Caribbean locations with reasonable property taxes and crime rates?

softdown · March 2017

Its a public road. The section that is shared by both counties usually gets no maintenance from either county. Pretty long section.

Two years is quite awhile to get my ducks in order. Figured out that a steel hulled sailboat is not in the cards.

The last county guy observed that this area is too far from the county seat to receive first class services. The new outfit doesn't care.

Dave Angelini · March 2017

Yes steel is for the Trumps. Not any real production steel boats less than 75 feet in steel. Dashew and Dashew wrote the classic "cruising encyclopedia" Might be a good one to have. This old boat by Casey is good also.

The boats are stacking up in PV this month for the pacific puddle jump out to the Marquesas in the south pacific. All ya need is a handheld vhf, a month at sea, and a decent interview.

softdown · March 2017

I'm liking "Liberte'" for the boats name. Sounds French or Canadian. I don't understand all the animosity towards Americans really. All we want to do is make friends right?

Today I was liking the idea of a larger, older boat that allowed carry of a very large number of tools. Since boats are always in need of work, I could earn some money here and there. Usually kind of enjoy fixing things. I was a cabinetmaker at one time. There aren't too many things I can't do with wood. I've also worked with fiberglass several times.....including making some very, very busty mannequins.

With, say 45' or so, I could store some serious maintenance materials. I don't see much need to use marinas and mooring.....so docking fees should not be a huge issue. I think it is safer being away from the frenzied crowds. Already jazzed about sailing 'round the world....in a slow and relaxed time.

Marc Kurth · March 2017

Dave Angelini said:

Yes steel is for the Trumps. Not any real production steel boats less than 75 feet in steel. Dashew and Dashew wrote the classic "cruising encyclopedia" Might be a good one to have. This old boat by Casey is good also.

The boats are stacking up in PV this month for the pacific puddle jump out to the Marquesas in the south pacific. All ya need is a handheld vhf, a month at sea, and a decent interview.

Well said.........

mike95490 · March 2017

softdown said:

.... I don't see much need to use marinas and mooring.....so docking fees should not be a huge issue. I think it is safer being away from the frenzied crowds..

Uh, don't forget about anchorage fees, dory service, and the peace of mind when big swells and winds are up, is your hook is holding? Lot's and lots of anchor chain and power winch to get it back up.

Dave Angelini · March 2017

softdown said:

With, say 45' or so, I could store some serious maintenance materials. I don't see much need to use marinas and mooring.....so docking fees should not be a huge issue. I think it is safer being away from the frenzied crowds. Already jazzed about sailing 'round the world....in a slow and relaxed time.

Better factor in with the slow and relaxed the small percentage of sheer terror. You would think that as you get more experience the terror would drop, it does but it is always there. Probably good that it does out on the ocean as long as your heart is strong

When it gets bad in the anchorage it is always safer to just head out to sea. It may not be better but it is safer.

There are still some excellent manual windlasses that can pull up 200 feet of chain and a 45lb CQR in a safe amount of time. I made plenty of money on electric windlasses, their systems, and there use.

softdown · March 2017

Dave Angelini said:

softdown said:

With, say 45' or so, I could store some serious maintenance materials. I don't see much need to use marinas and mooring.....so docking fees should not be a huge issue. I think it is safer being away from the frenzied crowds. Already jazzed about sailing 'round the world....in a slow and relaxed time.

Better factor in with the slow and relaxed the small percentage of sheer terror. You would think that as you get more experience the terror would drop, it does but it is always there. Probably good that it does out on the ocean as long as your heart is strong

When it gets bad in the anchorage it is always safer to just head out to sea. It may not be better but it is safer.

There are still some excellent manual windlasses that can pull up 200 feet of chain and a 45lb CQR in a safe amount of time. I made plenty of money on electric windlasses, their systems, and there use.

Yes....been thinking about that. I think it may be easier on my nerves if I had auto pilot and didn't watch any 30' waves. Having done a pretty wild stretch of Arkansas river whitewater in a little three man raft, I know how scary waves can be. Have not been scared out on the ocean but that is due to lack of time.

Lots of people abandon ship, even experienced sailors can get a bad case of the frights. Yet the sailboat hardly ever heads for the bottom. It winds up somewhere while the sheepish sailor, with luck, realizes he could have stayed with the boat.

Manual windlass for this guy. Good exercise and fewer things to malfunction. CQR has got to be some type of anchor. I'd go bigger...or at least have a very large one available. I can pick up and carry around 175 pound batteries, believe I can handle a windlass.

Dave Angelini said:

softdown said:

With, say 45' or so, I could store some serious maintenance materials. I don't see much need to use marinas and mooring.....so docking fees should not be a huge issue. I think it is safer being away from the frenzied crowds. Already jazzed about sailing 'round the world....in a slow and relaxed time.

Better factor in with the slow and relaxed the small percentage of sheer terror. You would think that as you get more experience the terror would drop, it does but it is always there. Probably good that it does out on the ocean as long as your heart is strong

When it gets bad in the anchorage it is always safer to just head out to sea. It may not be better but it is safer.

There are still some excellent manual windlasses that can pull up 200 feet of chain and a 45lb CQR in a safe amount of time. I made plenty of money on electric windlasses, their systems, and there use.

mcgivor · March 2017

@Dave Angelini mentioned sheer terror....Worked on a 60 foot seine boat for 2 seasons in the Price Rupert area British Columbia, went to Queen Charlotte island for a sockeye opening, left at night to return to the packers, a storm rolled in half way across Hecate strait with 80+ foot waves and howling winds, had to turn into the wind and ride the roller-coaster, or risk being swamped and sinking as the waves moved faster than the boat could go. This was an all night affair of going nowhere, thankfully the skipper was a seasoned veteran and knew exactly what to do, but was a night of sheer terror none the less, you have to respect the ocean.

Estragon · March 2017

@mcgivor

Yup, and it's nights like that when the gunk in the fuel tank gets stirred up and ends up clogging the filters. Broadside to big waves or near a lee shore as the engine sputters is not a happy place.

I'm always amazed watching sailboats motoring in heavy weather with sailcovers tied down and rigging all neatly stowed. Where I sail we don't get waves like that, but there's always a lee shore or a reef clise by, and squalls can hit fast and hard.

softdown · March 2017

We could be discussing scuba diving, fishing, bikinis, margaritas, tropical islands, exploration, food that is 10 times cheaper, the laid back atmosphere. No.....we talk about squalls,clogged filters, sputtering engines, howling winds, 80' waves, swamping, sinking, and terror.

Statistically speaking, sailing does quite well from a safety standpoint. Motoring does worse, probably due to heavier drinking while under way.

Still good to be fully aware of all possibilities. Wear socks with the sandals for birth control?

mcgivor · March 2017

Spent time in Utila Honduras, safe harbor behind the reef, scuba diving paradise, babe's in bikinis, cheap food, cheap beer, this is where Captain Morgan hung out, some of the best memories of the Caribbean are etched in my brain during the time I spent there, leave the socks and sandals behind, visit the Bucket of Blood bar and kick back with a Port Royal beer, watch the sunset, lights out at midnight when the diesel-powered generator is shut down, paddle back to your boat and rest your weary head, tomorrow is another day........feel better now?

mcgivor · March 2017

Another spot to visit is the Blue Hole in Belize, 200 feet deep, like being in space diving the hole, crystal clear water,walls surround you, look up and see the boat, then it's time to surface, remember the decompression stops on the way up.

jonr · March 2017

Sailing from Roatan to Guatemala in June - will have to check out Utila.

mcgivor · March 2017

jonr said:

Sailing from Roatan to Guatemala in June - will have to check out Utila.

Be sure to visit Lake Izabal on the Rio Dulse not far from Puerto Barrios Guatemala, beautiful jungle setting along the way.

Estragon · March 2017

@softdown - my point was if you're ready for the bad stuff you get to stay off the rocks and enjoy the good stuff.

@mcgivor - didn't take to scuba, but Belize is on the bucket list for snorkelling. I'll probably never have my own boat down there though, and no bareboating in Belize last I checked. Reef there is supposed to be amazing.

Dave Angelini · March 2017

it is all good down there! The actual fishing/spearing to me was better on the pacific side but... 95% sheer boredom is great also just have to have someone who is the skipper most all of the time. We rotated it and it was nice to be off the bridge so to speak.

I think that Estragon you see sailboats often motoring in heavy weather because many coastal cruisers do not set-up the boat for heavy weather and the engine is their way out. A good inner forestay storm sail and a reefed mizzen (ketch rig) was our rig for the nasties. The old guys called it jib and jigger.

If I had it again, I know I would add a furling main because of all the times we could have sailed more/faster at night and did not want to wake the spouse or get caught with too much up. Especially when the radar turned green with squalls. Yeow!
2 on 2 off watch is pretty important on multiple nights. Anybody can do one night of bad sleep but the long hauls take their toll.

A furling main would have really been the cats meow. Ships cat is a good thing also

softdown · March 2017

Dave Angelini said:

it is all good down there! The actual fishing/spearing to me was better on the pacific side but... 95% sheer boredom is great also just have to have someone who is the skipper most all of the time. We rotated it and it was nice to be off the bridge so to speak.

I think that Estragon you see sailboats often motoring in heavy weather because many coastal cruisers do not set-up the boat for heavy weather and the engine is their way out. A good inner forestay storm sail and a reefed mizzen (ketch rig) was our rig for the nasties. The old guys called it jib and jigger.

If I had it again, I know I would add a furling main because of all the times we could have sailed more/faster at night and did not want to wake the spouse or get caught with too much up. Especially when the radar turned green with squalls. Yeow!
2 on 2 off watch is pretty important on multiple nights. Anybody can do one night of bad sleep but the long hauls take their toll.

A furling main would have really been the cats meow. Ships cat is a good thing also

Not sure why it takes me a few days to follow recommendations. Finally ordered the books you recommended.

Going to be awhile before I get specific with boat sails. I've been blessed with two terrific dogs and a pup who shows more promise every week. They will severely limit many options but "It is not good for man to be alone?" Hence.....no ships cat.

Dave Angelini · March 2017

We swallowed the hook and so I hope the books are not dated now. We acquired them in the early 90's.
Cats are just easier because of size but many boats had dogs. We went long stretches without animals. That is really easy in some places of the world.

One of my clients keeps trying to get me out on a Windjammer cruise....

softdown · March 2017

Windjammer used to be big....using big, old schooners. Looked this morning, now they carry six passengers IIRC. Odd. Maybe the old schooners got worn out? I did two weeks in ~'84. Definitely prefer sailing to motor. Completely different atmosphere. They had great rum!

Maybe a storm caught them unprepared...

If I cruise for ten years, the current plan, I will need to sell almost all of my toys: snowmobile, atv, carlson boat, buggy, jeep, 3/4 ton truck, 1/2 ton truck, minivan, backhoe, forklift, 14' box truck, five trailers etc.

Then again, I could store a lot of stuff in my 24' enclosed car hauler and 14' box truck in the back yard of a secluded 1/2 acre rental unit in the Ft Myers, FL area. So many things to do....doesn't seem like two years is hardly enough.

What I really need is a secure barn to keep most of my stuff. Have a few lots in Arizona but my stuff would eventually get stolen unless it was on the property of a trusted soul.

Dave Angelini · March 2017

I think the names are different for Windjammer. They always had a bunch of different names back in the day. The current one my friend is referring to is similar to what you are saying. There are plenty of old Schooners, Ketchs, and Gaff rigs out there still as well as new small sailing ships. Sorry about the pipe thing here. Next post has the windjammer. Rum is almost always good down there.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/we/8csx3z69e9lm.png

softdown · March 2017

The original Windjammer Barefoot Cruises went bankrupt in 2007. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windjammer_Barefoot_Cruises

Included this clip about the Fantome because I am wondering what type of decision making went into sailing into a known hurricane after debarking all of the passengers. Edit: Found this https://www.amazon.com/Ship-Storm-Jim-Carrier/dp/007135526X - This event happened in 1998. By this time, the average people in the street trusted government services such as these to provide accurate forecasts. Those in the government looked for ways to politely say “these are estimates” while at the same time reassuring the general populace about agency credibility. This quite possibly led to a major reason for the Fantome being at exactly the wrong place at the wrong time. Captain Guyan March trusted the technology. Well....wish I could have been there to tell him not to trust the government.

Loss of s/v Fantome

In October 1998, Hurricane Mitch was responsible for the loss of the s/v Fantome, a four-masted schooner operated by Windjammer. All 31 crew members aboard perished; passengers and other crew members had earlier been offloaded in Belize. The story was recorded in the book The Ship and The Storm by Jim Carrier (ISBN 0-07-135526-X). The ship, which was sailing in the center of the hurricane, experienced up to 50-foot (15 m) waves and over 100 mph (160 km/h) winds, causing the Fantome to founder off the coast of Honduras.[5]

Assets were auctioned off in 2008. What a shame, their tall ships were really beautiful. The cruises were pure relaxation and fun. They did however suffer from organizational problems in my experience. I paid for two weeks and "got one". The Captain let me stay another week but the ambience was simply not the same. I mostly drank rum the second week.

Dave Angelini · March 2017

Astraea was up in the Rio Dulce when Mitch took out Fantome and she was a beauty. These guys below and a few others have the windjammer "spirit" still. I worked on a land based solar office for them in Tahiti on Rhiatea. Nice checks and dresses.....

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/4g/nejt7yuf9nqg.png

Dave Angelini · March 2017

There are no good decisions with hurricanes other than not being in the area and not getting yourself into the position of having to reason with them. There are few really nice bays in the Caribbean where you can anchor with everything you have. Up on the mountain,
a cinder block building, with a bar next door is where you roll the dice. Much better to be way below 10 degrees, Way!

softdown · March 2017

Lack of a large enough port was the key problem. Plus hurricane Mitch made an erratic and unexpected change....which hurricanes are well known for. Oddly, I feel saddened by the loss. Just ordered the book that tells the the story. The more I know about storms the better. Definitely prefer seaworthiness over speed at this time. I mean....whats the point in being in a hurry while sailing? Five knots is a great speed. With autopilot 24/7, surprising ground may still be covered. Autopilot tends to go tits up after awhile. I know some guys like to arm wrestle with the auto pilot, not very productive behavior. Need auto pilot that goes and goes and goes.

No use to get too specific on equipment now. The right boat, the right buy will dictate much of my equipment. I can add storm worthy sails and sturdy autopilot plus other essentials.

As memory serves, being below 10 degrees puts one off the coast of Brazil. Brazil is just as large as the continental USA, most of our maps lie to us. Africa dwarfs all but Asia.

Dave Angelini · March 2017

The best place below 10 is Panama. The 100's+ Hollandaise islands of Panama and Cartegnea Columbia are fabled cruising grounds and safe. "no one is killed in Cartegena" Kind of the rule for Columbians as that is where families go. Great ruins, gold, and Jewels everywhere.
Venazuela is a rat hole now but was great then.

Our A-pilot "trevor" got best equipment on board every time we voted .The 10 minute egg timer was up there also.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/xw/tds6vv955tgb.png

softdown · March 2017

The lowly egg timer was voted among the best equipment? One could easily spend tens of thousands on electronics that will likely die within 5-15 years. Have not even begun to figure out what I will need. EPIRB and navigation that tells me where I am and how deep the water is....necessities.

I have always liked the simple life best though I won't be using a sextant and the stars. The ancient explorers have always fascinated me.....Cook, Magellan, Cabot, Lief Ericson, Hudson, Drake............so many others. Too bad there are almost no new ecosystems to discover. Well....maybe if I had a well funded submarine capable of working the continental shelf's. I could do that.

Did you know that film maker Cameron held/holds(?) the record for the deepest exploration of the Marianas Trench? The outer window cracked under pressure, miraculously the inner window held. They would have been crushed like a snowflake under a bulldozer.

Lots of Americaner's in Panama. Someday either China or a consortium will build a bigger canal. China wants to employ bigger container ships. The USA wants to use bigger naval vessels of course. Then the rates will either go down or the older one will fall into disrepair.

Dave Angelini · March 2017

It turns out an egg timer will wake you up to scan the horizon and 10 minutes is about how long a ship going 20 knots might cross your position. I kept this secret from the crew for a few years and paid dearly when it was discovered. Might help you though....

I had heard about Cameron but deep water over 125' is something I never wanted to think about.

Look at the new Ford class carrier. Alot less personnel on board these days in the USN. Less to see you at night also....

softdown · March 2017

Commercial vessels are required to use....are they called transponders? There are alarms that will warn you of commercial vessels in the area.

With all the boats using auto-pilot, I am wondering about "radar" that audibly warns one of proximity to boats that are not using transponders.

Then I consider the sinking of the "state of the art" cruise ship Concordia on...........Friday the 13th in 2013(IIRC). Talk about piloting error. One would think we might have audible warnings for such things. Visually...the ship appeared to be far too close to the shoreline. Perhaps the Captain thought the multi-inch steel hull would be "impervious" to limestone outcroppings. The granite outcropping peeled off the steel like a sardine can.

I suspect the earths crust is, more or less, primarily made up of granite and basalt. Basalt is heavier so it is pushed under the granite when continental plates meet. The earth is slowly recycling itself as we inch ourselves towards Asia.

mcgivor · March 2017

softdown said:

Commercial vessels are required to use....are they called transponders? There are alarms that will warn you of commercial vessels in the area.

With all the boats using auto-pilot, I am wondering about "radar" that audibly warns one of proximity to boats that are not using transponders.

Then I consider the sinking of the "state of the art" cruise ship Concordia on...........Friday the 13th in 2013(IIRC). Talk about piloting error. One would think we might have audible warnings for such things. Visually...the ship appeared to be far too close to the shoreline. Perhaps the Captain thought the multi-inch steel hull would be "impervious" to limestone outcroppings. The granite outcropping peeled off the steel like a sardine can.

I suspect the earths crust is, more or less, primarily made up of granite and basalt. Basalt is heavier so it is pushed under the granite when continental plates meet. The earth is slowly recycling itself as we inch ourselves towards Asia.

Wasn't the Concordia incident a result of the Captain thinking with the wrong head?

mcgivor · March 2017

The Concordia incident was Friday 13 2012, but @softdown now you are bringing up the negative this time, remember the babe's in bikinis, tropical sunsets, cheap food and drinks and relaxation?

Caribbean locations with reasonable property taxes and crime rates?

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