Need to drain new Samsung cells to ~ 50%. Need a tester/charger etc.

softdown
softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
in New Battery Technologies #1
They were shipped at very close to 3.9 volts/cell! This will prove hard on the cells unless I can make a significant discharge pretty soon. 

Thinking I should invest in a flexible lithium battery charger/discharger/tester etc. Thinking ~$100 or so should get a decent unit. Recommendations? 
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    This unit is flexible and should be on the way pretty soon:
     https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Y8NJ84X/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    $100 was a decent estimate for a decent unit. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2020 #3
    With a shipping voltage of 3.9V the cells are likely LIPO, already at 50%, BE VERY CAREFUL  they are significantly more sensitive than their LFP cousin, I would highly recommend you study the chemistry you intend to use  before dischargeing to a value which could potentially   kill the cells, or worse.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    mcgivor said:
    With a shipping voltage of 3.9V the cells are likely LIPO, already at 50%, BE VERY CAREFUL  they are significantly more sensitive than their LFP cousin, I would highly recommend you study the chemistry you intend to use  before dischargeing to a value which could potentially   kill the cells, or worse.
    Specifics: 

    Item specifics

    Condition:
    New: A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item in its original packaging (where packaging is ... Read more
    		Country/Region of Manufacture:Korea, Republic of
    Product Type:BatteryModel:

    Samsung 30Q

    MPN:

    INR 18650 30Q

    		Battery Type:Rechargeable
    Battery Size:18650Capacity:3000mAH
    Brand:

    Unbranded

    		Rechargeable:Rechargeable
    Application:High Drain DevicesAuthentic:Authentic
    Amp Hours:35Bundle Listing:No
    Chemical Composition:Li-IonType:Rechargeable
    Voltage:3.6 VCycle Life::Over 500 Time
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    If you are right then I totally misunderstood a lot of things. This was one of the cells tested here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMZuHMlRw_0
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    The cycle like - over 500 - is very low for li-ion. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Those are NCA cells some limited information can be found in this link https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
    They are not very safe so research their limitations before using.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2020 #8
    mcgivor said:
    Those are NCA cells some limited information can be found in this link https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
    They are not very safe so research their limitations before using.
    Where did you arrive at that conclusion? NCA's are made by Panasonic for Tesla. Mine are an extremely common Samsung battery. 
    NCAs are expensive while mine were roughly $4/cell - bought in bulk. Not expensive by any means. 

    From thebatterystore.com: 

    Samsung 30Q 18650 3000mAh 15A Battery - INR18650-30Q

    This is an outstanding cell for those who like high capacity without sacrificing a lot of discharge/drain capability. This is cell is a competitor of the well-known Sony/MuRata VTC6 cell, in which the Samsung 30Q performs very similar and closely with. Many consumers will argue the better of the two, although that is subjective to each persons own demands and needs for their device. This cell has a high capacity of 3,000 mAh in energy and a true maximum continuous discharge/drain rating of 15 amps without any temperature cut involved. It has an outstanding cycle life as well and that should be definitely considered in your purchasing decision, along with its other attributes as well. This cell runs very efficiently and is very stable when used @ 15 amps. This is another great cell that many use in power packs, higher output power banks, BMS's, power tools, and high performance flashlights. This cell has proven itself time and again and is very versatile for may applications.


    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    These cells are 4.2 volts fully charged. So 3.9 isn't such a big concern after all. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    @softdown said, Where did you arrive at that conclusion? NCA's are made by Panasonic for Tesla. Mine are an extremely common Samsung battery. 
    NCAs are expensive while mine were roughly $4/cell - bought in bulk. Not expensive by any means. 

    See attached Samsung  pdf which states chemistry as NCA page 3
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #11

    Thanks! Appears that $4/cell is a bit of a bargain for such a high performance cell. I'm on p. 50 of DIY Lithium Batteries. Also ordered the Sunkko 737G+ with accessories today. This is all kind of exciting. I may be ready to make my own battery bank in several months - give or take. 

    And - almost everybody "rating" li-ion batteries are often ignoring a number of possibly important facts. Yet - they kind of have to. 


    Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2) — NCA

    Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide battery, or NCA, has been around since 1999 for special applications. It shares similarities with NMC by offering high specific energy, reasonably good specific power and a long life span. Less flattering are safety and cost. Figure 11 summarizes the six key characteristics. NCA is a further development of lithium nickel oxide; adding aluminum gives the chemistry greater stability.
     

    Snapshot of NCA

    Figure 11: Snapshot of NCA.
    High energy and power densities, as well as good life span, make NCA a candidate for EV powertrains. High cost and marginal safety are negatives.
    Source: Cadex


    Summary Table

    Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide: LiNiCoAlO2 cathode (~9% Co), graphite anode               
    Short form: NCA or Li-aluminum.                                                                                                     Since 1999
    Voltages3.60V nominal; typical operating range 3.0–4.2V/cell
    Specific energy (capacity)200-260Wh/kg; 300Wh/kg predictable
    Charge (C-rate)0.7C, charges to 4.20V (most cells), 3h charge typical, fast charge possible with some cells
    Discharge (C-rate)1C typical; 3.00V cut-off; high discharge rate shortens battery life
    Cycle life500 (related to depth of discharge, temperature)
    Thermal runaway150°C (302°F) typical, High charge promotes thermal runaway
    Cost~$350 per kWh (Source: RWTH, Aachen)
    ApplicationsMedical devices, industrial, electric powertrain (Tesla)
    Comments

    2019 update:    		Shares similarities with Li-cobalt. Serves as Energy Cell.

    Mainly used by Panasonic and Tesla; growth potential.

    Table 12: Characteristics of Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide.

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
    One has to consider the individual cell cost, when the aggregate is counted the cost is roughly double that of LiFePo4 large format, not including the labor of spot welding and the integrity of the battery as a whole, the equipment needed to perform that adds to the overall expense.

    Don't take this as discouragement, making a small battery is an educational process, however when you want to  upscale  to a larger system using larger cells simplifies the whole process, each has its advantages and disadvantages, personally I like to keep it simple, each to their own.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2020 #13
    These cells are very popular for power tools and that will be their usage. I don't foresee making significant power banks from cylindrical cells for a few reasons:
    1) Prismatic is much simpler since very few cells are required. Just four 100 aH cells and a BMS and bus bars are needed. Maybe a Victron Battery Saver as well. Can such "home made" batteries be hooked up in serial? A question addressed by the BMS - I think.
    2) BMS systems would require soldering on all but LTO cylindrical cells. Soldering injures cells due to the inevitable hot spot incurred. 
    3) Thermal runaway seems to be a greater risk with a large number of cells. It only takes one cell to rupture to take out the rest. Building your own fuses would help but that would be very tedious and also requires soldering to each and every cell. 

    Right now I am favoring the purchase of used electric car cells such as BMW or Volt or Leaf. Making small batteries is interesting enough. The economies of making larger batteries seems questionable given the readily available alternatives. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
    · Share on Twitter

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