I guess it is Official... Northern California cannot keep the utility power on in sunny/warm weather

icarus · October 2019

Sorry folks, but to blame the scope of this situation “on liberals” just illustrates the problems we have in the country, and how far we are from solutions to many of the issues that confront us, most especially in this case, whether you “believe” in it or not, climate change. The tenor of this conversation is what drives away thoughtful conversation, leading to nothing but “yelling” at the other side. Sorry, not going to participate, and if this forum embraces such “conversations” going forward, I will be rarely about. (Not that most would care anyway I’m guessing).

Tony

Marc Kurth · October 2019

But Tony, it is about using critical thinking skills - not political affiliations.

Even the definition of the labels "Liberals" and "Conservatives" have become rapidly moving targets! Spirited discussions are an important part of exploring problems. The key is that some people tend to resort to name calling when others strongly disagree with their position. Others take a more aloof passive-aggressive approach of condescension, BOTH can be calmed with reasoned responses. Yes, some people take it personally and get their feelings hurt. That is the nature of public discussion without Safe Spaces.

Respectfully,

Marc

icarus · October 2019

Marc,

My point is...in my experience many informational forums such as this, including some very good ones (and I include this on in that short list) get essentially ruined when the conversation veers from the topic at hand, solar and wind energy, to politics. It is not about “safe spaces or taking it personally, it is about the slow erosion of civility that permeates these places.

We all have a million public forums to discuss politics, to try to articulate cogent arguments as to why we are “right”, or why we think this or that policy should or should not be implemented. From news site comment sections, to reddit to all manner in between. Why must every place we visit be subjected to politics...left or right. It is not, as some have argued “censorship” or prior restraint. It is simply a matter of the site sponsor making a choice not too allow certain conversations on the site that they provide and pay for. If NAWS is happy with such an arraignment, then that is is their right, but I also have the right to not participate. As I said, if the forum gets tainted (as so many others have, despite the best efforts of moderators to “protect freedom of speech”) once the tone of the conversation comes in, it is never the same again. As I said, I’ve seen it in several forums that I used as resources in the past.

I can (and do) have lively, spirited conversations both in person and on line and at the end of the day respect and even admire the other’s ability to debate. That doesn’t generally happen in on line information forums. I would just Ike to return to the “old days” when I was a moderator on this forum where IIRC we had a basic policy of not veering to far into the political realm. A gentle reminder from Bill or myself suggesting that someone was getting too close to the line was enough to keep it from falling into the abyss.

End of rant..

Tony

Marc Kurth · October 2019

Tony,

I believed that the purpose of the "In the Weeds" section is to allow deviation from the pure Technical forums. Otherwise I would not be having this discussion with you now.

I am an optimist and I believe that problems can be reigned in if they are heading toward ruination of the forum. While I most certainly do recognize the reason for your caution, It would appear that we diverge on a key point: I don't see it as a sharp edged fall into the abyss, as you describe. The tone here can change with the breeze.

Best,

Marc

icarus · October 2019

All I’m saying I guess is...even though we title it “in the weeds” (a way to try to regulate the content) the tone does permeate eventually into the broader forum. I’m guessing I am fighting a losing battle.

t

mcgivor · October 2019

Politics should be kept out of the forum, I agree totally with Tony @icarus , there are other places to vent opinions of political nature, further this should be extended to religious opinions as well as race and or nationality.

Wheelman55 · October 2019

As a daily reader and occasional contributor, I agree with Tony and McGiver. Keep politics out of the forum. I believe that they belong elsewhere.

My heart does indeed go out to those affected by these disasters though.

Here’s hoping that we can keep things from going to far “into the weeds “.

mike95490 · October 2019

For my town, the PSPS started Saturday 26th 5:30pm. (PG&E's euphemism for "in the interest of public safety, since our system cannot operate safely in a 30 mph wind, we will turn off the power)

Gas stations and grocery stores are down.   City water & sewer running on backup generators.   All of Mendocino County (and 20+ other counties in nor calif) is offline. Most of the cell towers are in remote locations and after today (72hours) may be getting ready to run out of fuel. A couple business had backup generators in place, but about 25% are now offline, mostly mechanical failure, and one was stolen and towed away. We are looking at Thursday 31st AM as the first reasonable expectation to start getting power back. That will be 120 hours (5 days) and well into a maintenance cycle for generators having been run 24/7
No refrigerated goods at all.
Safeway is selling dry goods off the shelf by flashlight and cash only.
Costco in Ukiah brought in a generator to run the gas pumps 24/7 to the general public, but it failed after 20 hours, and a replacement is in the works.

Late this afternoon, smoke started arriving, which will impact my solar harvest tomorrow.   Most of the town is going to have PTSD.

BB. · October 2019

I was a bit surprised--The Safeway up near Highway 92 and Interstate 280 (in the San Mateo Hills), had a good sized diesel genset up and running--And they were operating normally (looked like a plumber/electrician of some sort babysitting the genset). Must have been running from Saturday evening to Monday afternoon (one of the local blackouts areas). They only had a few days to prep.

Not a lot of stores/businesses in the area (couple of strip malls, and a Solar City building--At least it used to be a year ago... Not sure now). And a local Junior College--All shutdown. Some cities had cops at traffic lights which were out, and our city--Nothing, not even stop signs in the intersections. Everybody seemed to have different ideas of what to do/what was needed.

For us, not bad, mostly residential areas in the hills lost power. The major business districts and denser residential areas were mostly powered/normal life.

Have not talked to anyone on the coast below SF--Large areas without power, and not great access (a North/South Highway 1, and a couple of East/West roads for many miles of coastline.

Did not look like many homes around my in-laws' had generators setup... Just very quiet (not many people around either).

We have gotten pretty spoiled with decent services, and even major issues (from wildfire, earthquakes, to gas main explosions), usually areas affected were on the order of square blocks to scattered square miles (wild fires tended to be low density) around the state... Not entire region wiped out (like we can sometimes see with major storms/hurricanes at time/other places).

These power outages (at least seemed to me) a first for a near statewide infrastructure failure that may wake people up for disaster preparedness.

-Bill

Dave Angelini · October 2019

It is hard to leave the politics out when you have watched the steady decline of the 5 largest economy in the world. Especially when you were born and raised. California is a lesson in unintended consequences and a perfect example of a republic with one party in almost complete control. Not too many checks and balances.

If you do not like Bill's thread you do not have to respond. I am sure he will tell us if it is out of the norm. Please do keep it civil.

As for the fairly dangerous use of the dryer receptacle/genset, I think it should always be stated that this is a fairly easy way to cause major problems and should be only used in an emergency. It should then be done correctly for the future with several different options. You can easily see that if there were a fire, the insurance on the property could be denied. With the losses that insurance companies are suffering this is not going in your favor.

When I do a fire inspection for offgrid the first thing I see is the report that the fire guys wrote on scene. Almost all of my experience is with offgrid and so dryer outlet style connections to a generator are not used. If enough of the structure was saved you can count on the report noting a cable coming out of the laundry room window to a genset.

Bottom line, if you do this type of connection, do it once and then spend the $500 or so to do this properly. It may seem safe to you but there is a long list of unintended consequence just like what is happening to California.

BB. · October 2019

Regarding political and other discussions... I am hoping that folks talk with respect to each other and discuss the facts, not the person(s).

The politics of California are a fact.

I really like Tony/Icarus and years ago enjoyed discussing government programs and their results right here on the forum--Even though he and I are probably miles (kilometers) apart in political leanings.

Understand his worries that politics (and other hot button subjects like battery desulfators) can really derail a forum. But I try for the "discuss the post, not the poster" style here. Trying to guess what is in another person's mind from behind a keyboard--Just does not usually work out very well.

I have had to do very little in the way of moderating here. Most everyone has been very well behaved... But there are always a person or two who try to push the boundaries. But that is normal human nature. So far, I have just deleted perhaps 2 or 3 posts and light editing on 1 or 2 others. I have not done any warnings or bannings over pushing the limits. Humor and style are sometimes just in the eye of the beholder and I am not going to go full schoolmarm on anyone. Just a nudge if/when needed.

But I do take I do take feedback from the rest of the forum members too... I am always learning.

-Bill "have fun" B.

icarus · October 2019

I know...I shouldn’t comment after my rant but guess what? I’m a hypocrite, and I admit it so here goes... Remember a few years back when one party controlled all of CA? (It wasn’t the current party). Bottom line, things change, and you (we ) have to be vigilant to work for and vote for candidates that not only appeal to us, but who understand that working hard for constituents, AND, making compromises. In it current era, compromise is a dirty word amongst virtually all elected officials as it is seen as a sign of weakness, (and they get primaries out by a fickle, self interested single issue electorate.

signing out,

t

softdown · October 2019

I'm an old schooler who prefers 20th century individualism over neogroupthink. Being a California centric thread it seems prudent to allow the affected Californians to air out their experienced insights gleaned from decades of study.

While many find politics distasteful it is true that our lives are largely controlled by the acts of politicians. The head in the sand approach may be comforting to the ostrich but not an effective real world solution.

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Einstein

"Truth is treason in an empire of lies."

Voltaire, Orwell, Paul and Assange

Dave Angelini · October 2019

It was alot more than a few years Tony, and his party was in name only. This really started in the 1980's here and it was a complete end to forest management, end of timber, the clean air act, the endangered species act, and forcing the utility to be green.

To be fair it also is a State with 9 of the top 10 most polluted air cities in the US.

I do not care if you are a hypocrite, it is free speech! You can see it happening in the chart.

Estragon · October 2019

I suspect politics and energy are going to be entangled for at least the near term. If nothing else, CA makes for an interesting test case for when policy changes are proposed elsewhere.

BB. · October 2019

The time when Rs controlled California more or less consistently, was from ~1900 to 1958. Since 1958, there has only been one year with Gov and both house+senate were controlled by Rs (1970), the rest of the years were pretty much full D control of house+senate, and flipping governors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_California

I am not big on compromising between parties. That, many times, involves compromising my principles... Why have principles if they are so easy to bend/break...

The judicial branches of government have been, in my humble opinion, have been way too involved in what are truly political decisions. Can take standing law, and with a simple reinterpretation and words, make them mean the exact opposite with the stroke of a pen.

I find it hard to respect Judicial 5:4 court Supreme Court decisions... They are not compromising their positions, and apparently unable to convince one side or the other of the strength of their arguments. Just looks like politics of the "appointed, not elected". And when decisions are appealed/overturned, should there not be consequences for the judge/judges/etc. being on the "losing" side?

-Bill

Marc Kurth · October 2019

Gentlemen, I do understand your angst, Do you also feel that pseudo-scientific topics should also be kept out?

BB. said:

The time when Rs controlled California more or less consistently, was from ~1900 to 1958. Since 1958, there has only been one year with Gov and both house+senate were controlled by Rs (1970), the rest of the years were pretty much full D control of house+senate, and flipping governors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_California

I am not big on compromising between parties. That, many times, involves compromising my principles... Why have principles if they are so easy to bend/break...

The judicial branches of government have been, in my humble opinion, have been way too involved in what are truly political decisions. Can take standing law, and with a simple reinterpretation and words, make them mean the exact opposite with the stroke of a pen.

I find it hard to respect Judicial 5:4 court Supreme Court decisions... They are not compromising their positions, and apparently unable to convince one side or the other of the strength of their arguments. Just looks like politics of the "appointed, not elected". And when decisions are appealed/overturned, should there not be consequences for the judge/judges/etc. being on the "losing" side?

-Bill

Very well stated, Sir.

icarus · October 2019

I am not against “principle”. That said, politics for better or worse is the art of the possible, rather than blind loyalty to idealogy. Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is problematic. If everyone stuck to their “principle” 100% on every issue, then nothing would get done. (As is the case right now in DC.). A certain segment of the population would argue that getting ‘nothing done” is a good thing, EXCEPT, the price we pay for a civilized society is dependent on “getting stuff done”. Things like roads and bridges, safe drinking water, schools, public works infrastructure, police, fire, national defense etc. the problem is one persons “rule” for a civilized society might be another ball and chain. Want clean air? Fine, don’t want restrictions on car emissions because it compromises your principles of self reliance? Well...where does that leave us.

This forum is interesting as it seems to be populated by a divergent group of folks. Many of us early members were here for help simply because we used alt.energy simply to live. Others came as early adopters of the technology. Now that that technology has become sort of mainstream, our members have as well. From pure greenies who embrace the technology as a savior from CO2 etc, to back to the land “hippy types” who tuned in, dropped out to escape as much of the modern world as they could, to Preppers who are convinced that end-of the world scenarios are real and that they want to be prepared, to suburbanites who simply want to explore the technology, and might like to save money by “going solar”. Personally, I fall into a number of these categories, being an early adopter, CO2 issues, living remotely, and simply by virtue of where I have lived, sort of a tuned in dropped out type, not in a traditional sense but simply because of where I have lived. (Being largely self sufficient probably puts me in the “preppier camp” as well I suppose, and finally I consult for some folks trying to save money both with some off grid installations as well as some grid tie installations.

My entire rant is, let’s not let the vitriol of our modern politics ooze into our forum in a way that destroys what is a very useful service from so many types regardless of “our principles”.

Tony

BB. · October 2019

Do you also feel that pseudo-scientific topics should also be kept out?

By itself, I, personally, have no issues with the discussions... As long as we discuss the posts, not the person...

Homeopathic medicine, dilute until there is no detectable trace of the "medication/active ingredients"... I don't believe in it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

However, I believe in both placebos and positive attitudes can have positive outcomes for some people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

So, to outright dismissal of Homeopathic treatments would seem to be a hypocrisy on my part.

-Bill

petertearai · October 2019

Being a long way from america i find this forum very useful and i enjoy the weeds section , its good to get a diverse range of views . I think it is also good to keep this in the one section . We are getting images of the fires on our network tv . Can't imagine how it must be coping with it at first hand .

niel · October 2019

If I may be so bold as to address individuals on here as was done to me many times.

From BB "These power outages (at least seemed to me) a first for a near statewide infrastructure failure that may wake people up for disaster preparedness."

I guess this is as close to you admitting you were wrong for always pushing the GT systems without mentioning the option of GT with battery backup. I always had to inject that option after your posts years ago. There are many in Cal. that probably wish that had the battery backup right now with all of the spoiled foods and lack of lights. You can't run a genny overnight in many areas either. Gas is also a problem in keeping a genny going as gas stations need power to pump it.

From BB "I have not done any warnings or bannings over pushing the limits."

Coot and I would emphatically disagree. You can't water down some things and you have to be big enough to admit wrongs. I'm human and admitted my wrongs many times. Too many used that against me in a constant shout down against myself and a few others. It's the left coast that's dominant in this forum now and it's not hard to connect dots, nothing personal.

Icarus, I am glad to see you are finally posting and I hope all is well with you.

Westbranch Do know I wasn't indicating anything against you so no need for your defensive posture unless you were doing damage control for others. Yes, Coot and I are still around and we keep in contact. I hope all is well up there in frigidland.

To many others who don't know me, I'm a blast from the past and former administrator.

mcgivor · October 2019

the Weeds--Member's Choice

Any topics/discussions are fair game. Political topics and other topics of issue (like guns, religion, etc.) are discouraged at this time. We have international members and some topics can cause problems for them, and US politics are probably of little interest to them. Be kind.

icarus · October 2019

Nice to hear from you Neil. Welcome back. Tony.

Agree 1005 with Mcgivor as well.

Dave Angelini · October 2019

Don't take this wrong Tony but your knowledge on California politics illustrates perfectly the problem here.
Many California voters have less understanding of how this happened to the 5th largest economy in the world.

I really like how Bill runs this forum and would never want to go back to the way it was, NEVER

Estragon · October 2019

FWIW, I was around (mostly lurking) when Coot et al were posting, and learned much of what I needed to know to design & install my system from those posting at the time. For the most part, the system has worked out pretty well.

After then, I got too busy for a while to follow regularly and don't really know what happened to get them banned. I found and still find conflicting opinions to be useful in getting a better understanding of the pros and cons of an issue.

I can only guess that conversations devolved from reasonable differences of opinion on issues to more ad hominem arguments.

BB. · October 2019

Well, regarding GT solar, 10 years ago I was saying:

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/70831#Comment_70831

sorry bill, i just don't feel sorry for those poor utilities having to put up with us. they are not hurting and they scheme like most other conglomerates on how to steal your $. your stance is confusing to say the least.

I did not say I felt sorry for them... I said I understand their business issues. The utilities are in bed with with the California PUC--so they certainly have paid for the seat at the table.

But--that is not always a good thing--both of our major utilities nearly went bankrupt in 2000-2001 directly because of state laws and regulations (see how well those utility campaign contributions worked?)... The only thing that "saved" the utilities from bankruptcy, was the fact that state took at a $25,000,000 40 year loan (note from 2019--That was $25,000,000,000 loan--not enough zeros. -BB) to pay for that farce of a "deregulation" set of laws to pay for a summer's worth of stupidity (and state refusal to change the laws for months on end).

And--that confusion of yours is the direct result of my responding to government polices... The conservation part I did was because I am cheap and don't believe in waste.

The Solar GT system was installed because the "government" was giving me close to $10,000 in cash and tax rebates to install my system. And--because this was just after the whole deregulation nightmare a few years before--I did not trust the state not to double my rates--so getting a chance to set my own rate at $0.14-$0.17 per kWhr seemed like a good bet.

Net Metering--another government business killing plan. Make my utility buy back power at retail and sell it back to me at retail--when ~1/2 the utility's cost is for the distribution network to move power around and is unrelated to the cost of generating the power... I would be stupid not to take them up on that offer (this is the environment the government has set up--just like the Mafia--make an offer the business cannot refuse and then "customers" take them up on the money losing "offer"--only a government or organized crime ring can pull this one off).

The Governments offered (now is forcing) solar GT connections to take Time of Use metering... $0.09 off peak, and $0.30 (to $0.60 maximum) on-peak rate. With Solar GT--I "sell" for $0.30 per kWhr, and "buy" at $0.09 per kWhr... And I am current averaging $300+ worth of credit per year on my power bill (may install that A/C or Electric Car--especially now that the government is paying me to buy both--when I probably would have bought neither without the government subsidies--in my case, actually, again, encouraging more resource consumption by me).

Would I have conserved without Government "Welfare"--Yes... And in fact I did even though there were/are welfare payments available to me for doing exactly that.

If I trusted my government to not mess thing up even more, and I did not get the welfare payments--Would I have installed GT Solar on my home... Probably not.

As it is right now, because of all of these government regulations that force subsidized utility rates for the "poor" (and cheap like me--who is not poor)--The first 300 kWhrs per month is actually a fraction less per kWhr than it was in 1996 (around $0.11 per kWhr). Certainly not what we are supposed to be seeing--a constant energy cost inflation due to overall inflation and ever increasing energy costs. So--at least for small consumers--an intensive to increase (or at least not conserve) for the "little guy".

For the big guy--if they want to conserve using renewable resources (say using ag waste)--they have to pay for stranding the utilty infrastructure (again, another government PUC requirement)--so there is the distinctive there (but I am sure there are other government payments that can offset those distinctives).

I have always said that GT Solar was "welfare" for the "rich" (homeowners). I have said that GT and other government policies will bankrupt the utilities. California has already done it once, now 20 years ago, and through Environmental and PUC laws/regulations has done it again:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/business/pge-bankruptcy-fires/index.html

I have said that these policies are just like Mafia... Welfare, Mafia, business killing, only installed GT Solar because of the "free" government money.

Regarding solar as backup power... A $1,000 genset, less than $1,000 for wiring, fuel, generator supplies--All 100 lbs put in a small storage building for 20 years... Way cheaper than a full Offgrid/Hybrid solar power system. Plus, a Honda eu2000i genset plus 10 gallons of fuel, and I can haul to my inlaws (who actually had the power outage) and with too many extension cords, I had them with power in an hour.

Try that with a GT or off grid Solar...

And, 10 years later, my $$/kWH cost from PG&E is >2x the 2009 price. And PG&E is bankrupt. Businesses failing/moving out of state, etc.

-Bill

softdown · October 2019

Dave Angelini said:

Don't take this wrong Tony but your knowledge on California politics illustrates perfectly the problem here.
Many California voters have less understanding of how this happened to the 5th largest economy in the world.

I really like how Bill runs this forum and would never want to go back to the way it was, NEVER

Couldn't agree more that BB is about as fair as a person can be. This is easily the most polite discussion board that I know of.

As far as adversarial opinions being aired out - that is the signature of progress. Imagine if Tesla had been hushed due to Edison's resume. There should be a statue of Tesla at the entrance of every power plant. A giant statue.

niel · October 2019

@Icarus I just came back to get a feel if things changed for the better here and I find they're worse. I can't go along with people who are to advise others, but instead dictates what is good for him is good for all. I have no intention of wanting to "run" this forum as it is nothing more than a click anymore and if I don't fit the click I'll get banned anyway as a grump too. Funny how people run to kiss up when they have no idea what I'm talking about or anything about me. Nope, I'm not back as i wanted to be sure the same crap wouldn't get thrown and it would be. Take care.

jonr · October 2019

I agree that most people are loyal to a party when they should be loyal to facts and logic. Hint: the latter doesn't come from Facebook.

westbranch · November 2019

Niel , no offense taken. Take care, good to hear you are still around. I guess which ever post you are referring to ,must be written in my usual non-confrontational style whatever that is. I seldom use my burning ember / zinger, maybe occasionally when emailing a friend, but the arrow is pointing outwards..Usually at our lackluster Politico's .... they are everywhere.... Smack one down by Un-Voting him and another pops up!

I guess it is Official... Northern California cannot keep the utility power on in sunny/warm weather

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