Lead acid vs lithium batteries

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samcaddle
samcaddle Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
I have a houseboat with an off grid system.  I currently use Six 6volt L16 wet acid batteries set up as a 12volt bank for my battery bank.  I feed a 12 volt DC house side and supply 12 volts to an inverter to make the 110 for the AC side.  I was watching one of the Az W&S videos that talked about lithium batteries for off grid systems.  At the point I need to replace my batteries would lithium be an option for my 12 volt system?  I typically get 6 or 7 years out of my L16's.  Thanks, Sam
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    You seem to be getting good life out of your L-16's.   The advantage of Li on a houseboat is much less weight and volume.  So, when you are coming up on battery replacement, it would be a candidate.  As time goes on, the battery bundles (cells & BMS) are getting better.
     And then you have to have a BMS for over/under charge
    Reset your chargers to new Li voltages
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
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    This link  http://nordkyndesign.com/assembling-a-lithium-iron-phosphate-marine-house-bank/  may answer many of the general questions you have, the switch would be very rewarding especially considering the weight /space and efficacy they would provide.  
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • samcaddle
    samcaddle Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭
    #4
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    Thanks for the feedback.  I currently spend just under 300 per battery for the L16's so all in they are almost 1800 dollars.  Any idea what a comparable amp hour setup with lithium's would run me?  Thanks again, Sam
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  • samcaddle
    samcaddle Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭
    #5
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    The L16's are Decca wet acid 370 Ah batteries.  I set them up to have 3 12volt pairs feeding 12 volts to Inverter and house bus bars.  Just FYI.
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  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2020 #6
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    That very much depends on whether you want to set up a bank using prebuilt LFP batteries like Battleborn, Relion, or Simpliphi or get individual large prismatic cells and build the battery bank yourself. If your current bank is 740AH then you'll need at least 500AH of LFP capacity. The name brands will cost close to $5000 and up for a 500AH bank. A 720AH DIY bank would be less than $3300 with a BMS. The name brands are pretty much, charge them up, connect them in parallel and you're done. The DIY bank will require top balancing (parallel charging) with a 3.65V 20 amp charger (about $75) and installation with the battery management system. Not too difficult if you are hands on and somewhat technically inclined. 

    Rick

    EDIT: Sorry, I see your current bank is 1100AH, The name brands go up to 7 to 8 thousand and the 720AH DIY bank is still a sufficient replacement.
          
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    One perspective I keep focusing on regarding lithium batteries - one may break even after maybe ~ 15 years or so. But how many people move or sell or lose interest in that 15 years? Generally speaking one could get a significant return by investing in a stable fund plus have rainy day funds available.

    On the other hand, if the grid goes down, the lithium batteries will hopefully keep one going for a very long time. Though it is likely the grid would return to functionality in 3-4 years or so. Lithium batteries may be more likely to be stolen as well. Not many are going to walk away with batteries that weigh over 125 pounds each - or so I might think.

    I think about the unlikely because the unlikely happens to me - every time I turn around it would seem.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Ampster
    Ampster Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭✭
    #8
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    I just paid $125 per kWh delivered to my door in Northern California for 28kWhrs of Lithium. I used an Alibaba vendor several others have used with luck. For a 10kWhr pack that might cost a little more. The transport was by sea. Air Cargo quotes are not competitive with so few flights from China. 
    8 kW Enphase micros AC coupled to a SolArk 12K
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
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    $3500 then? Shipping included? How long did shipping take?
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Ampster said:
    I just paid $125 per kWh delivered to my door in Northern California for 28kWhrs of Lithium. I used an Alibaba vendor several others have used with luck. For a 10kWhr pack that might cost a little more. The transport was by sea. Air Cargo quotes are not competitive with so few flights from China. 
    So you bought 32 of the Eve 280AH aluminum cased cells from Xuba. Definitely a good price. I've been watching that thread on Will's DIY Solar forum. They appear to be good cells from the posts in the thread. Are you going to use them with the Sky Box?
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
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  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
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    softdown said:
    $3500 then? Shipping included? How long did shipping take?
    FYI: This is the thread on the DIY solar forum that discusses the LFP cells that Ampster mentioned. A lot of information there.

    https://diysolarforum.com/threads/xuba-electronics-deal-280ah-lifepo4-cells-purchase-review.3850/

    Rick
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
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  • Ampster
    Ampster Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭✭
    #12
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    I got inspired by that thread but used Deligreen because their freight quote was less expensive and they took Paypal. I could not get my Capital One card to work on Alibaba because it was my first purchase. 
    8 kW Enphase micros AC coupled to a SolArk 12K
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  • Ampster
    Ampster Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2020 #13
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    softdown said:
    $3500 then? Shipping included? How long did shipping take?
    30 to 35 days estimated. They just went on the boat. I will get them in June.
    8 kW Enphase micros AC coupled to a SolArk 12K
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