Blue Ion batteries opinion please

WaterWheel · May 2018

Home Power Magazine did an article on Blue Ion batteries this month and they do look interesting. Using Ferrous Phosphate (LiFePO4) they should be good about resisting thermal runaway and with a claimed 8000 cycle life and a 15 year warranty they should last a lot of years.

I saw that Dave mentioned them once on this forum but no other references to Blue Ion here.

Opinions and thoughts please.

mike95490 · May 2018

It's hard for me to believe any Li battery is going to get 10yr, let alone 15yr. But the warranty paper likely has so many conditions it's impossible to actually stay within warranty. 8K shallow cycles maybe, but 8k full cycles, 90-10%, not likely either. It'd be great if it does work out.

softdown · May 2018

From wikipedia: "a protection system also needs to be implemented to ensure no cell can be discharged below a voltage of 2.5 V or severe damage will occur in most instances."

100% DOD cycle life (number of cycles to 80% of original capacity) = 2,000–7,000

Sony Fortelion: 74% capacity after 8,000 cycles with 100%DOD

Other notes - these use a lot of carbon, aluminum and a number of seemingly "high tech" manufacturing techniques.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

This battery chemistry is extremely promising and is already in large scale use. Light and hardy are nice attributes. Not using cobalt is fantastic.

The technology is far more important than any particular manufacturer such as Blue Ion.

Raj174 · May 2018

Found this, I'm sure it will up the price a bit.

PLEASE NOTE: Manufacturer's policy requires this product be installed by a certified dealer to be covered under their industry leading product warranty. Because of this policy, this product is not available to DIY clients. If you are in Washington state please contact us for more information. Outside Washington please contact Blue Planet Energy for a certified dealer near you.

Dave Angelini · May 2018

I can get them and they are expensive. About 1K$ per usable KWH. If you want warranty you would have to pay me to install them and since that is not my business model to go traveling there are better choices fro DIY. They are the old Sony LFP batteries like a tesla power wall. Sony sold their LFP business. The warranty is probably real and the cycles have been HALT tested. Their data to dealers is pretty solid. They have a new model soon that looks more industrial, which I like.

WaterWheel · May 2018

Dave, if they are similar to the old Sony LFP batteries what was the cycle expectancy of that type of battery? From what I've read LPF is one of the most stable long lasting chemistries but run at a lower voltage (3.2v) per cell.

I saw the required dealer install but I have a friend who is a solar installer an hour North of me I have read their warranty and it seems fairly straightforward. 10 years on everything and 15 years on battery performance. Expensive yes, but if you really can expect to get 8000 full cycles which they clearly state (two 50% discharges equals 1 cycle) then the batteries should last over 21 years.
https://blueplanetenergy.com/blue-ion2

If they do last over 20 years, especially in my hot climate then the high price works out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

Dave Angelini · May 2018

You really can't make that comparison ! The charging BMS, its algorithm, and how Sony optimized their design are very different or at the minimum not the same. This is the basis of why LFP and NMC are such fantastic batteries for offgrid. The Grid use is also great but I have little interest in it. It bores me.....New technologies are coming also. I have read that there is little chance that prices will change lower for at least 2 or 3 years.

On any battery and especially one that has electronics in it, the warranty is only as good as the company being there, or big enough to keep happy customers and not get negative publicity.

My LG's count (3) 30% discharges from 99% full as one cycle. They should last around 37 years at the rate we use them. Do I expect them to last that long? I live 60 minutes from Costco and can get a set of LA easily.

I just look out the window for power. It is pretty easy these days compared to what many of us did offgrid in the past. The efficiency and not worrying about Soc is just hard to describe. Talk about not needing a generator

softdown · May 2018

Lets hope the increasingly zealous government doesn't feel the need to regulate this technology. Market forces ought to make the price bearable in a few years.

Then again....why did US manufacturers phase out the Iron Edison battery? With todays cheap panels, that battery chemistry ought to be revisited. Something odd going on...as always.

mike95490 · May 2018

softdown said: .........Then again....why did US manufacturers phase out the Iron Edison battery? With todays cheap panels, that battery chemistry ought to be revisited. Something odd going on...as always.

Mr T. Edison called his battery an Alkaline Battery. Iron Edison is a re-branded Chinese battery.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/e4/5widsgvz7m3f.jpg

softdown · May 2018

mike95490 said:

softdown said: .........Then again....why did US manufacturers phase out the Iron Edison battery? With todays cheap panels, that battery chemistry ought to be revisited. Something odd going on...as always.

Mr T. Edison called his battery an Alkaline Battery. Iron Edison is a re-branded Chinese battery.

Called alkaline because they use alkalinity rather than acid. I wonder if they were nickel plated back then.

I still feel that these would make fantastic off grid batteries but they really should cost less than lead acid batteries if mass produced. Iron is much, much cheaper than lead. Nickel plating costs very little.

Dave Angelini · May 2018

Iron Edison is still in business and sells an LFP battery also. I talked with the sales guy and have a client with them. They do connect into the comms of Schneider and Outback. They are expensive also but Waterwheel should take a look at them also. I will post a picture here later. One of the drawbacks of the Blue ion is that they do not connect into your Schneider coms. It may not matter to you as you can use their monitor.

Since I monitor/commision alot of customer systems I need cloud monitoring. The sales rep told me to compare their chinese LFP with the chinese alkaline is like using a computer compared to a slide-rule. They are cheaper is about all I can see good about them compared to LFP. I do not think they will last as someone will screw up the maintenance over time and the LFP will just keep going, I think....

Also look at Discover by AES. They communicate into Schneider and Outback very soon.

softdown · May 2018

At this point in time, it still seems like lead acid makes sense for most people. Perhaps used lithium car batteries with ~50% life in them according to Horsefly.

Cobalt presents the threat of thermal runaway. A house fire is the worst thing possible.

Dave Angelini · May 2018

Used Li car batteries are mostly cobalt based and anyone who is concerned with fire would not be playing around with used batteries.
Tesla powerwalls and LG home batteries have quite bit of experience with NMC and I have never heard of house fires in their applications.
They are BMS designed to be as safe as possible. People are the biggest risk in my opinion.

So did you get tired of roofing in Florida?

softdown · May 2018

Dave Angelini said:

Used Li car batteries are mostly cobalt based and anyone who is concerned with fire would not be playing around with used batteries.
Tesla powerwalls and LG home batteries have quite bit of experience with NMC and I have never heard of house fires in their applications.
They are BMS designed to be as safe as possible. People are the biggest risk in my opinion.

So did you get tired of roofing in Florida?

The Florida roofing adventure is a very long story. The tenants were supposed to do it and never set foot on the roof to help me in my six days of hard labor. I am trying to get them out so I can move back in. He is threatening lawyers, code enforcement, and condemnation. Says he has a TV station on the way. He never paid a dime in rent so I'm not sure how he will fair with that. Claims I will "have to suck the shit out of his ass." Classy guy.

MrM1 · May 2018

softdown said:

He never paid a dime in rent so I'm not sure how he will fair with that. Claims I will "have to suck the shit out of his ass." Classy guy.

All the more reason I have never found renting property a desirable proposition. I know you used to could (and still can) make money at it. And my friend in Jax keeps telling me to join him in property fix-er-upping and renting instead of IRA's and 401ks, But I just don't want to have to deal with the likes of a "Classy Guy" like this. And unfortunately, people like this seem to be getting more and more common.

softdown · May 2018

MrM1 said:

softdown said:

He never paid a dime in rent so I'm not sure how he will fair with that. Claims I will "have to suck the shit out of his ass." Classy guy.

All the more reason I have never found renting property a desirable proposition. I know you used to could (and still can) make money at it. And my friend in Jax keeps telling me to join him in property fix-er-upping and renting instead of IRA's and 401ks, But I just don't want to have to deal with the likes of a "Classy Guy" like this. And unfortunately, people like this seem to be getting more and more common.

It can be a nerve wracking way to attempt to make money. It is pretty easy to lose money some years. Government services always side with the tenant. Two years there were seven people living in my two bedroom. They liked to toss polyester baby wipes and kitchen grease down the septic field line. So I paid for a lot of pump outs. Sometimes we even found the baby wipes and kitchen grease that caused the pump out fees.

Didn't matter. They got the Dept of Health after me and I paid about $8000 as a result. We are still getting clogs from baby wipes 1/2 year after they moved out.

You may learn to really not want to mingle with strangers. Yet many happy landlords report years of making vast sums with no troubles at all. Not sure if I believe them.

Some areas are notorious for shady people. Florida for example, a sunny state with shady people. Ten bad experiences for every good one it seems. The good ones seem to come from people who recently moved there. Could be "anecdotal" experience though.

Horsefly · May 2018

softdown said:

At this point in time, it still seems like lead acid makes sense for most people. Perhaps used lithium car batteries with ~50% life in them according to Horsefly.

Cobalt presents the threat of thermal runaway. A house fire is the worst thing possible.

"according to Horsefly"? Me? I don't think I've expressed an opinion on used lithium car batteries. Or maybe better said: I know nothing about them, so I hope I never expressed an opinion on them!

softdown · May 2018

Horsefly said:

softdown said:

At this point in time, it still seems like lead acid makes sense for most people. Perhaps used lithium car batteries with ~50% life in them according to Horsefly.

Cobalt presents the threat of thermal runaway. A house fire is the worst thing possible.

"according to Horsefly"? Me? I don't think I've expressed an opinion on used lithium car batteries. Or maybe better said: I know nothing about them, so I hope I never expressed an opinion on them!

Pretty sure you have referred to a widespread availability, either now or in the near future, of used Volt lithium batteries. Indicating that even at 50% life, they would have plenty of juice for many applications. Either that or I had a remarkably vivid dream.

EDIT: Did a search. Turns out that the word *volt* is pretty common here.

Dave Angelini · May 2018

I am pretty sure Horsefly has not expressed that but it does not matter. Let us keep the thread Waterwheel started on topic.

WaterWheel · May 2018

The point Dave made about the company being around to provide replacement BMS parts ect is something I hadn't considered. How many panel companies have we seen come and go? Plus I'd like to maintain the ability to monitor the batteries from my Combox in the living room.

Dave, what do you mean by LGs?    I know you're testing a Schneider battery set; is that what you mean by LGs?

Bottom line either from newbie battery mistakes (I thought I was fairly good at keeping the batteries maintained) or the excessive heat in the garage where the batteries are, or for whatever reason; my 32 month old battery SGs are down to about 1.247 average SG (post EQ spread runs about .012 so no bad cells) after a solid 4 hr absorb and EQ. Had numerous calls and emails with battery tech guys the last 18 months along with following the battery discussions here.    I figure by this fall or winter the batteries will average below 1.238 SG and ready for retirement.

Since the ground is sloped outside the garage I plan to have the next set of batteries outside the hot garage slightly sunk in the ground with the battery box mostly in shade. This should help but make monthly SG checks a little less comfortable.

I'd willing willing to conceder the expense of Lithium if the longer life (not to mention minimal maintance) made Lithiums an economically smart choice by lasting 20+ years.    But if Lithiums only last 12-15 years before either dying or the BMS system needs replacement then LAs in a somewhat cooler location may be the way to go.

Dave Angelini · May 2018

I wish I knew your name but forget LG as the current models are for hi voltage inverters.
I am done testing them! They are fantastic batteries but were marketed wrong in my opinion for 48V nominal.
Tesla has a similar battery but it is a challenge to use it offgrid. The others I mentioned are worth due diligence in research.
You can become a client and leave it to me....
There are no guarantees but death and taxes

softdown · May 2018

Horsefly said:

softdown said:

At this point in time, it still seems like lead acid makes sense for most people. Perhaps used lithium car batteries with ~50% life in them according to Horsefly.

Cobalt presents the threat of thermal runaway. A house fire is the worst thing possible.

"according to Horsefly"? Me? I don't think I've expressed an opinion on used lithium car batteries. Or maybe better said: I know nothing about them, so I hope I never expressed an opinion on them!

Must have been B Novak....sorry. For some reason, I somehow integrate your posts with BN. Enough on that anyway...

mcgivor · May 2018

@ Water Wheel said

Bottom line either from newbie battery mistakes (I thought I was fairly good at keeping the batteries maintained) or the excessive heat in the garage where the batteries are, or for whatever reason; my 32 month old battery SGs are down to about 1.247 average SG (post EQ spread runs about .012 so no bad cells) after a solid 4 hr absorb and EQ Had numerous calls and emails with battery tech guys the last 18 months along with following the battery discussions here I figure by this fall or winter the batteries will average below 1.238 SG and ready for retirement.

The phenomenon of of dropping SG is mainly due to undercharging which manifests over time, if the cells are all equal, plus or minus a few points SG, leaving them on charge, without loads for a period of time will likely bring the SG back to more acceptable levels. Naturally this is difficult if they are relied upon, my experience was a bank which displayed almost identical SG issues, once relieved of its discharge responsibility, rebounded to normal, they are assigned to light duty and have exceeded their life expectan and often transition to float, something that never happened during previous discharge cycles.

WaterWheel · May 2018

mcgivor said:

@ Water Wheel said

The phenomenon of of dropping SG is mainly due to undercharging which manifests over time, if the cells are all equal, plus or minus a few points SG, leaving them on charge, without loads for a period of time will likely bring the SG back to more acceptable levels. Naturally this is difficult if they are relied upon, my experience was a bank which displayed almost identical SG issues, once relieved of its discharge responsibility, rebounded to normal, they are assigned to light duty and have exceeded their life expectan and often transition to float, something that never happened during previous discharge cycles.

By chance the house has been empty the last 5 days with the absorb time cut in half to keep from overcharging the batteries with little load on them and average SG is up to 1.258. Adsorb was set to cut off at 2% of capacity. Normally I leave it set to cut off at 1.5% capacity but with no one home I changed it to help keep from cooking the batteries. Better SG so maybe I can make them last a little longer.

mcgivor · May 2018

Left longer with regular settings the SG would probably probably go even higher, but I've already derailed the topic so won't propagate my thoughts further, perhaps a new string would be better to discuss details.

Blue Ion batteries opinion please

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