Meters and measurement tools for beginner?

1911
1911 Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
edited September 2019 in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Hello,

Can you anybody reccomend some measurement tools that would be useful to monitor a small first-time 12v solar system?

I am assuming I need a volt and amp meter....anything else?

any particular brands or models you can reccomend? 

Thanks!
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  • 1911
    1911 Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    #2
    These are the two systems I am about to wire together and start playing with. Each system will have 2 x 100w 12v panels in series to charge a 84ah battery. (I ordered another mppt cc, so will not be using the pwm cc in the pic)
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  • 1911
    1911 Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    #3
    Any reason to NOT get the Fluke 325?

    it looks like it has the right features.
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Fluke are very good professional grade meters, the 325 has the right features, if you can justify the price it's a good choice, there are others at a fraction of the cost which are adequate for the needs of most.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • 1911
    1911 Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    #5
    mcgivor said:
    Fluke are very good professional grade meters, the 325 has the right features, if you can justify the price it's a good choice, there are others at a fraction of the cost which are adequate for the needs of most.
    Ok, thanks. Is there a brand or model you can recommend?

    When I thought I had identified a cheaper model I ran across critical reviews. Several had to do with inaccuracies with low values. 

    What brand/model would you buy for yourself?

    Thanks for the advice!
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #6
    Klein Tools makes reasonably priced DVM's for the pros. If you are looking for a clamp meter (recommended)  be sure it will meter DC power. Many will do AC/DC voltage but only AC current.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,685 admin
    #7
    This one has worked well for me... And is ~$12 cheaper than the last time I looked/purchased.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019CY4FB4

    Remember that DC current clamp measurements need to be Zeroed for accurate measurements (and the dc current meter does drift a bit--the nature of the beast).

    The Low Z function is nice... There are times when you put a meter on a circuit and read high/unstable voltage--And placing a resistor/load across the terminals, the voltage drops to zero (the High Z function on this meter is a 3 kOhm load).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • 1911
    1911 Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    #8
    BB. said:
    This one has worked well for me... And is ~$12 cheaper than the last time I looked/purchased.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019CY4FB4

    Remember that DC current clamp measurements need to be Zeroed for accurate measurements (and the dc current meter does drift a bit--the nature of the beast).

    The Low Z function is nice... There are times when you put a meter on a circuit and read high/unstable voltage--And placing a resistor/load across the terminals, the voltage drops to zero (the High Z function on this meter is a 3 kOhm load).

    -Bill

    1911 said:
    mcgivor said:
    Fluke are very good professional grade meters, the 325 has the right features, if you can justify the price it's a good choice, there are others at a fraction of the cost which are adequate for the needs of most.
    Ok, thanks. Is there a brand or model you can recommend?

    When I thought I had identified a cheaper model I ran across critical reviews. Several had to do with inaccuracies with low values. 

    What brand/model would you buy for yourself?

    Thanks for the advice!
    Ordered, thanks!
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,960 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Bunch of tightwads here. This is the meter: https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Current-Resistance-Amperometric-Multimeter/dp/B07Y211PWK/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=digital+clamp+meter&qid=1569701241&s=hi&sr=1-1

    I kid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • billybob9
    billybob9 Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭
    #10
    LOL, yeah you'll get that on Amazon and Ebay. Often on Ebay things that have been setting on the shelf to long, go for a quarter on the dollar and brand new. Four brush motors are now brushless so these light weight guys were a steal. 
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    softdown said:
    Bunch of tightwads here. This is the meter: https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Current-Resistance-Amperometric-Multimeter/dp/B07Y211PWK/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=digital+clamp+meter&qid=1569701241&s=hi&sr=1-1

    I kid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    It comes w/ free shipping. I just ordered two!  :#:smiley:

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,960 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2019 #12
    littleharbor2 said:
    softdown said:
    Bunch of tightwads here. This is the meter: https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Current-Resistance-Amperometric-Multimeter/dp/B07Y211PWK/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=digital+clamp+meter&qid=1569701241&s=hi&sr=1-1

    I kid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    It comes w/ free shipping. I just ordered two!  :#:smiley:
    Good show old chap! I keep one in the glove (mink gloves of course) box of each of my 73 fine motorized vehicles. Which reminds me of a present quandary. We are preparing an older 2015 jet for our annual trot about Baja with three of my highly specialized dune buggies. As soon as this old girl is retro-fit we can fit the buggies inside and keep my strippers, I mean girlfriends happy. They like to have a buggy for each pair of girls. Helps hold all the jewelry they are keen to acquire in their shopping sprees.

    I'm afraid this particular jet somehow lost some braking power during our multitudinous trips to the Andes and Switzerland. Those short runways in the high mountains I'm afraid. We now require a runway at least a half mile long. Can your airport accommodate that? Is it willing to allow an almost five year old jet to land and transact some local business? She is in rather fine shape in spite of the years. If you can pull the necessary strings I should be able to free up some time for you at my island in the Maldives. My finest yacht is usually tied up there and the crew is, shall we say, absolutely scandalous! They just can't seem to keep a thread of decent clothing on!


    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • 1911
    1911 Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    #13
    billybob9 said:
    LOL, yeah you'll get that on Amazon and Ebay. Often on Ebay things that have been setting on the shelf to long, go for a quarter on the dollar and brand new. Four brush motors are now brushless so these light weight guys were a steal. 
    I am pretty sure I got you beat....i recently scored 5000 fish hooks for $20 bucks. 
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  • NANOcontrol
    NANOcontrol Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭✭
    #14
    The UT210E is about $40 and having a DC clamp is nice for multiple panels in parallel.  It physically doesn't stay in one place very well for ohms and volts. Prefer other meters for that.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,685 admin
    #15
    Here is an Amazon link for NANO's suggested meter and similar (lower cost).


    They are usually fine for our debugging needs.

    Just make sure the current clamp is AC + DC rated, not just AC only (both types are good meters, but we use the DC current clamp on battery powered systems. AC only is typical for utility powered systems.

    Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • 1911
    1911 Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭
    #16
    Do you guys ever use a regular multimeter for anything on solar systems?
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    With lead acid batteries a DC clamp on ammeter is accurate enough, when dealing with lithium cells or electronics a more accurate meter is preferred, these are generally regular type with a higher resolution and the better the quality, more expensive, the more accurate. Personally I use both depending on application.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #18
    I use regular (cheap) multimeters a lot, mostly for checking AC and DC voltages and wire continuity.  The cheap ones generally work well enough for my needs.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,960 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    I might be willing to bet that the vast majority of multimeter work is just that - checking voltage. My dad could do a lot with his Fluke, for some reason I felt like I could get by without those capabilities. Which I regret on occasion. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • solorone
    solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
    #20
    1911 said:
    BB. said:
    This one has worked well for me... And is ~$12 cheaper than the last time I looked/purchased.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019CY4FB4

    Remember that DC current clamp measurements need to be Zeroed for accurate measurements (and the dc current meter does drift a bit--the nature of the beast).

    The Low Z function is nice... There are times when you put a meter on a circuit and read high/unstable voltage--And placing a resistor/load across the terminals, the voltage drops to zero (the High Z function on this meter is a 3 kOhm load).

    -Bill

    1911 said:
    mcgivor said:
    Fluke are very good professional grade meters, the 325 has the right features, if you can justify the price it's a good choice, there are others at a fraction of the cost which are adequate for the needs of most.
    Ok, thanks. Is there a brand or model you can recommend?

    When I thought I had identified a cheaper model I ran across critical reviews. Several had to do with inaccuracies with low values. 

    What brand/model would you buy for yourself?

    Thanks for the advice!
    Ordered, thanks!
    Totally agree, I have been through 3  Fluke 33/34? over 36 years.  I paid $104 for this unit, and I considered it a good deal, it will fit 4 Ought wire, Works very well and reading is agreeing with other instruments.
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  • pdh
    pdh Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭✭
    #21
    Precision voltage references are inexpensive and can help put your mind at ease... I have this one, which apparently isn't available anymore, but it cost about $15 if I recall correctly:


    There are others like it available from Amazon and elsewhere. Power it from a 15 - 30 volt supply (e.g. two 9-volt batteries in series), and it emits precisely 2.5 / 5.0 / 7.5 / 10.0 volts, depending on a switch setting. Measure the output with your multimeter as a means of testing the accuracy of said meter.

    I have accumulated 3 or 4 inexpensive multimeters over the years (all under $75). I was happy to see that they're all reasonably accurate -- definitely close enough for my needs. Surprisingly the most accurate one was not the most expensive.

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,960 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    pdh said:
    Precision voltage references are inexpensive and can help put your mind at ease... I have this one, which apparently isn't available anymore, but it cost about $15 if I recall correctly:


    There are others like it available from Amazon and elsewhere. Power it from a 15 - 30 volt supply (e.g. two 9-volt batteries in series), and it emits precisely 2.5 / 5.0 / 7.5 / 10.0 volts, depending on a switch setting. Measure the output with your multimeter as a means of testing the accuracy of said meter.

    I have accumulated 3 or 4 inexpensive multimeters over the years (all under $75). I was happy to see that they're all reasonably accurate -- definitely close enough for my needs. Surprisingly the most accurate one was not the most expensive.

    What is the utility of emitting 2.5/5/7.5/10 volts from a device powered by two 9 volt batteries?

    Another note - it was interesting to find that 9 volt batteries are made of 6 AAA batteries without much wrapping. Some claim that is not always the case. I wonder if that was before AAA batteries became very common.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #23
    The Precision Voltage Reference needs a higher voltage, to produce the Precision Voltage.   You have to decide what range of your meter is the crucial range for your expensive batteries, and select via Jumpers, the Voltage you want to check your meter against.
       If your batteries are 4.3V you chose a range on your meter that gives you good resolution at that voltage and configure the Reference to produce a voltage (5.0000V would be right for measuring 4.3v).  The reverence produces 5.0000V, if your meter reads different, it's not adjusted properly and adjustment needs to be done so your batteries will live a long life.

    9V radio batteries are often made of 6 stacked rectangular cells wrapped in the 9v case.
    All the batteries I've taken apart as a kid, none were the blue cylindrical cells.






    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • pdh
    pdh Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭✭
    #24
    > What is the utility of emitting 2.5/5/7.5/10 volts from a device powered by two 9 volt batteries?

    The output voltage is not intended to power anything, it's a precise reference voltage that you can use to test your multimeter.

    For example, my unit says (handwritten on the package it came in) that its 10 volt output is actually 10.00186 volts. So now I measure that 10 volt output with my meters (which only show 2 decimal places of accuracy). I'm hoping to see my meters report 10.00... or maybe 9.99 or 10.01... but if I see 10.15 on my meter for example, then I know that meter is inaccurate.

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