Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch · June 2014

Hi, I'm new here but have lurked in the background for a while doing research. I finally decided to register and start asking questions so here goes.

First a little background information: I'm planning a house build and have everything but electric figured out. The local utilities are estimating a $30,000 to $50,000 install (out of pocket) for our location. This puts our build on hold as that is just too much and leaves a little bit to be desired out of a company that will charge us monthly and have regular rate hikes. So I'm researching total off grid electric. The build is in Kansas and is on top of a hill with no tree obstructions and pretty much unlimited land to use = plenty of sun. I'm thinking solar panels, batteries, and a low RPM diesel generator.

So, here goes the questions:

Is there a kit available that I can purchase and install?

Is it cheaper to source all the parts and put it together myself?

What should I expect to pay either way with the first two questions?

I have a friend who does solar work and he estimated $30,000 to $40,000 total install, is this close to reasonable?

The bank says they will charge more interest on our mortgage due to lack of appraisals in the the area (nobody has done this locally). Is there any way around this?

Any general advice for a nube before jumping in with both feet?

Thanks!

AuricTech · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch wrote: »

Hi, I'm new here but have lurked in the background for a while doing research. I finally decided to register and start asking questions so here goes.

<<snip>>

Is there a kit available that I can purchase and install?

<<snip>>

Our host (Northern Arizona Wind and Sun) has several off-grid home kits available.

As for how much it will cost, that will depend on what power load you'll need your system to provide, so calculating that will need to be your first step. Since it's a new-build home, you should be able to design it to be much more energy-efficient than a home not built with off-grid solar power in mind.

solar_dave · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

You need to know what your consumption is going to be and how much you can conserve over your current situation. Off Grid solar is all about matching capacity with loads.

Catscratch · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Please help with usage requirements. We had planned on total electric as propane got a little crazy last winter. Now that we are thinking of off grid, propane might not be such a bad idea. What's your guy's opinion, how would you set iyour home up if you were starting from scratch? We want all the normal luxuries; ac, heat (supplemented with wood), refrigerator, tv, computer, microwave, etc. Our plans included a 20 kw transformer as our builder said it would cover our load sheet totals, but that probably is overkill to be on the safe side.

solar_dave · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch wrote: »

Please help with usage requirements. We had planned on total electric as propane got a little crazy last winter. Now that we are thinking of off grid, propane might not be such a bad idea. What's your guy's opinion, how would you set iyour home up if you were starting from scratch? We want all the normal luxuries; ac, heat (supplemented with wood), refrigerator, tv, computer, microwave, etc. Our plans included a 20 kw transformer as our builder said it would cover our load sheet totals, but that probably is overkill to be on the safe side.

I think that is a non-starter as we have no clue as to your requirements. What does your usage look like now? How much conservation could you get out of that usage? Also location is everything.

BB. · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

What you are being told is certainly in the realm of possibilities.

And the cost of bringing power to your property is close to the break even point of generating your own power.

It is a tough call.

Just to give you an idea... Around 3.3 kWH per day is (very roughly, 100 kWH per month) enough power for a refrigerator, lights, well pump, washing machine, laptop computer+network. No A/C, no electric kitchen, etc. Your family would have to be very conservative about electrical usage--But it can be done.

A 10 kWH per day system (300 kWH per monthly) is actually quite a large off grid power system. Any larger system gets seriously expensive.

You add everything together--And you are looking at around $1-$2+ per kWH expense for off grid power (some people do it for a bit less, homes that are occupied less than 9 months of the year may cost more).

That means 300 kWH per month is the equivalent of $300-$600 per month--Where you have prepaid the first ~10 years of power bills up front.

If you will be using a lot of power (say commercial shop/farming operation), you may figure out that paying for a line to your property is not the worst "investment". It may also increase the value of your property (and as you have seen, reduce your interest rates for some loans).

-Bill

Photowhit · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

If starting from scratch, Build all sorts of conservation into the home, thick well insulated walls, roof and floor, earth contact of some sort.

Off grid solar is a bit hands on, don't consider it unless you want to be involved. You become part of the system!

H2SO4_guy · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

I tried to do as much as possible on the cheap and have had some bad 'Investments' in used batteries and some that turned out very well. I went with used batteries and finally got some great ones. The main batteries I use now would have been around $80,000 new and I paid $1300 for them used, plus enough cores to make up the weight. I have 11,000 pounds of batteries that store about $6.50 worth of usable electricity. I use a Mitsubishi mini split heat pump that not only cools but heats as well. Over 9 months on the used batteries and have never been without power even when my neighbors have had outages. I do have 2 generators that never get used. My theory was to way over buy on panels that were mostly seconds and a great deal to boot. The larger goal is to run an off-grid aquaponics setup and I am working towards that.

Much of what I have was purchased from NAWS (The sponsor of this forum) and they are great to work with including good packing and quick shipping. I recommend them highly.

Hope you figure it out, and as cheap as panels are today, it is a good idea to plan for the future. We tend to use more electricity as time goes on. Also panels change, so it is often difficult to match them up later, and shipping is not much more for a pallet as a single.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

P.S. What part of Kansas are you in? I might not be too far away.

Catscratch · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Looked at some past bills and we probably average around 1200kwh/month (this is in an old and drafty house that hopefully doesn't compare to what we build). Gas heat and and hot water. We also have a shop that I have a beer fridge in and fire the welder up often. I figure if we go solar that I will power the shop with a generator so that will save some power.

I'm 1hr south of Wichita. Pretty similar climate as Missouri (assuming that is where you are). I might end up interested in where you shop for used parts such as batteries, lots to figure out before I get to that point though.

Thanks for the comments guys, keep them coming.

BB. · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Just to give you an idea:

1,200 kWH per month * 1/30 days = 40 kWH per day.
40,000 WH per day * 1/48 volt battery bank * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 2 days of storage * 1/0.50 max discharge = 3,922 AH 48 volt battery bank.

To charge such a battery bank 5% to 13% rate of charge--10% recommended minimum for off grid full time home:

3,922 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller * 0.10 rate of charge = 30,052 Watt array nominal

Using PV Watts, fixed array, tilted to 38 degrees from horizontal in Wichita Kansas:

Month    Solar Radiation
(kWh/m 2/day)
1      4.30     
2      4.88     
3      5.25     
4      5.80     
5      5.75     
6      6.01     
7      6.27     
8      6.33     
9      5.63     
10      5.36     
11      4.32     
12      3.68     
Year      5.30

Call it 4.88 hours of sun (toss bottom three months):

40,000 WH per day * 1/0.52 off grid derating * 1/4.88 hours of sun = 15,763 Watt array "break even"

So, you can price out the battery bank and solar array. 3-5 80 amp MPPT charge controllers, 6-10 kWatt of AC inverter, racking, wiring, panels, backup genset, fuel tanks plus fuel, etc...

-Bill

vtmaps · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

This indicates to me that money is a consideration:

Catscratch wrote: »

The local utilities are estimating a $30,000 to $50,000 install (out of pocket) for our location. This puts our build on hold as that is just too much

These indicate to me that money is NOT a consideration:

Catscratch wrote:

We want all the normal luxuries; ac, heat (supplemented with wood), refrigerator, tv, computer, microwave, etc.

BB. wrote: »

40,000 WH per day <snip> = 3,922 AH 48 volt battery bank.

Catscratch, something else to think about: propane exhaust. Of course, your propane water heater and furnace will be direct vented. But what about your kitchen cookstove? Your oven could use 30,000 BTU or more, and average stovetop burners are 7500 BTU each. That's a lot of exhaust and humidity. If you are building a very tight home you will need an air exchanger system.

--vtMaps

stephendv · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch wrote: »

Please help with usage requirements. We had planned on total electric as propane got a little crazy last winter. Now that we are thinking of off grid, propane might not be such a bad idea. What's your guy's opinion, how would you set iyour home up if you were starting from scratch? We want all the normal luxuries; ac, heat (supplemented with wood), refrigerator, tv, computer, microwave, etc. Our plans included a 20 kw transformer as our builder said it would cover our load sheet totals, but that probably is overkill to be on the safe side.

The size of the system and the cost are directly proportional to your loads. If you get your loads wrong by 50%, it usually means buying 50% more battery/panel/inverter than you need, or buying too little. So establishing your loads isn't something to gloss over or estimate with a finger in the air, best bet is to list every type of electrical device you will have, what's it's draw is and how long you'll use it. For bonus points, create 2 such spreadsheets, one for winter and one for summer. Once you know those loads you can then design the system you need.

From my perspective we have all of the "normal luxuries": AC, fridge freezer, 40inch lcd telly, washer/dryer, 2 mini-computers, 2 laptops, electric oven + microwave, deep well pump, bread machine, electric espresso machine, wifi routers up the wazoo... off-grid system set us back about $18k USD 3 years ago, but I'm in Spain so need less solar PV.

Adjust your expectation of "heat (supplemented with wood)" to: "wood heating, supplemented by electric when at all possible". It really helps if you can load shift your heavy items to favourable days, e.g. don't use the electric oven in winter unless it's sunny and batteries are charged.

If you're starting from a completely clean slate, then a diesel generator with heat recovery could be interesting. You can harvest the generator's heat from 2 sources: it's liquid cooling system and the exhaust. AFAIK, there are a few commercial systems like this, search for "Combined heat and power system", or if you're handy you can rig it up yourself. Bare in mind that you'll need to do quite a bit of research first as you don't want to cool the generator too much, likewise you should avoid cooling the exhaust too much since the gasses condense and corrode the exhaust.
Such a system can work really well, since the times you need heat (cold dark winter days) often coincide with when you need to supplement the solar electric with power. So having 1 device that does both is very handy.
Also, if the house isn't built yet then insulate, insulate and insulate. Have a look at passivhaus design using direct solar heating through south facing windows and massive insulation and draught proofing to significantly reduce heating load.

solar_dave · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch wrote: »

Looked at some past bills and we probably average around 1200kwh/month (this is in an old and drafty house that hopefully doesn't compare to what we build). Gas heat and and hot water. We also have a shop that I have a beer fridge in and fire the welder up often. I figure if we go solar that I will power the shop with a generator so that will save some power.

I'm 1hr south of Wichita. Pretty similar climate as Missouri (assuming that is where you are). I might end up interested in where you shop for used parts such as batteries, lots to figure out before I get to that point though.

Thanks for the comments guys, keep them coming.

Sounds like time to start looking at the costs to conserve, it is definitely cheaper to save a watt than to generate a watt.

So you have a rough estimate of consumption, do you use LED or CFL lighting? Are the appliances all energy star? And on and on ...

jcheil · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

And as others have mentioned, conservation is the key. And reduced consumption is a mindset that you will get into when you no longer have "unlimited" power. You could certainly try doing it now where you currently live. Don't leave things "on" all the time. CF or LED light bulbs everywhere.

A/C is always going to be the game-changer. Whereas now you may have the luxury of running your central air 24/7, with an off-grid system, unless you have a huge system, you may need to rethink cooling/heating. Mini-split AC systems where you can only have certain "rooms" being cooled at certain times. Propane for heating (water and home), propane stove/range (full off-grid range, not one with a glow-bar in the oven), and propane clothes dryer is a must in my opinion. Solar water heating works great for me down here in FL (with propane backup), might also work well for you although it would be a more complicated system because you have freeze potential.

If you "really" want to make it work, you can. And you will be surprised at how much energy you can save with conservation/conversion.
In my case, I average about 8-9kwh per day at my off-grid place in the "non-ac months" and about 14-15kwh in the "ac months". And I have everything that I had when on-grid. Computers, Internet, TV's, Pool, Washer/Dryer, etc. My system ran me about $13-$14k but I installed it myself and built a custom mounting rack (much cheaper than commercial ones which can sometimes cost more than the panels!) and my system it is just a tad on the low side of what I need assuming the great amount of sun we have here in FL. I only get below 80% SOC if we have a rainy day. 2 rainy days in a row and I have to fire up the generator to prevent getting below 50%. (more panels being added soon to help with that issue).

But as Bill mentioned, to get close to what you are using now you will easily spend $30k. The question is, do you want to spend $30k to have unlimited power from the electric company, and then get a bill every month, or do you want to spend it one-time and only have maintenance/replacement costs (batteries) every 5-10 years? Likely the TOTAL cost will be the same over your lifetime.

Catscratch · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Lots of great information and a lot to think about! We currently do nothing to conserve energy except burn as much wood as we can in the winter. We are serious enough about burning wood that our new floor plans are centered around a wood burning stove. I'm also a realist and know that at some point in my life I'm going to stop going out and cutting wood. AC is a must for us but it sure can be monitored, everything else can be worked with.

Thanks for posting numbers. I like numbers and it gives me a starting point to figure out where I need to go. Unfortunately money is a concern, if it wasn't then we would have just told the electric company to hook us up and paid the bill later. With that said I can do a lot work myself and am not worried about being tied to our system and it's upkeep. In fact I think it would be fun to be self sufficient. My wife might not think it's so fun...

jcheil · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch wrote: »

AC is a must for us but it sure can be monitored, everything else can be worked with.

Something to think about. In FL AC is pretty much a must due to the high humidity. However, my friend built a new house a few years ago and he designed it with very good insulation, a very tall roof and a 10', screened in, wrap around porch (under the same pitch as the main roof) around the entire house. Every room in the house has double-french doors and windows going out into this wrap-around screened porch.

The porch provides shade, allows all the doors and windows to be open when it is raining and gives an amazing breeze thru the entire house. Even in the hottest of July/Aug with temps in the upper 90's, the inside of his house never gets much above 78-80. I did this same thing to my place last weekend (still working on it), I simply added a 10' roof (alum pan roof) around the entire house. It was simple to install using the 1' alum roof "pans" so common here in FL. And immediately I saw a dramatic drop in temp inside the house. Last weekend when it was 95 outside, it was 78 inside. previously, it would be in the upper 80's and sometimes 90. Obviously it doesn't help with humidity, but the cooler temps make it tolerable.

So spend the money to design your house efficiently! You'll spend less doing that then buying additional solar.

Blackcherry04 · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

I recommend you try a PM to this forum member " Mangas " he has a system like what your going to end up with for several years. He can tell you about his system and the issues he has dealt with.

http://forum.solar-electric.com/member.php?127-Mangas

Blackcherry04 · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

jcheil wrote: »

Something to think about. In FL AC is pretty much a must due to the high humidity. However, my friend built a new house a few years ago and he designed it with very good insulation, a very tall roof and a 10', screened in, wrap around porch (under the same pitch as the main roof) around the entire house. Every room in the house has double-french doors and windows going out into this wrap-around screened porch.

The porch provides shade, allows all the doors and windows to be open when it is raining and gives an amazing breeze thru the entire house. Even in the hottest of July/Aug with temps in the upper 90's, the inside of his house never gets much above 78-80. I did this same thing to my place last weekend (still working on it), I simply added a 10' roof (alum pan roof) around the entire house. It was simple to install using the 1' alum roof "pans" so common here in FL. And immediately I saw a dramatic drop in temp inside the house. Last weekend when it was 95 outside, it was 78 inside. previously, it would be in the upper 80's and sometimes 90. Obviously it doesn't help with humidity, but the cooler temps make it tolerable.

So spend the money to design your house efficiently! You'll spend less doing that then buying additional solar.

Sounds like a cracker house without the passive flue exhaust in the middle. There a lot of designs 20's-50's before there was A/C that naturally cooled themselves. Back to the Future.

mike95490 · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch wrote: »

... We currently do nothing to conserve energy except burn as much wood as we can in the winter. We are serious enough about burning wood that our new floor plans are centered around a wood burning stove.

Seriously look into a masonry heater, instead of a wood stove. http://www.mha-net.org/ much less wood to cut, but may need a re-design for a open floor plan.

AC is a must for us but it sure can be monitored, everything else can be worked with. ...

Sunny summer days no problem, humid, cloudy days, no sun=no useable power.

Beware some of the clone low rpm diesels, as they are not always up to modern (1960's) standards, and become hobby projects. I have a backup for mine.

jcheil · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Sounds like a cracker house without the passive flue exhaust in the middle. There a lot of designs 20's-50's before there was A/C that naturally cooled themselves. Back to the Future.

Yeah

And I have seen these "whole house exhaust fans" that are centrally placed in the house (like in the ceiling of a closet somewhere) drawing air in from the windows/doors and exhausting it into the attic/outside. I am going to look into those and investigate the power consumption on them. A friend had one on his house 10 years ago and it really made a difference.

Blackcherry04 · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

jcheil wrote: »

Yeah And I have seen these "whole house exhaust fans" that are centrally placed in the house (like in the ceiling of a closet somewhere) drawing air in from the windows/doors and exhausting it into the attic/outside. I am going to look into those and investigate the power consumption on them. A friend had one on his house 10 years ago and it really made a difference.

My sister in law built one a few years ago that has a 6' x 6' in the central ceiling vent/flue that goes up above the attic to a cupola on the roof. All the rooms have transom vents in the walls at ceiling level so the air will be pulled into central location and out that vent/flue. I think hers is passive in function with out a fan, but it was designed from the ground up with new construction.

https://www.google.com/search?q=florida+cracker+house+designs&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

mike95490 · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

If the Grid is $50K, I'd go off grid. But if you can get them down to $30K, connect to it.

Catscratch · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

The masonry heater is an option as we have our wood burner placed in a central and open location. And we also have lots of porch roof designed around the house for shade. Most of our windows face the east too so we won't get a lot of afternoon heat from them either.

Looking at the numbers, if we have to go off grid it is going to be costly. Even the bank makes it difficult to do (1.5% higher interest). I'm confident I can save a ton doing things myself such as mounting hardware and such. Building and working on stuff is no problem. But dang, nobody make financing and red tape simple. Lots of crappie to shift though.

I'm meeting with the head office of the electric company today. Maybe I can get some real answers instead of playing phone tag and getting guestimates that have ranged from $24,000 to $80,000.

Thanks all for the ideas, facts, and suggestions.

Photowhit · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

I don't know how your electric company 'plays', but you might look into having the electric run done by an independent contractor. Of course that makes you responsible for the line to the connecting point. Also would be a moot point if the extended run is along a road and not on your property.

jcheil · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Photowhit wrote: »

I don't know how your electric company 'plays', but you might look into having the electric run done by an independent contractor. Of course that makes you responsible for the line to the connecting point. Also would be a moot point if the extended run is along a road and not on your property.

I was going to say this same thing. At least for the part that is on YOUR property. I know in my area I can get used telephone poles for free and could rent a backhoe with a bore drill on it for a weekend. A lot of the groves/farms that are 1000+ac here do that. You could save a ton of money. But as mentioned, now you are responsible for those poles (which is likely not a big deal anyways). Then you only have to pay for the part that the electric company has to do that is not on your land.

Also I wonder, if you pay $30k and then someone half-way between you and the original electric source builds and wants electric, do you get 1/2 your money back? or did you just pay for THEM to get electric for almost nothing?

Catscratch · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

So far they don't "play" well with others. They've told me they won't hang their equipment on other people's poles/work (l can get and set poles for next to nothing $$$). We are extending the end of their line and own all the property from where it currently ends to where it is going. If it ever goes past our place I doubt we get anything reimbursement.

I'm bringing a contractor with me today to talk with them. He has experience with electric companies and jumped at the opportunity to talk with them. Hope it goes well!

jcheil · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch wrote: »

So far they don't "play" well with others. They've told me they won't hang their equipment on other people's poles/work (l can get and set poles for next to nothing $$$). We are extending the end of their line and own all the property from where it currently ends to where it is going. If it ever goes past our place I doubt we get anything reimbursement.

I'm bringing a contractor with me today to talk with them. He has experience with electric companies and jumped at the opportunity to talk with them. Hope it goes well!

There is a simple solution to this. Build (with a permit) a "power house" at the very end of your property where their power poles end. That way you are just charged for the "normal" electrical connection charge to a regular home that is near power lines. Get a 200a or 320a service there put into the power house. Then run your own poles and wire on your property from the power house to your main house; get your own transformer at the power house and your main house and then you're good to go.

Could even just get a pre-made "ted's shed" as your powerhouse. And just hire an engineer to approve your power distribution plan and then the AHJ can't do anything about it nor could the power company.

jonr · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

I've seen the "extend the power yourself" model used successfully.

If I had to heat/cool a place with PV solar, I'd super insulate it (look up "Passive House" for some ideas) and use a hydronic heat pump that would normally only run when the sun was available. Heat or cold would be stored in a large water tank.

Catscratch · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

I'm curious about what the last two posts are talking about. Could you guys give me some more information or maybe a web-site that explains it a little better? I asked about a substation and they said they don't do that for residential, only oil and larger business.

As far as the meeting went, the guy didn't have many answers about cost but I did find out they would possibly release us to join the other power company (we are only about 100ft from the boundary between the two territories and the other company said about $7000 to run .5 mile and connect us). The discussion was good though and he said he would talk to the engineer assigned to us and I got the impression he would tell her to get us taken care of as cheap as possible. Hope I'm right... Still entertaining other options though and want to be researched as possible.

solar_dave · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

Catscratch wrote: »

I'm curious about what the last two posts are talking about. Could you guys give me some more information or maybe a web-site that explains it a little better? I asked about a substation and they said they don't do that for residential, only oil and larger business.

As far as the meeting went, the guy didn't have many answers about cost but I did find out they would possibly release us to join the other power company (we are only about 100ft from the boundary between the two territories and the other company said about $7000 to run .5 mile and connect us). The discussion was good though and he said he would talk to the engineer assigned to us and I got the impression he would tell her to get us taken care of as cheap as possible. Hope I'm right... Still entertaining other options though and want to be researched as possible.

They are suggesting you put a "power house" ( a smallish building) as close to the source of the power as possible and you make the run to the house.

zoneblue · June 2014

Re: Lots of questions about going off grid...

mike95490 wrote: »

If the Grid is $50K, I'd go off grid. But if you can get them down to $30K, connect to it.

Really this project is all about you, the owner. Sure you can design and build an off grid system that will supply 40kWh/day, winter, summer rain shine, plug and play, no questions asked, no compromises, no user involvement. Itll cost you about 100K. In which case the grid is clearly your better option.

OTOH if while you are moving to the sticks, you decide to not bring you with you (hard to do BTW), and you decide to take the opputunity to find out why you are in the top half of energy users, and take an interest in conservation and energy efficiency, are willing to be hands on in the maintenance and design, willing to spend several weeks or even months learning about the technology... then yes you can do it for quite a bit less than the 50K.

Like yourself, we were faced with a 23K connect bill, and opted to spend 10K on a 4.5kWh/day system. And like stephen, we have electric refridgeration, entertainment, laundry, computers for africa, lighting, and all the kitchen and light duty handyman tools a boy and girl need.

So which is to be, the red pill or the blue pill?

Lots of questions about going off grid...

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