Brand new Yamaha EF6300iSDE instant overload (with video)

ron_jeremy
ron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
We have a well used Yamaha EF4500iSE that we connect to our inverter (Trace Engineering SW4024) via 3-prong 120V 30A socket in order to charge the batteries (12 x 2V 960AH C/20) that power our off-grid house. The unit is approaching the 5000-hour mark so we picked up a brand new slightly more powerful EF6300 and planned on keeping the EF4500 as a spare.

When I connect a generator to the inverter there's a 60 second "handshake" (AC In Good 2) period where nothing happens & no load is put on the generator. After 60 seconds the inverter makes a mechanical click sound, then the 'bulk' charging process begins.

However, when I plug into the EF6300 it goes into overload within a split second of inserting the plug even though it has seen zero load, as seen in this video where I'm unplugging the EF4500 (under minor/medium load) and plugging in the EF6300:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UTxzLfkGwzW4Uocb8

I tried with the 'econo mode' in either the off or on position but it does not help.
I also tried the voltage select switch in either position (120V or 120/240V) but it also made no difference.

I hauled out our old Wheelhouse 5500 and it works just fine ("AC In Good 2" for  60 seconds then switchover to "Bulk"). Then I borrowed our neighbors much smaller 3500/3000W unit & it also goes thru the handshake process just fine ("AC In Good 2" for 60 seconds then switchover to "Bulk") as seen in this next video (though it naturally begins to really struggle during the initial charging phase):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ao159PmbRXqCwjHU9

I took the EF6300 back to the dealer & they noticed that it would not power a 4000W heater so they replaced the breakers. With the new breakers installed they said it powered the heater fine so I brought it home but it's doing the exact same thing.

Any idea why this is happening?

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Is the breaker also a GFI (ground fault interrupter) breaker? It is possible that ground bonding the neutral inside the genset (common for larger gensets) and ground bonding the neutral in the home/main panel (common for North America) will cause a GFI breaker/outlet to trip.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I doubt ya Bill because the Honda's between 2KW and up to the EU7000i seamlessly work from the factory with any neutral bond issue.
    Certainly easy to test for though!

    How does the genset power heaters or large loads external to the 4024? measure AC under load with a true rms Voltmeter

    make sure the 4024 has its AC parameters as wide as possible.

    It sure looks like a bad genset from this far away. Nice troubleshooting!  Good Luck and at least the dealer is close by. Smart of you!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • jonr
    jonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018 #4
    Might be capacitor charging surge.  You could build a switch that would initially have a 5 ohm power resistor in-line - just manually switch it out (bypass it) after a few seconds.   Or measure peak current draw (at plug-in time)  to see if this is likely to help.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • ron_jeremy
    ron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Thx to all for the input -- it's greatly appreciated. What I can't wrap my head around is that a generator with half the rated output works just fine. This leads me to suspect that there's something wrong with this unit or possibly the auto-throttle (eco mode) circuitry is causing an issue (even though I have it turned off) simply because the other generators that all work fine do not have this type of circuitry.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • ron_jeremy
    ron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    edited August 2018 #7
    Hi @westbranch, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The plug going from the inverter to the generator looks like this:


  • ron_jeremy
    ron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    make sure the 4024 has its AC parameters as wide as possible.
    Hi Dave, I will take a look at these params -- thx for the idea.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder if the heater was tested on a 240v outlet, whereas I assume you're plugging into the 30a 120v outlet. If so, maybe a fault in the outlet that didn't turn up using a different outlet?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Riley
    Riley Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭
    Given the 4024 isn't even getting to the point of qualifying the generator - I can't help to think that this is a ground fault condition or some other wiring problem. 
    Off-grid: XW+6048 / 48V FLA battery bank (428 A/H (Rolls S-550 batteries)) / Conext MPPT 60 150 charge controller / SCP / Insight gateway / 12 - 260W solar panels / Kohler 12KW 12-RES propane genset
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Like maybe sticking the plug into the outlet shorts it?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018 #12
    Does not make sense if the 4024 qualifies with 2 other gensets in my mind. Add in the fact that the dealer changed out breakers.....
    Something fishy....
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • ron_jeremy
    ron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Estragon said:
    Like maybe sticking the plug into the outlet shorts it?
    The plug does look like it could be replaced -- it's a little worn out. What I cannot understand is why that generator would be affected but not the others?
  • ron_jeremy
    ron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭


    make sure the 4024 has its AC parameters as wide as possible.

    It sure looks like a bad genset from this far away. Nice troubleshooting!  Good Luck and at least the dealer is close by. Smart of you!
    Dave, the default lower & upper limits are 108V & 132V. I changed them to 102V & 138V but it did not make a difference.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    If you are gettinga red LED overload warning on the genset, that sounds like high surge current on the inverter.

    Did the breaker ever trip?

    The outback brand of inverter chargers (and some of the more expensive Schneider units?) seem do a soft start on charging.

    Other units just slam on the DC charger. That is not a nice load for a genset, and for inverter generators with quick acting electronic regulation, they may not ride through the high load current surge.

    The surge could also be charging the input capacitor for the charging circuit (if it has one) for a short quick surge too.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like that (surge) to me also Bill.  The Trace does not soft start BTW.
    Ron, does that model Trace allow the AC in frequency to be widened? I think it does.  What does the dealer say BTW?

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • jonr
    jonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018 #17
    Perhaps #1 isn't clear to some - it's the generator that is going into overload and switching itself off.    Try some type of soft-start added to the generator's load (ie, output).

    Could be that that generator has a quicker reacting (or faulty) overload detection circuit.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    > @ron_jeremy said:
    > Estragon said:
    >
    >
    > Like maybe sticking the plug into the outlet shorts it?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > The plug does look like it could be replaced -- it's a little worn out. What I cannot understand is why that generator would be affected but not the others?

    I was thinking there may be a defect in the generator receptacle or related wiring (not so much the plug), assuming you may be plugging into a different receptacle than the dealer did to test the heater.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • petertearai
    petertearai Solar Expert Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭
    will the dealer lend you another brand new one , at least that will eliminate the new gen as having a fault 
    2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . Mate 3. victron battery monitor . 24 volts  in 2 volt Shoto lead carbon extreme batterys. off grid  holiday home 
  • ron_jeremy
    ron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    edited August 2018 #20
    Thx all for your input. I've had enough of this generator & plan on talking to the dealer tomorrow to see what we can do to swap it for the smaller EF4500 that seems to work great.
  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭

    Any idea why this is happening?
    There are a few possibilities, but you'd need test equipment to figure them out.

    1) Startup surge.  You can measure this with a current probe and a scope.  If this is the problem a precharge resistor might help.

    2) GFI fault.  You can also measure this with a current probe; you put _both_ wires through the probe (so the differential currents cancel) and look for common mode current.  If it's too high it will trip the GFI, and that might be reported as a fault.

    3) Power factor.  You can measure this with a scope; you have to measure current with a current probe and voltage with a regular (voltage probe.  The current waveform should ideally be proportional to the voltage waveform but it rarely is.  If it is "peaky" it means that you are peak charging inside a rectifier circuit somewhere, and that may exceed the generator's maximum output capacity.  If it significantly "leads" or "lags" the voltage waveform then the generator may not be able to support those sorts of inductive or capacitive loads.  If this is the problem, capacitors (to compensate for inductive loads) can help.

    4) EMI.  It is rare but occasionally a load is so noisy that it causes problems for an inverter (or an inverter based generator.)  Again you would see this with a scope.  If there is a lot of high frequency noise on the voltage or current waveforms that can interfere with the inverter inside the generator.  If this is the case an EMI filter can help.
  • simmtron
    simmtron Solar Expert Posts: 87 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018 #22
    I have a Xantrex Freedom 458 12 volt inverter with 1OO amp charger, I use a Yamaha ef3OOOise generator to charge my 8
     batteries. I start it in Eco mode and after about 3O seconds the inverter /charger kicks in and the generator speeds up to charge. Never had any problem with the Eco mode. Has never overloaded. I am only using the Freedom for charging as I use a separate sine wave inverter.
  • ron_jeremy
    ron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Just wanted to update this thread. 

    No matter what parts were replaced on the EF6300iSDE, we could not get it to work. We returned it & brought home an EF4500iSE (just like our old unit) & it works perfectly.
  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
    Hi Ron,
    I also had a Yamaha 6300 for a relatively short period of time. Although the circumstances regarding its demise sound different, perhaps the thread about it will be of interest to you:
    See link below:

    I now have a Honda 2000

    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
  • lercs
    lercs Registered Users Posts: 1
    Sorry to bump an old thread but I had this same problem (instant overload when plugged in) turns out the 30 amp plug was wired backwards. The neutral and the hot were reversed. 

    When it was load tested everything worked fine (everything also worked fine on the 15 amp circuit, but I needed more than 15 amps) when hooked into a panel it immediately overloaded. 

    The difference being that when you hook up a single appliance it doesn't care which is hot and which is neutral, so load testers didn't catch the problem. When hooking into a panel, the neutral and hot do matter. 

    I took the panel off the front on the Genny and swapped the wires on the 30 amp plug and.now everything works as it should. Just wanted to post in case anyone is ever like me and has this problem. 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Thank you for the information... And the reminder that wiring errors can happen from the factory too (or in home wiring/extension cords/etc.)...

    Sounds like the Yamaha has N+G bonded in the genset--Flipped wiring to plug, and plugging into a panel with N+G bonding, and you have a dead short (H+N bonding at genset, N+G bonding at panel).

    This does bring up the issue of N+G bonding. Which, in North America, is typically done in the main electrical panel. And for larger genset, is done inside the genset.

    Generally, you want N+G bonding only done in one location... If done in two (ore more) places, you have shared current flowing in both Neutral and Ground wiring--That is not "allowed" by code.

    The secondary issue is N+G bonding in genset+main panel, this will trip the GFI (ground fault interrupter) outlet in the genset... In this case, the 30 amp outlet probably does not have GFI protection.

    And the miss-wired H/N connections should be confirmed with a volt meter (Hot to Ground and Neutral to ground checks).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭
    What you are calling " 60 second "handshake" (AC In Good 2) period ' is the inverter detecting AC input voltage and the time is the inverter slowly slewing it freq/phase alignment to match generator.  The actual time it takes depends on the initial phase/freq difference between AC gen and inverter phase/freq.  More initial freq difference will take longer for inverter to sync to generator.

    After inverter syncs to generator, the mechanical 'click' you hear is the transfer relay closing and paralleling the generator to inverter.

    This is the point where a common mistake is not having pre-set max inverter AC input current limit and/or maximum battery charging limit on inverter so the inverter AC input current draw does not exceed the capability of generator as soon as transfer relay closes.  Since the lower power generator works, I assume this not the problem.

    If you are correctly distinguishing between generator overload and generator GFI tripping, and generator is in fact overloading, the most likely issue is the ground-neutral bonding.

    Some inverter generators do not like having their neutral bonded to ground.  Most inverter-generators have a floating H-bridge AC output so if you measure from hot or neutral to generator case ground you will measure about 60vac (assuming a 120vac generator).  Most inverter-generators have optical isolation for their high voltage DC alternator output to their AC inverter so they will tolerate neutral-ground bonding.

    I use an isolation transformer to avoid ground bonding inverter-generator neutral on my Yamaha EF3000ie and provide 240vac split phase to my inverter from 120vac inverter-generator.

    You can check generator by itself, unloaded, to see if it works okay if you connect generator's neutral to generator's ground wire. Make sure you select generator neutral and not its hot line output. It will likely be okay with hot to ground instead of neutral to ground, by itself, but this will cause a problem when you plug into inverter input.  Assuming it does works with neutral-ground bonding, then you may have hot to ground bonded instead of neutral to ground connected.  If generator end s connected one way and inverter end has it connected other way (hot to ground on one end, likely generator end, & neutral to ground on inverter end) then you effectively have a short across generator when you connect generator to inverter.  For this situation the generator would immediately overload when plugged into inverter.

    If inverter-generator does not tolerate its neutral to be grounded it may show overload immediately when its neutral is connected to ground wire on plug.  Inverter-generators that do not tolerate neutral-ground bonding will usually say something in their manual like 'this generator is not intended to be used for directly wiring to house electrical panel'.

  • KenMorgan
    KenMorgan Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    I had the same issue initially with my old Makita G5500 genset.  simply swapped the wires to correct my mistake and many years later still no issues the makita does not fire up often enough to put any real where and tear on it, though I did change it out to propane last year to avoid fuel rot issues.  currently the diesal denyo is wired up in its place with no issues and the magnum AGS starts it once a month for exercise but I never really need it.
    30kw LiFePo4 battery bank, 18 JA solar 200 watt panels, 20 sharp 200 watt panels,  morningstar controller(s) and a magnum 4448 inverter with all the usual junk that goes with it. 
  • KenMorgan
    KenMorgan Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    BTW Ron Jeremy?????  one of you all got a secret life that we need to make fun of?
    30kw LiFePo4 battery bank, 18 JA solar 200 watt panels, 20 sharp 200 watt panels,  morningstar controller(s) and a magnum 4448 inverter with all the usual junk that goes with it.