Battery replacement query

mcgivor
mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
Planning for an expansion, a new and larger battery will be needed, so the search for 2 volt cells has led me to 2 sippliers, one carries Trojan and the other Hoppecke. Has anyone had any experience with the Hoppecke? Trojan seems to be quite well documented, sadly other well documented brands eg. Surrette and Concord are not available locally.

Most other suppliers carry monoblock 12V, up to 250Ah, there is of course golf cart batteries but my objective is to get away from the monoblocks. Attached is a pdf of the cells of interest, would appreciate any feedback, thanks.
1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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Comments

  • DConlyGuy
    DConlyGuy Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭
    #2
    since your going the 2 volt cell way  i would consider buying  a forklift battery as they are 2 volt cells
    600 watts of solar panels,Epever 30 mppt , 2 PWHR12500W4FR battery's in 24 volt setup
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    mcgivor said:
    Planning for an expansion, a new and larger battery will be needed, so the search for 2 volt cells has led me to 2 sippliers, one carries Trojan and the other Hoppecke. Has anyone had any experience with the Hoppecke? Trojan seems to be quite well documented, sadly other well documented brands eg. Surrette and Concord are not available locally.

    Most other suppliers carry monoblock 12V, up to 250Ah, there is of course golf cart batteries but my objective is to get away from the monoblocks. Attached is a pdf of the cells of interest, would appreciate any feedback, thanks.
    I have no experience with that battery, but their DOD/Cycle curves look good. 8,000 to 6,500 cycles at typical off grid DOD of 20% to 30%. Heck, even at 50%, they are pushing up toward 3,000. 

    I am not familiar with the DIN test standards, only the BCI test methods. It is possible that a difference in method can skew the numbers from a direct comparison, but their numbers are so large that I don't think it matters.
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016 #4
    Yes the specs are pretty impressive but they do come at a cost, got a quote of just under $2000 for a 24V 420Ah set. As far as the DIN testing I'm sure it is at par with BCI, being Germans and all, still waiting on a Trojan quote.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    I didn't mean that DIN might not be up to snuff. I just meant that different test methods can give different results.
    The BCI cycle testing for instance, is based on a very heavy load for a shorter duration - not the kind of discharge profile seen in a typical off grid system. If the DIN standards use a low discharge rate, the numbers would be different. I have noted lately that some people are posting cycle estimates based on a "modified BCI test" approach.

    The price of $2000 doesn't seem high to me for twelve (12) 420 ah, 2v batteries. Concorde and Fullriver do not offer 2v batteries that small.


    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Did a search on DIN testing came up with some results but you have to buy the information.The quote included other sizes up to 2000Ah at $9000 for 12×2v but I'm no where that capacity requirement....yet..lol
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016 #7
    mcgivor said:
    Yes the specs are pretty impressive but they do come at a cost, got a quote of just under $2000 for a 24V 420Ah set. As far as the DIN testing I'm sure it is at par with BCI, being Germans and all, still waiting on a Trojan quote.

    Was that a 6 hour or a 20 hour rate?

    I finally opened your link, looks like that's a 100 hour rate. To compare with other options, most use a 20 hour rate. might call them 360 ah batteries.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Attached  on the OP is the PDF, no 20 hour but 24 hour is the closest.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Nice that they're available in such a wide variety of sizes. Where do they ship from?

    I know the 20hr rate is sort of standard, but the way most of us use them the 100hr rate is probably realistic.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Estragon said:
    Nice that they're available in such a wide variety of sizes. Where do they ship from?

    I know the 20hr rate is sort of standard, but the way most of us use them the 100hr rate is probably realistic.

    Likely, but he's shopping for batteries, it would be good to compare apples to apples.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #11

    Photowhit said:
    Estragon said:
    Nice that they're available in such a wide variety of sizes. Where do they ship from?

    I know the 20hr rate is sort of standard, but the way most of us use them the 100hr rate is probably realistic.

    Likely, but he's shopping for batteries, it would be good to compare apples to apples.
    The batteries are shipped from Bangkok Thailand, and includes a technician for set up and commission. All the batteries available, here be it, Hoppecke, Fiamm, Fronius,Weida or Axitec all use the European Din testing method, only Trojan uses the BCI test, so it is a little hard to compare apples to apples. Surrette and Concord are options but they ship from Singapore and would rather not deal with importation issues. The Trojan supplier has not responded yet, over a week, all I need is a price from them.

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016 #12
    American companies lean on BCI simply because it is standard here. I wouldn't let any differences get in the way of choosing a battery that you like. If it takes more than a week to just get a response to a request for quotation - how long do you suppose that it will take to get customer support help if there is a problem?

    For what it's worth: Concorde Sun Xtender publishes their primary data based on the 24 hr rate along with 8,48, 72, 120 etc.  I suspect that their choice has to do with off grid folks who tend to think in terms if those time blocks instead of "1 day minus 4 hours"  for the BCI standard rate of 20 hours.

    Note that some manufacturers like East Penn Deka and MK brands publish the 100 hour rate as the battery capacity. You have go looking for the 20 hr rating.
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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