Lithium batteries, what is the current thinking.

solorone
solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
No I  do not have lithium, missed that boat on my last rebuild.  I have an acquaintance who is wanting a 200 Amp Lithium battery, she us conversing on a Facebook group.  For my info , has Lithium reached  practical  use ?  Are there other suggestions in place of, other than FLA, which is all I know.  To me AGM still has a bad buzz, opinions  from serious users  are welcome. Thanks,  cheers.

Comments

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018 #2
    what are the parameters of use?  boat? stationary?  Experience of user? what make is being considered? Loads? etc etc...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @solorone said, For my info , has Lithium reached  practice  use ? 

    Amidst a sea of negative opinions, perhaps based on misinformation and hearsay,  I made the decision to switch to LFP  and will never look back to iead acid. A vast majority of negative comments are based on the single word Lithium, which encompasses a range if differing chemistries, some of which can be extremely dangerous if not treated with extreme caution, while some Lifepo4 for example are much safer.

    No battery is absolutely safe, including the stalwarts of the industry, however with Lifepo4  care is needed  to ensure operating within safe parameters this is mostly done with electronic protection wether by voltage limitations on charging/dischargeing or through the use of a battery monitoring system or BMS to take care of the control.

    Having a strong electrical  background  is needed,  particularly with a DIY bank, less so perhaps with drop in replacement types which have an on board BMS to protect itself though they have their limitations, they cannot be connected in series for example to achieve higher voltage. No personal experience with this type.

    The direct advantages in my experience are as follows. They are able to accept higher charge current without the need for long absorption resulting in better efficiency especially with generator charging . High discharge current without excessive volt drop,.  Low temperature gain, when charging and ability to operate at higher temperatures, within reason. The  ability to discharge to a much lower state of charge, no need to fully charge as needed bu LA to prevent sulfation, no watering as with FLA  (not applicable to AGM )  higher cycle potential especially when lightly used.

    Other possible advantages,  higher energy density, resulting low weight and physical size, particularly useful in mobile applications.

    Disadvantages, cannot be used in temperatures below 0°C. More  electronics adds to complexity in most cases. Higher initial cost, which is subjective if the  life expectancy is longer and the need for a lower overall Ah capacity is possible.

    These are my views and opinions, others may differ..........There are others using LFP, please share your experiences.


    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • solorone
    solorone Solar Expert Posts: 257 ✭✭✭
    Experience,, 3 years learning.

    Use,,,  is small home where they have been  3 years.

    Lower, starting out gear.  2000 W inverter  and  I think  maybe a PWM CC.

    For now I do not want to really stay with the battery  ?? and we will assume light loads, maybe a gravity water pump booster and good solar.  With  now failing  AGMs, she just  needs to replace batteries, trying make a wise choice, I offered to help. 
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    what caused the failure within 3 years?  As we all know the first batt. sets are  murdered... or was it too much discharging or too little PV to properly recharge the bank or too high a charging voltage, AGMs are particularly sensitive to too hi a charge V setting , ......
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Bass-O-Matic
    Bass-O-Matic Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭✭
    mcgivor said:

    "... cannot be used in temperatures below 0°C. ..."


    Really? I have two Costco Golf batts currently. Toying with the idea of LI but holy cow! The price sure isn't coming down from what I can see. And last year I was at -10 Fahrenheit regularly in the mountains. 

    1. Does Li really crap out below freezing?
    2. Just to confirm, my two Golf Cart batts tied together to make 12v can only go down to 50% or around 100 AH. My point it... I would want to match or exceed that in Li if I went that way

    Thanks for any tips!
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Li starts to have performance degradation below 40F, both discharge and recharge.  Recharge has to cease (for all practical purposes, a c100 rate is pretty pointless) at frost (32F / 0C)

    https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/charging_at_high_and_low_temperatures

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Bass-O-Matic
    Bass-O-Matic Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭✭
    Interesting. Thanks!

    I don't think I asked this the right way.

    What size Li Battery would I need to replace my two Costco Golf Cart batteries?
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, your 2 golf cart batteries have a daily 30% usage for  longest life or 50% usage for a shorter life

    That takes your 12V 200Ah battery (2400wh) to 720wh usable or 1200wh usable

    Li batteries generally avoid near full and near empty conditions.   so the middle 90% ( 5% off the top, 5% off the bottom of a well controlled battery) is the MAX you can get.   So to replace the 1200wh of the 50% FLA battery, you need a 1320 wh LFP battery which would be 110ah running right to the razor edge .   A more conservative approach to battery management  would be 10% from top and bottom, needing a 1440wh battery or 120ah

    A bit fuzzy this am, I hope I got the math right





    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Bass-O-Matic
    Bass-O-Matic Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭✭
    "...1440wh battery or 120ah" 

    Brilliant! Thanks good sir.






  • soylentgreen
    soylentgreen Solar Expert Posts: 111 ✭✭
    edited November 2020 #11
    I replaced my 2 GC2 golf cart batteries (rated about 220AH @ 12V for the pair) with a single LiFePO4 (100AH), and am happy with the change.

    As noted above, the Lead vs. Lithum advertised ratings aren't computed the same way.  In fact, most reputable Lithium battery makers are giving ratings of true usable capacity - 100AH advertised is a true 100AH delivered.  

    So you don't even need to shave off the 5% at top & bottom like Mike did above.

    Another benefit of Lithium is the voltage is higher and stays higher under load.   My old system would sag to 12V under heavy load, whereas the Lithium stays closer to 13V.  


  • Bass-O-Matic
    Bass-O-Matic Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭✭


    Thanks Sir. And I can't help it. "Soylent Green is People!!!!" :)
  • New_Mexico_Will
    New_Mexico_Will Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Just to clarify, Lithium Ion Phosphate batteries can be used below freezing, but they cannot be charged below freezing.  A good BMS will disconnect them around freezing temp to avoid those issues.  Really expensive batteries like Battle Born tend to have the BMS built in.
  • dmsims
    dmsims Registered Users Posts: 1
    Some LiFePO4 batteries can be charged in the range "-20°C – 55°C"
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dmsims said:
    Some LiFePO4 batteries can be charged in the range "-20°C – 55°C"
    This is a somewhat misleading statement, there are some drop in replacement types which are self heating which may allow charging at below freezing, however this is not applicable to the vast majority of passive cells or batteries.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020 #16
    Winston Thundersky makes an LYP cell which is technically an LIFePO4 cell with the addition of yttrium in the electrolyte. This changes the characteristics of the cell, mainly higher charge / discharge voltage also lower and higher charge / discharge temperatures. 

     http://en.winston-battery.com/index.php/products/power-battery/item/wb-lyp200ahab?category_id=176
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    That's why words have to be chosen carefully, there has been evolution of the chemistry since 1996 when LiFePo4 was discovered, the linked Winston cells do indeed claim extremely low/high  temperature limits but as can be seen from the discharge curve at -45°C it would be in the LBCO regon of most well designed systems.

    Strangely there's no charging/temperature  curve on the link or website, that I could find, my assumptions would be it would be better not to venture into the extreme limitations, both high or low, much like anything for that matter. When designing a system it would be prudent to provide extra capacity for supplemental heating or cooling as required to circumvent such extremes, neither of which I personally have needed to be concerned with.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree, and think the value in LYP is mainly that the cells will not be harmed if temperatures go past LFP temperature extremes without some form of protection. 
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020 #19
    At cold temp, besided reduced llithium ion mobility, the critical limitation is ability of graphite anode (neg side) to accept Li-ion charge.  Graphite will accept lithium ions storage during low temp charging at a lower charge rate.  Critical is when graphite cannot accept the rate of charging , the result is lithium plating at the anode side.  This results in non recoverable lithium which results in loss of capacity,  There is also lithum plating that can also create lithium metal dendrites which can grow severe enough to puncture into separator.

    Nextgen, for example, recommends charging at 0 to -10 degsC with a reduced rate of 10%C maximum.  At -10 degsC to -20 degsC they recommend a charging rate at 5%C rate maximum.  Since most chargers, and inverter/chargers do not have any temp based automatic charge current control this would have to be adjusted manually in advance of anticipated cold temp.

    Other factor relavent to charge or discharging, is battery impedance goes up as temp decreases. 
    At    0 degsC it is about   85% increase in Rs over room temp.
    At -10 degsC it is about 145% increase in Rs. 
    At -20 degsC it is about 215% increase in Rs. 
    At -30 degsC it is about 300% increase in Rs. 

    If you really have to deal with a cold environment, with a little insulation, thermostatically controlled heating pads consuming about the same power as an inverter idle current you can keep them warm enough.

    Probably number one cause of LFP battery 'murder' is overcharging of a cell.  There is only a 40 mV rise in single cell no load voltage from 50% state of charge to 85% SOC.  Folks get lulled into complacency at the slow voltage rise during charging.  At about 90-95% SOC the voltage rise rockets up quickly. The result is an overcharged cell that is bloated up with electrolyte decomposition and a murdered cell.  Manually watching cell voltage of a series group of cells that are not SOC matched is where this gets you into trouble.  Must maintain reasonable cell SOC balance.  Must use a BMS with balancer with per cell monitoring for high and low voltage cutout protection.

    Their big advantage particularly for solar off grid is they are pretty happy not being fully charged.  Only caveat is many BMS use a simple resistor dump to balance a cell that does not activate until above about 3.4v per cell so you have to hold cell above this voltage occasionally to achieve any cell balancing.   The resistor dump only does 100 mA to 200 mA so it only compensates for cell self discharge leakage variance.  There are active balancers that operate all the time and transfer charge efficiently between cells to balance. 

    When you buy a group of cells they may not be all at the same state of charge so fully charging cells individually to 3.65v is best way to start with all cells SOC matched at full state of charge.  This can be done with multiple cells in parallel with a voltage limit of 3.65v and current limited power supply.  It can take a long time for a low current power supply and multiple parallel cells. Most new cells arrive at about 3.300v which is about 50% SOC.  If you have 16 50% SOC 280AH cells in parallel you need to put in 16 x 140 AH = 2240AH's  which is over a week on a 10 amp power supply.