * 400 AH = 9,600 WH of storage
    8 x 6 volt @ 200 AH  batteries in series/parallel (4s * 2p) = 24 volts @ 400 AH
    24 volts * 400 AH = 9,600 WH of storage
    8 * 6 volt @ 200 AH batteries in series (4s * 1p) = 48 volts @ 200 AH
    48 volts * 200 AH = 9,600 WH of storage

    So the total "energy storage" (Energy = Voltage * AmpHours of storage) is the same for 8 batteries, if wired as 4s * 2p or 8s * 1p...

    Batteries in series add voltage. Batteries in parallel add current/Amp*Hours. Batteries in series/parallel add "both" (depending on exact configuration).

    Just rearranging the deck chairs.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I always like your chairs! Mine got snow on them right now and I wish they did not!
     I edited above from the same to the "same model" as I think he was talking about going to 48V inverter. 
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • offgridcabin2015offgridcabin2015 Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Thankyou all for this info . 
    I have a question for clarity to dave: 
    I am trying to understand your comment of:   (  I am saying a 48V bank made up of 6 v golf cart batteries has twice the capacity of a 24V bank of the same. Clear as mud?)


    when super moderators number shows the below:

    8 x 6 volt @ 200 AH  batteries in series/parallel (4s * 2p) = 24 volts @ 400 AH
    24 volts * 400 AH = 9,600 WH of storage
    8 * 6 volt @ 200 AH batteries in series (4s * 1p) = 48 volts @ 200 AH
    48 volts * 200 AH = 9,600 WH of storage

    So weather i have 24v bank / or  48 bank i still haVe only 9600WH. 

    what am i missing here, ? how does 48v have the double capicity?

    My guess here is the amps used ?like if i watched tv for 1 hr on 24v it used 20 amps  
    vs
    i watched tv for 1 hr on my 48v baNk it drew only 10 amps. 

    is this what you mean by . ihave double the storage on 48v? Does this make sense?

    Thankyou. i'm trying to learn from you all. 
    Neil 
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    It is the number of batteries in your bank... An 8 x 6 volt @ 200 AH can be configured in three ways:
    • 2s * 4p (8 batteries) for 12 volt @ 800 AH
    • 4s * 2p (8 batteries) for 24 volt @ 400 AH
    • 8s * 1p (8 batteries) for 48 volt @ 200 AH
    Any of the above are 8 batteries * 6 volts per battery * 200 AH per battery = 9,600 Watt*Hours of stored energy
    If you had a 4s * 1p (4 "GC" batteries), that would give you a 24 volt @ 200 AH
    • 4 * 6 volt * 200 AH = 4,800 WattHour battery bank capacity
    And if you bought 4 more for an 8s * 1p (8 "GC" batteries total):
    • 8 * 6 volt * 200 AH = 9,600 WattHour battery bank (48 volts * 200 AH)
    In the above case... If you "double the number of batteries", you have double the stored energy.
    • Remember Power = Voltage * Current
    • Stored Energy = Voltage * Amp*Hours (battery bus voltage * stored capacity)
    There is no "magic" here where rewiring the batteries to different bus voltages gives you more Energy or even "power" to your AC inverter/loads/etc...
    However, look at the first example. Say you want 10% rate of charge:
    • 800 AH (12 volt) * 10% rate of charge = 80 Amps of charging current
    • 400 AH (24 volt) * 10% rate of charge = 40 Amps of charging current
    • 200 AH (48 volt) * 10% rate of charge = 20 Amps of charging current
    A typical solar charge controller is rated for XX Amps current at 12/24/48 volt battery bus... This means that a single charge controller can "manage" an array 2x larger @ 24 volts or 4x larger @48 volts vs an identical (energy storage) 12 volt bus system.
    Also, look at the wiring--From 12 to 48 volts, you have 1/4 the current. Which means you need much smaller wire to carry the same current (roughly 6+ AWG steps smaller---I.e. ~12 AWG for 20 amps or 4 AWG for 80 amps.
    And voltage drop--You can "allow" or design for higher voltage drop from controller to battery bus (typically 0.10 volts max for 12 volt bus, and 0.40 volt max for controller to battery bus drop)--Which means you can have longer cable runs from charger to battery bank without needing thicker/heavier wire to keep voltage drop low (similar for runs from array to controller, and battery bus to AC inverter, and 120/240 VAC from inverter to AC loads).
    I try to do things in steps---What your your loads, your battery bank sizing, your array sizing, distances loads and any special requirements (like 12/24 VDC loads, long wire runs, etc.).
    When we do the paper step by step designs, you can better understand why things are done this way... For small systems, 12 VDC battery bus can work for 12 volt lighting/appliances and a small AC inverter. For anything larger, tending towards 48 VDC battery bus with AC inverter usually works better.
    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    Your question about 20 Amps @ 24 volts vs 10 Amps @ 48 volt loads... When you look at "Watts" or power usage:
    • 20 amps * 24 volts * 1 hour = 480 Watt*Hours
    • 10 amps * 48 volts * 1 hour = 480 Watt*Hours
    So the energy used (Watt*Hours) is the same in either setup...
    And why we usually talk about Watts and Watthours about the loads--Watts is a "complete" unit. In the above example, both end up as 480 WH as the answer.
    For Amps--We always need to know the working voltage too... Amps is an "incomplete" unit... We need to know if it is 20 Amps @ 24 volts or 10 amps @ 48 volts...
    When you are working with only 12 VDC battery bus--Such as a car--We can talk about Amps and Amp*Hours without any confusion.
    However, when working with a mixed system (~100 VDC solar array Vmp working voltage, a 12/24/48 volt battery bus, and 12/24/48VDC loads and/or 120/240VAC loads... It can get real confusing what "10 amps" means in such a system... 10 Amps actually means different things in different parts of the system:
    • 10 amps * 100 Vmp-array = 1,000 Watts
    • 10 amps * 12 VDC battery = 120 Watts
    • 10 amps * 24 VDC battery = 240 Watts
    • 10 amps * 48 VDC battery = 480 Watts
    • 10 amps * 120 VAC inverter = 1,200 Watts
    • 10 amps * 240 VAC inverter = 2,400 Watts
    I am trying to be a "little confusing here" to show that If we deal with Watts, then we can figure out the current at any working voltage:
    • 480 Watts / 100 Vmp array = 4.8 Amps in solar array current
    • 480 Watts / 12 VDC battery = 40 Amps in 12 volt battery bus
    • 480 Watts / 24 VDC battery = 20 Amps in 24 volt battery bus
    • 480 Watts / 48 VDC battery = 10 amps in 48 volt battery bus
    • 480 Watts / 120 VAC = 4 amps to 120 VAC load
    • 480 Watts / 240 VAC = 2 amps to 240 VAC load
    If you take your 8x GC batteries, you can array them in 12/24/48 volts (2s x 4p, 4s x 2p, 8s x 1p)--They all store the same amount of energy--They just deliver it at higher voltage/lower current (P=Voltage * Current).
    Please feel free to ask more questions... You are jumping in with both feet into Electrical 101. It is confusing at first.
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I never do batteries in more than one string, it will cause problems down the road. There fore a 48 volt golf bank is affordable entry level power, if you can live on that. Most can't but my main point is that a golf bank at 48V is enough energy for many to limp along until a replacement is available.

     Order times in Covid 19 can be 10 weeks for some of the major battery companies. I just did a 10 week lead time with the store here from Surrette. I can think of dozens of folks who were saved from power misery by the good folks at Costco, or similar large chains.

    The XW 6848+ in the title here is no longer available by the way. It was replaced by XW pro. If you do find the XW+ it will have warranty if new. I would look at the Pro model as it may be less expensive and has a better warranty and serviceable farther into the future.

    Good Post Bill !
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • offgridcabin2015offgridcabin2015 Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Thankyou ALL. 
    i WILL have to email this information to myself. Electrial  101, Bill your so rite.
    I have a ton of math to learn here. but i'm up for it. 
    and i love to tinker.
    Bill ty for sharing about the product no longer avail. I sent email to both ALT -E  and canadian energy for price quote
    on the  6800 /48v  1XW pro model.
    Then the only other part i'LL need is a step down from  48v to 12v/ 20or 30amps.

    Neil 
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,212 admin
    You are very Welcome Neil.

    That was Dave A. that talked about the updated XW Pro inverter line... He is connected with the major solar/off grid power vendors. Me--I just read what is posted here (such as from Dave and others).

    And here is a page on the "basic" electrical equations (and not so basic):

    https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/10/electrical-engineering-formulas.html

    Again, please feel free to ask your questions. I/we try to go through the math/references so you can follow the logic, and expand on your questions (i.e., larger or smaller loads, different voltages, etc.) and use the "math/tables" so see how everything relates/is affected.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • offgridcabin2015offgridcabin2015 Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Question.  peeps. 

    So once i install the XW pro model 48v / 120/240.  i need advice on running wire underground 150 feet away from cabin to garage .
    my goal overall is to use my day time only to run my woodshop. 

    so not sure for the ac wire (assuming it's ac wire) that i'd be running underground that distance so i can power my tools.

    this is the whole reason i'm upgrading to this power ful inverter.

    I"m getting a few quotes on the unit as we speak.
    Anyone if I can buy direct? or must i have to buy for a vendor? like canadian energy, (literally they are right across the street from my work)

    Thankyou everyone. you'll all some knowledgeable and AMAZING. 

  • Graham ParkinsonGraham Parkinson Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭
    Here in BC you can use the direct burial NWDU (black plastic waterproof insulation) AC power cable that Home Depot sells. Can be cheaper to get from electrical wholesalers like Gescan etc.

    Has to be buried 2 feet without protection, 18" if in conduit, 12" if in conduit and covered by preserved wood planks (or concrete). Put caution ribbon in trench above wire while burying it!  Home Depot sells the condensed Electrical Code with the funny cartoons, well worth the $15 or so.

    You select the wire size by the load and desired voltage drop under load by looking it up in tables online, usually either 3% or 5% losses are typical target voltage drops.  

    For solar powered systems, wasted power is more significant so overall might work out cheaper to use heavier wire with lower losses than having to buy larger batteries, more panels.

    Or if you can get a good deal, for larger loads like a big wood shop, use the armoured Teck cable which comes in larger sizes.  As long as you use approved connectors and anti-ox paste, aluminum teck cable can be cheaper than copper.

    Bit of a project digging a 150 foot trench by hand - but that's what young-uns are for! 

    Offgrid in cloudy PNW

    MacGyver'ed museum collection of panels, castoff batteries and generators - ready for state of art system install ....

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My cost to ship, pay duty if it is being charged (it varies in Canada) is good and you should ask the store here also. However my cost that does not include panels, mounting, and battery, will not have the additional 10% off that a system has. But, you do get the expertise of a certified Schneider power system designer/installer.

    We have had ground squirrels go below 2 feet. Protecting the cable is really only if you never want to dig it up and do it again :'(
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • offgridcabin2015offgridcabin2015 Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    So experts. i was thinking. 
    Way to much digging my hand so why can't i install wire like on telephone poles. " overhead"?do i need special wire for that.?
    i want 50amp at the end of my  150 foot run / 220vac and i also wants line for  110vac too.
    thoughts?
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It could be overhead if done to code. You do not want to set a fire!   #4 stranded, 2 hots a neutral plus a ground. If you can't do this safely, an electrician can quickly get this done and be insurable if you have home insurance.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

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