Brand new Yamaha EF6300iSDE instant overload (with video)

ron_jeremyron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
We have a well used Yamaha EF4500iSE that we connect to our inverter (Trace Engineering SW4024) via 3-prong 120V 30A socket in order to charge the batteries (12 x 2V 960AH C/20) that power our off-grid house. The unit is approaching the 5000-hour mark so we picked up a brand new slightly more powerful EF6300 and planned on keeping the EF4500 as a spare.

When I connect a generator to the inverter there's a 60 second "handshake" (AC In Good 2) period where nothing happens & no load is put on the generator. After 60 seconds the inverter makes a mechanical click sound, then the 'bulk' charging process begins.

However, when I plug into the EF6300 it goes into overload within a split second of inserting the plug even though it has seen zero load, as seen in this video where I'm unplugging the EF4500 (under minor/medium load) and plugging in the EF6300:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UTxzLfkGwzW4Uocb8

I tried with the 'econo mode' in either the off or on position but it does not help.
I also tried the voltage select switch in either position (120V or 120/240V) but it also made no difference.

I hauled out our old Wheelhouse 5500 and it works just fine ("AC In Good 2" for  60 seconds then switchover to "Bulk"). Then I borrowed our neighbors much smaller 3500/3000W unit & it also goes thru the handshake process just fine ("AC In Good 2" for 60 seconds then switchover to "Bulk") as seen in this next video (though it naturally begins to really struggle during the initial charging phase):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ao159PmbRXqCwjHU9

I took the EF6300 back to the dealer & they noticed that it would not power a 4000W heater so they replaced the breakers. With the new breakers installed they said it powered the heater fine so I brought it home but it's doing the exact same thing.

Any idea why this is happening?

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,184 admin
    Is the breaker also a GFI (ground fault interrupter) breaker? It is possible that ground bonding the neutral inside the genset (common for larger gensets) and ground bonding the neutral in the home/main panel (common for North America) will cause a GFI breaker/outlet to trip.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I doubt ya Bill because the Honda's between 2KW and up to the EU7000i seamlessly work from the factory with any neutral bond issue.
    Certainly easy to test for though!

    How does the genset power heaters or large loads external to the 4024? measure AC under load with a true rms Voltmeter

    make sure the 4024 has its AC parameters as wide as possible.

    It sure looks like a bad genset from this far away. Nice troubleshooting!  Good Luck and at least the dealer is close by. Smart of you!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22 #4
    Might be capacitor charging surge.  You could build a switch that would initially have a 5 ohm power resistor in-line - just manually switch it out (bypass it) after a few seconds.   Or measure peak current draw (at plug-in time)  to see if this is likely to help.
  • ron_jeremyron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Thx to all for the input -- it's greatly appreciated. What I can't wrap my head around is that a generator with half the rated output works just fine. This leads me to suspect that there's something wrong with this unit or possibly the auto-throttle (eco mode) circuitry is causing an issue (even though I have it turned off) simply because the other generators that all work fine do not have this type of circuitry.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,114 ✭✭✭✭
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • ron_jeremyron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    edited August 22 #7
    Hi @westbranch, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The plug going from the inverter to the generator looks like this:


  • ron_jeremyron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    make sure the 4024 has its AC parameters as wide as possible.
    Hi Dave, I will take a look at these params -- thx for the idea.
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder if the heater was tested on a 240v outlet, whereas I assume you're plugging into the 30a 120v outlet. If so, maybe a fault in the outlet that didn't turn up using a different outlet?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • RileyRiley Registered Users Posts: 4
    Given the 4024 isn't even getting to the point of qualifying the generator - I can't help to think that this is a ground fault condition or some other wiring problem. 
    Off-grid: XW+6048 / 48V FLA battery bank (428 A/H (Rolls S-550 batteries)) / Conext MPPT 60 150 charge controller / SCP / Combox / 12 - 260 solar panels / Onan 5KW CCK propane genset
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Like maybe sticking the plug into the outlet shorts it?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22 #12
    Does not make sense if the 4024 qualifies with 2 other gensets in my mind. Add in the fact that the dealer changed out breakers.....
    Something fishy....
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • ron_jeremyron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Estragon said:
    Like maybe sticking the plug into the outlet shorts it?
    The plug does look like it could be replaced -- it's a little worn out. What I cannot understand is why that generator would be affected but not the others?
  • ron_jeremyron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭


    make sure the 4024 has its AC parameters as wide as possible.

    It sure looks like a bad genset from this far away. Nice troubleshooting!  Good Luck and at least the dealer is close by. Smart of you!
    Dave, the default lower & upper limits are 108V & 132V. I changed them to 102V & 138V but it did not make a difference.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,184 admin
    If you are gettinga red LED overload warning on the genset, that sounds like high surge current on the inverter.

    Did the breaker ever trip?

    The outback brand of inverter chargers (and some of the more expensive Schneider units?) seem do a soft start on charging.

    Other units just slam on the DC charger. That is not a nice load for a genset, and for inverter generators with quick acting electronic regulation, they may not ride through the high load current surge.

    The surge could also be charging the input capacitor for the charging circuit (if it has one) for a short quick surge too.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like that (surge) to me also Bill.  The Trace does not soft start BTW.
    Ron, does that model Trace allow the AC in frequency to be widened? I think it does.  What does the dealer say BTW?

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22 #17
    Perhaps #1 isn't clear to some - it's the generator that is going into overload and switching itself off.    Try some type of soft-start added to the generator's load (ie, output).

    Could be that that generator has a quicker reacting (or faulty) overload detection circuit.
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    > @ron_jeremy said:
    > Estragon said:
    >
    >
    > Like maybe sticking the plug into the outlet shorts it?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > The plug does look like it could be replaced -- it's a little worn out. What I cannot understand is why that generator would be affected but not the others?

    I was thinking there may be a defect in the generator receptacle or related wiring (not so much the plug), assuming you may be plugging into a different receptacle than the dealer did to test the heater.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • petertearaipetertearai Solar Expert Posts: 366 ✭✭✭
    will the dealer lend you another brand new one , at least that will eliminate the new gen as having a fault 
    2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . victron battery monitor . 24 volts 450 ah surette batterys . off grid  holiday home 
  • ron_jeremyron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    edited August 22 #20
    Thx all for your input. I've had enough of this generator & plan on talking to the dealer tomorrow to see what we can do to swap it for the smaller EF4500 that seems to work great.
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭✭

    Any idea why this is happening?
    There are a few possibilities, but you'd need test equipment to figure them out.

    1) Startup surge.  You can measure this with a current probe and a scope.  If this is the problem a precharge resistor might help.

    2) GFI fault.  You can also measure this with a current probe; you put _both_ wires through the probe (so the differential currents cancel) and look for common mode current.  If it's too high it will trip the GFI, and that might be reported as a fault.

    3) Power factor.  You can measure this with a scope; you have to measure current with a current probe and voltage with a regular (voltage probe.  The current waveform should ideally be proportional to the voltage waveform but it rarely is.  If it is "peaky" it means that you are peak charging inside a rectifier circuit somewhere, and that may exceed the generator's maximum output capacity.  If it significantly "leads" or "lags" the voltage waveform then the generator may not be able to support those sorts of inductive or capacitive loads.  If this is the problem, capacitors (to compensate for inductive loads) can help.

    4) EMI.  It is rare but occasionally a load is so noisy that it causes problems for an inverter (or an inverter based generator.)  Again you would see this with a scope.  If there is a lot of high frequency noise on the voltage or current waveforms that can interfere with the inverter inside the generator.  If this is the case an EMI filter can help.
  • simmtronsimmtron Solar Expert Posts: 87 ✭✭✭
    edited August 30 #22
    I have a Xantrex Freedom 458 12 volt inverter with 1OO amp charger, I use a Yamaha ef3OOOise generator to charge my 8
     batteries. I start it in Eco mode and after about 3O seconds the inverter /charger kicks in and the generator speeds up to charge. Never had any problem with the Eco mode. Has never overloaded. I am only using the Freedom for charging as I use a separate sine wave inverter.
  • ron_jeremyron_jeremy Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Just wanted to update this thread. 

    No matter what parts were replaced on the EF6300iSDE, we could not get it to work. We returned it & brought home an EF4500iSE (just like our old unit) & it works perfectly.
  • SurfpathSurfpath Solar Expert Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    Hi Ron,
    I also had a Yamaha 6300 for a relatively short period of time. Although the circumstances regarding its demise sound different, perhaps the thread about it will be of interest to you:
    See link below:

    I now have a Honda 2000

    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
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