Have i stuffed a new Battery

Checked my Fluid levels at midday and found one cell in one battery the level was just below top of the plates . The Batteries are Rolls s605 and only 8 months old and i find it very difficult to see what the lever actually is other than if its covers the plates , i have no idea how your supposed to tell when its 1/4 to 1/2 inch below the plastic piece inside , even using a light their is nothing to give any sense of depth of the level .
The thing is one cell was definitely to low on fluid so i topped it up with approximately a cup full , maybe a little bit more of distilled water and the other 2 cells in the same bank with a little less . Now the SG on the cell that was to low is no even raising the float in the hydrometer and thats taking in enough fluid to fill the glass tube almost to the top approximately 3 inches above the float .
Most of the day has been overcast so i only managed to get the voltage up to around 26.8 using the generator for about 3 hours and the SG on the low cell has not changed however the other two have gone from 1.14 to 1.15 , I check them every few days ad they are all around 1.23 before charging begins and 1.29 when it ends , today the remaining 9 cells in the 3 connected batteries are 1.215 -1.225 as i have been drawing off more today that has been coming in . The fluid in that particular cell was a bit cloudy immediately after i topped it up and i could see sediment floating on the surface , the fluid appears a bit clearer now with no or very little sediment on the surface , the other 2 cells remained clear .
The voltage each day are all fairly close .001 - .002 , tonight all 4 batteries are within .001 so no change there however they are all connected so im wondering if thats giving a higher reading on the batteries thats low on SG .
Have i stuffed the battery as everything i read indicates that allowing the fluid to fall below the top of the plates and the batteries will be a goner . .
The thing is one cell was definitely to low on fluid so i topped it up with approximately a cup full , maybe a little bit more of distilled water and the other 2 cells in the same bank with a little less . Now the SG on the cell that was to low is no even raising the float in the hydrometer and thats taking in enough fluid to fill the glass tube almost to the top approximately 3 inches above the float .
Most of the day has been overcast so i only managed to get the voltage up to around 26.8 using the generator for about 3 hours and the SG on the low cell has not changed however the other two have gone from 1.14 to 1.15 , I check them every few days ad they are all around 1.23 before charging begins and 1.29 when it ends , today the remaining 9 cells in the 3 connected batteries are 1.215 -1.225 as i have been drawing off more today that has been coming in . The fluid in that particular cell was a bit cloudy immediately after i topped it up and i could see sediment floating on the surface , the fluid appears a bit clearer now with no or very little sediment on the surface , the other 2 cells remained clear .
The voltage each day are all fairly close .001 - .002 , tonight all 4 batteries are within .001 so no change there however they are all connected so im wondering if thats giving a higher reading on the batteries thats low on SG .
Have i stuffed the battery as everything i read indicates that allowing the fluid to fall below the top of the plates and the batteries will be a goner . .
1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
Comments
If at all possible, I'd try to give the low battery a good charge on it's own.
I find using the rubber tube on my hydrometer somewhat helpful in estimating level above the plates by touching the top of the plates with the bottom of the tube and looking at how far up the tube gets wet. That and moving a penlight around to see how far the relection is from the underside of the case.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
Hi Ako,
The Surrette s-605s have a lot of lead inside each cell, so, technically, there is less room for electrolyte, compared to other L-16s with less Capabity. SO, it is crucial to fill to the required level, or a bit above.
If only just a few tenths of an inch of the plates were exposed, you are probably OK ... guessing. There is probably some capillary action, and gassing in charging should help to wet the upper plate area (perhaps).
It is quite common for shed plate material to be quite fine, easily circulated during Gassing, and will usually fall out of solution, a few hours after Gassing ends.
Agree with Estragon, use a small diameter flashlight (have always used a single AA battery powered LED light). Shine it directly into the vent well, move it around a bit. This should allow you to see the reflections of the vent tube in the electrolyte.
Some Surrettes (at least the 5000 series), appear to have a bit of a protrusion at the bottom of the vent well, which causes a deformation (meniscus) in the electrolyte as the fill level touches it. This is very convenient, as it tells one where to stop adding Distilled Water.
This function appears to be absent on the old S-530 bank, and may, or may not be present in your S-605s.
It is very important to situate your Flooded batteries in such a place, and such a level, that it is easy to see into batteries vent wells, and easy to refill them as needed (OH, yea, this IS obvious).
Keep at it, and you will develop a good technique.
Also, if you are seeing SG readings on an accurate Hydrometer, above about 1.275, it can indicate that the electrolyte is LOW. Of course in S-605s there is not a ton of electrolyte, so this effect is probably fairly small.
IMO, Good Luck, Vic
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
Put a mark on the tube of your hydrometer & align with top of the filler hole,
such that tip of the hydrometer extends 1/4" below the filler hole - now it works like an oil dipstick.
If the electrolyte is below the tip of hydrometer then the electrolyte is too low - add water.
It is very easy to see of the tip of the hydrometer goes under the surface of the electrolyte or not.
You may now have a cup of distilled water essentially "floating" on top of the denser electrolyte.
You need to "mix it up".
You can use your Hydrometer to pull-in and release the electrolyte several times - until SG is normal.
You may need to wait until you battery is bubbling to get the dense electrolyte
to rise up from the bottom and mix with the new cup of distilled water on top.
Low electrolyte = exposed plates will sulfate immediately!
Mix the electrolyte and then run an EQ to get the sulfate off of the previously exposed plates.
Do not let the sulfate crystals harder, otherwise that will be permanently lost capacity.
http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/5964-battery-sulfation
Battery Sulfation
Modified on: Tue, 14 Oct, 2014 at 8:22 PM
Studies have noted that nearly half of the L-16 battery capacity can be lost if the regulation voltage is too low and the time between finish-charges is too long.
In normal use, battery plates are getting sulfated all the time. When a battery is being discharged the lead active material on the plates will react with the sulfate from the electrolyte forming a lead sulfate on the plates. When there is no lead active material and or sulfate from the electrolyte remaining the battery then is completely discharged. After a battery reaches this state, it must be recharged. During recharge, the lead sulfate is reconverted into lead active material and the sulfate returned to the electrolyte.
When the sulfate is removed from the electrolyte the specific gravity is reduced and the reverse takes place when the sulfate is returned to the electrolyte. This is why the state of charge can be determined with the use of a hydrometer.
If a battery is left standing in a discharged condition the lead sulfate will become hard and have a high electrical resistance. This is what is normally called a sulfated battery. The lead sulfate may become so hard that normal recharging will not break it down. Most charging sources, engine alternators and battery chargers, are voltage regulated. Their charging current is controlled by the battery's state of charge. During charging, battery voltage rises until it meets the charger's regulated voltage, lowering the current output along the way.
When hard sulfate is present, the battery shows a false voltage, higher than it's true voltage, fooling the voltage regulator into thinking that the battery is fully charged. This causes the charger to prematurely lower it's current output, leaving the battery discharged. Charging at a higher than normal voltage and low current may be necessary to break down the hardened sulfate.
Hardened sulfate also forms in a battery that is constantly being cycled in the middle of its capacity range (somewhere between 80% charged and 80% discharged), and is never recharged to 100%. Over time, a portion of the plate's active materials turns into hard sulfate. If the battery is continually cycled in this manner, it will lose more and more of its capacity until it no longer has enough capacity to perform the task for which it was intended. An equalizing charge, applied routinely every three to four weeks, should prevent the sulfate from hardening.
In both cases, the fact that the battery "won't take a charge" is a result of improper charging procedures which allowed the sulfate to harden. In most instances, it is possible to salvage a battery with hardened sulfate. The battery should be charged from an outside source at 2.6 to 2.7 - volts per cell and a low current rate (approximately 5 Amps for small batteries and 10-Amps for larger ones) until the specific gravity of the electrolyte starts to rise. (This indicates that the sulfate is breaking down.) Be careful not to let the internal temperature of the battery rise above 125° F. If it does, turn the charger off and let the battery cool. Then, continue charging until each cell in the battery is brought up to full charge (nominal 1.265 specific gravity or higher).This time needed to complete this recharge depends on how long the battery has been discharged and how hard the sulfate has become.
The next time your batteries don't seem to be taking or holding a charge, check the specific gravity with a hydrometer. If all cells are low even after a long time on charge, chances are you've got some hardened sulfate that has accumulated on the plates. By following the instructions outlined above, the problem may be corrected.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
There are certainly more than one type of Lead Sulfate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_sulfate
At high concentration of sulfuric acid (>80%), lead hydrogensulfate, Pb(HSO4)2, forms.[4]
-Bill "above my pay grade" B.
The "charging current" changes the lead sulfate molecules into sulfuric acid.
When the plates are exposed to air ...
there is no charging current (electric field) to stop the sulfation process.
I took the suggestion of usinh a penlight and it was better however still difficult to see how much distilled water to add as there is no point of reference inside the batteries however as this will be a problem for some time and i have already come close to doing some costly damage through not having sufficient fluid i am going to try something later that i hope might make things easier .
I am going to use the clear outer biro tube and mark on it the Min/Max levels and by lowering it into the fluid and placing my thumb over the top and lifting it out i hope i will have an accurate indication to judge how much fluid to add , providing the fluid in the tube remains as it was when sitting on top of the plates , Would it be safe to try this or could the Biro tube do any damage by sitting directly on the top of the plates and mat ? . If that dosnt work then i had another idea . which would be to place a ruler or something plastic in the filing/vent hole with a mark on it to provide something to compare the level to by sight .
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
makes life a little easier.
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
Sorry to do this but have just encountered something strange on my TS60 now , seems to be just one of those weeks . The weather is dark and wet but my system did go from night to Bulk although about 45 minutes later than normal but after 40 minutes in Bulk it went into NIGHT then after an hour and a half i got a fault showing , R-Y-G , couldn't find anything obvious but i unplugged the solar array then the power to the TS60 and then reconnected the TS60 then the aray and correct light on for the voltage but still in NIGHT mode . Voltage coming off the Aray is shown as above the Batteries voltage but no current showing at all in fact the only current i have seen today was around 1/4 of an Amp for 10 minutes earlier when in BULK .
The TS60 and the batteries have been in around 7 months and in all that time the weather has been bright and sunny with cloudless sky's with only the occasional cloudy days for a few hours but those times were after the batteries were near changing from Bulk to Asorption do the voltages were up close to 29v so i have no previous knowledge to compare everything to but surely something has to be wrong to be in Night mode when the aray voltage is either just under or just over Bank sense wire voltage .
Is there anything i can do or try or information that will help to get to the bottom of the anomaly and if possible correct it . SG readings still either not raising the float or around 1.16 as theres not been the opportunity to give it a good enough charge to get then bubbling .
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
I am not questioning as your far more knowledgeable that me but i am puzzled by the comment about the array voltage being below battery voltage going into NIGHT mode as looking at my Loggers closely the sense voltage is lower for a considerable time before changing to NIGHT and a considerable time prior to changing to BULK .
I feel a bit better now as it showing it went into BULK again but with am Array voltage .06 below batteries sense and zero current coming in , 25 minutes later i have .03 amps increasing to .25 amps but still the Array remains lower then the sense wire . RTS is working ( 24c ) as is the sense wire and the voltage indication lights on the TS60 are functioning accurately .
Generator ran out of fuel 15 minutes ago so the voltage is dropping slowly as i would expect it to and so is the Array voltage it appears to be tracking the battery voltage but by around .10 beneath it , odd it was higher with the generator running although the -.10 was maintained .
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
With such a large charge i guess you wouldent have seen the same as me in that the battery
A larger charger would be ideal but i couldn't realy justify the cost as this weeks weather is extremely rare possible once a year and i think my generator is only 3kw so i dont know if it would run a larger charger .
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
Back to sunny clear skys today ,SG risen again and the difference between cells has gone from .45 down to .30 so going in the right direction ,, yesterday i had between 1.185 and 1.23 today i have between 1.24 and 1.27 , only problem is the voltage after charging has ended is still much to high , even after settling i have 25.35 with the RTS showing 31c which means the actual voltage is even higher so that aspect of these batteries hasn't changed , hoping now that after the additional water added the other day the SG reading will come down to the levels they should be 1.27 . Checked the voltages shown on the TS60 matched the voltage meters and Changed the TS60 to another new one i had to eliminate that as a possibility .
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
That voltage is not an indication of a problem, that is quite normal and not too high, it would indicate the battery is close to being fully charged especially if that voltage is maintained for 4 hours of no charging and no loads. Additionally the voltage is the voltage, being at 31°C doesn't mean it is higher than indicated.
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
My 4 x 6v Rolls S605s as i understand it should only have a fully charged voltage of 25.2 ( 2.1v per cell ) which is why i felt the voltages i am seeing are to high , the set points for all stages of charge are as Rolls stated in an email . I dont seem to be able to reduce the settled voltage and the thought that i could be overcharging them is my concern now , had hoped that with the addition of water it would sort the issue , it has as far as i can tell for the SG but even though that has not yet reached the 1.27 the voltages have exceeded the 25.2 .
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
The standing voltage after charging is just that, you wouldn't add or subtract, if it reads 25.2V that's what it is.
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
The attachment is taken from the Rolls manual , it shows a tube descending just over an inch down into the cell as a solid tube , that might just be artistic licence however on my S605s the tube is not solid , i have 3 projections , 2 of which are about 1/4 inch wide , the 3rd about an inch wide , the correct level is shown to be 1/4 to 1/2 below the bottom of that projection . If the projection were to have been the fluid level then it would make seeing the lever much easier , as its not shown to be then what purpose do they serve and why do you think Rolls would not simply show in their diagram a split to show the projections as they actually are unless possible some of their batteries do have a solid tube projection .
The second is using voltage as an indication of DOD just before charging begins as i dont always have time in the morning to take SG readings . The Rolls graph shows 4 curves for different C rates , which would be applicable as the batteries would have been resting for several hours and im not needing to know what could be drawn off them in a particular time which i have always understood the C number to represent .
I think i arrived at a voltage compensated by taking the voltage which for instance if it was 25.35 and the temperature was 10c higher than 25c the charts show to add .60 so i understood that t mean that if the temperature suddenly dropped with nothing going in or out of the batteries then the voltage reading would rise and show a reading of 25.95 ( 25.35 + .6 = 25.95 ) .
As i have always been concerned about the unusually high SG i was getting 1.29- 1.30 as well as the voltage of 25.35 - 25.4 knowing these batteries to be fully charged at 25.2 i read some articles on overcharged batteries and it gave swelling as an indication . Have looked at mine with a straight edge and they do in fact show a 1/10 of an inch bulge in the center of the cases . I know for sure that the highest the batteries have ever been taken to is 31.8v from the TS60 log and that was for a few seconds only and my inverts shut down , they shut down around a minute after the voltage exceeds 31.6 , so i had to adjust the equalization for the RTS controlled charge voltage to 31.5 , i also know from the close motoring i have done over the 8 months sines i bought them , the equalization was done for 2.5 hours as instructed by Rolls .
The only variable i have no control over is Absorption as the TS60 uses its own computation of needing a cumulative hour at 30% before stopping Absorption so is it possible thats where the problem lays , to much current being forced in . I am tempted to reduce the absorption time to 30% or less for 30 minutes or 50% for the hour however i dont feel im experienced enough to feel confident of either .
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
- Resting voltage shouldn't be adjusted for temperature in establishing an approximate state of charge. A fully charged lead acid battery with no loads or charging sources for several hours will be ~12.8v at 70°f or at 0°f. You don't compensate because with no charging or discharging, there is no chemical reaction to speak of going on (a tiny bit for self-discharge, but not enough to matter for this purpose).
- What does get adjusted is the voltage when charging. If the chemical reaction is going on with a warm battery, it will happen faster, so a lower voltage is used. If cold, the reaction happens slower, so a higher voltage is needed. Overcharging isn't normally caused by a too-long absorb. It's caused by charging at too high a voltage relative to the temperature of the battery. An EQ is in fact a controlled overcharge. AFAIK, bulging would be caused by overheating (or freezing a discharged battery), which you should be watching for when EQing. Personally, I wouldn't get too worked up about 1/10th of an inch in a tall battery.
A normal absorb cycle should take something like 2-3 hours or so at proper temp compensated voltage.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
The purpose of the slots in the tube are to allow gas to escape should the level reach the tube, if the tube were solid, the gas would force the electrolyte up the tube, resulting in spillage. Bare in mind the surface area of the electrolyte as a whole is much greater than that of the tube itself, hense the need for relief ports.
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,