Battery desulfator

System · July 2011

I was wondering if a Battery desulfator was a good thing to add to your battery bank. I see some people say they will make your batteries last 3 times as long. I also hear they are just a bunch of hype.... I am new at this and need some good facts, thanks in advance .... If they are a good thing to use on your battery bank can you tell me what brand might be good.:D

Cariboocoot · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

I believe the general consensus of opinion among the more knowledgeable members of the forum is that there is only anecdotal evidence and theory in their favour. Pretty hard to prove conclusively that they do or don't work. Most people do not use them, and yet manage to get some quite surprisingly long lifespans from even inexpensive batteries. This is done by being careful about charging and discharging.

Short form: save your money. :roll:

niel · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

if facts are what you want then properly charge the battery in the first place with proper maintenance and forget about a desulfator as it wouldn't be needed if it was done properly in the first place. i am of the contention they don't work and are not needed even if somebody came up with one that did. you can draw your own conclusions if you think that proper charging and maintenance isn't enough as it'll be your $ being spent.

waynefromnscanada · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

Methinks desulfators are a lot like those little ultrasonic deer whistles some people stick on their car. Those who use them swear by them, even thought there is no scientific proof they work, and indeed much evidence to suggest that deer don't even hear in the ultrasonic range anyway. On the other hand, I've never used them, and in over 40 years driving, have never hit a deer - - at least not so far :roll:
Likewise I've never used a desulfator, and my six L-16's, now nearing 10 years of age, are still operating perfectly, in spite of much abuse in their early years while I was learning. By the way, I'm still learning, and always will be

Photowhit · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

I guess this is as much 'evidence' as you'll get, I picked up a couple just 'cuz I could play with the mini solar panel for the price I paid ($30-40 for the pair, from my faulty memory)

Well I hooked them up, and didn't think much about them, but I'm on the 6th year on 4 - 6volt golf cart batteries that I completely abused the last 4 summers running an A/C, normally bringing them down to 50% and down to 20% from time to time. This is only for 6-8 weeks in the summer, but they still have quite good capacity as I've been busy and haven't ordered the fork lift battery I designed the system to charge.

FWIW - I would be more likely to buy one now than before...

I have done some reading both Home Power and Backwood Solar newsletter have run articles suggesting they work some what.

john p · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

Once upon a time in a land far away there was a little boy riding in a bus, As the bus was going along the boy would take a small piece of food from his bag and wrap it in paper then throw it out the window, After he did this a number of times the lady sitting next to him asked him why he was doing that.
he replied It stops wild lions attacking the bus.
The lady replied . There are no lions here
The little boy smiled and with the look of success on his face stated. Efective isnt it.:D

BB. · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

From late 2010:

PhilS wrote: »

I pulled the fuses on both Desulfators to 'turn them off', weekend before last.

As I mentioned above, when I put a new FM60 onto a 1020 watt bank (48V? three pairs of Mitsubishi MF170) that did have an MX60, I got consistently less output than the MX had given on that bank . I had moved the MX to a new set of panels with 780 watts (54V, I think, 3 Sun HS130 panels in a string, two strings). I did this to put the better cooling fan on the bigger solar bank since I'm pushing the limits for a 12V battery bank. (OK, Bill, "exceeding" the limits" :roll: )

I posted at the Outback forum, and Outback contacted me after reading my post. She asked if I had a Xantrex inverter (yes, SW2512MC) and she mentioned there were conflicts with the earlier Revs and some Xantrex inverters. Because I had an earlier Rev than the 2.0, Outback shipped me a new one with the Rev 2.0.

The problem was better but not perfect. Randomly, the MX would outperform the FM. Also randomly, at the end of the day, the total KWH from the MX would be more than the FM. All panels together in a line, ground mount, no shading or other things that should cause that. Some days the FM did better and some the MX did better. I just accepted it because... I felt I had to.

Since deactivating the Desulfators, the FM always has more KWH at the end of the day.

Watching them occasionally this last weekend, the FM always outperformed the MX. And it seemed that both did much better (no measurements, just years of experience looking at the readings... it was like both the FM and MX had slurped down a Red Bull!). At the peak of the day, the FM was cutting off at 60 - 61 amps, as it's s'posed to but I haven't seen that since the FM was installed. The MX was hitting 58 amps, which it never did on this new set of panels. (It didn't seem to make any difference on my 3rd MX60 tied to 780 watts of panels but at 12V.)

So my unscientific conclusion is that the two DeSulfators DID interfere with the Outback controllers. They will remain "off" and THANK YOU WisJim for asking the question!!

Phil

-Bill

waynefromnscanada · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

In my experience through life, I've come to realize that many people, when they decide to believe in something, whether it be a flat earth, or a desulfator, build on that belief, seeing what they want to see until it becomes an almost religious-like conviction, and when that happens, it's usually best to just walk away and leave them to their beliefs. Only problem is, that in walking away, others, seeing no opposing view, often get caught up in the same erroneous beliefs, accepting them as fact. Life is strange. :roll:

The Only Sarge · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

I am with Niel on this one. Why "fix" a problem when prevention of the problem in the first place is cheaper and easier.

Coming from the high performance car world.....there is a new "wonder gadget" daily.

Maybe the desulfator folks need to hire Carol Shelby and prop him up next to a battery bank

Frxddy · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

I'm with Neil & Sarge too. Why spend time & money fixing a problem that is avoidable in the first place?

The psychology: When you get poor information from a trusted source, you take it as fact.

The story: You are in a strange city and have to mail a letter to the IRS that NEEDS to be postmarked today. It is 10 minutes before the post office closes. You are told the post office is a five minute walk & off you go. Within a couple of minutes you can't find it. You come to an intersection that has a policeman directing traffic. You shout to him "Where's the post office?" He points and says "That way! On the left". You take off in that direction fast. The policeman suddenly realizes that he was turned around and pointed you in the wrong direction. He yells, but you do not hear. You keep going, faster, now running, time runs out. Why would a policeman lie? Well, he did not lie, but there you are, stuck with poor information from a trusted source.

The lessons: Take care of your batteries and mail your taxes early.

garlic · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

The Only Sarge wrote: »

I am with Niel on this one. Why "fix" a problem when prevention of the problem in the first place is cheaper and easier.

Coming from the high performance car world.....there is a new "wonder gadget" daily.

Maybe the desulfator folks need to hire Carol Shelby and prop him up next to a battery bank

Like those "motor overhaul" pellets in an old JcWhitney catalog.They came with a straw
to put one (or more,depending on the quantity of blue smoke) in each cylinder
through the spark plug hole.This they implied,would preclude you from having
to rebuild your engine.

niel · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

garlic wrote: »

Like those "motor overhaul" pellets in an old JcWhitney catalog.They came with a straw
to put one (or more,depending on the quantity of blue smoke) in each cylinder
through the spark plug hole.This they implied,would preclude you from having
to rebuild your engine.

actually, that one did work to some degree. that was in the days of leaded gasoline and they sold you small lead pellets that being soft would make their way over time into some of the tiny gaps that would've necessitated the rebuild and that was usually burning or blowing oil. i had an old oldsmobile cutless that i threw a few lead shavings into it and it improved a bit. of course there is no substitute for doing a rebuild for the lead only delayed the inevitable by a year for me (a few thousand miles) with it still not running right and it is not rebuildable with that lead in it making a partial temporary fix a permanent end, but i knew that when i did it.

garlic · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

"delayed the inevitable by a year for me"

If it bought you a years worth of use more from the dying beast,
then it's a good deal . They should've called them "temporary life
extension pellets for your terminal engine" with a picture of a
mortician on the package instead of the mechanic looking guy.

Back in my Navy days,when I was putting a new engine in my Chevy truck,
a salty old chief engineman had me put a teaspoon of borax scrubbing
powder in each cylinder to help set the rings faster.It worked ok I guess,
and it turned out to be a long lasting engine,but I thought he had had too
many beers when he first sugested it.

I dunno,I suppose the age of an idea is how one might sift through stuff
to determine weather it's a gimmick or a practical "secret" solution.

SCharles · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

I have a large bank of forklift batteries. At about the fifteen-year mark, I put a desulfator on them simply because someone gave me one. Five yr. later, I am using the same batteries to run our PV home, but I cannot say, at all, whether the desulfator has had any effect.

Trouble is, with something that "maybe" is "a little effective," [or not at all], it is not easy to discern any benefit or detriment unless one can run two identical battery banks under identical conditions with identical charging/use regimes. And then perform extensive tests along the way to compare the two banks. Even then, the experiment would have to be run on a number of comparison banks to account for the vicissitudes of individual batteries and cells anyway.

So, unless someone with no financial interest in whether they work sets up a long-term measurable experiment under the above conditions, we'll probably not know whether they are any use. If they are, the results are quite small and probably not worth spending any money.....

PhilS · July 2011

Re: Battery desulfator

shocked277 wrote: »

I was wondering if a Battery desulfator was a good thing to add to your battery bank. I see some people say they will make your batteries last 3 times as long. I also hear they are just a bunch of hype.... I am new at this and need some good facts, thanks in advance .... If they are a good thing to use on your battery bank can you tell me what brand might be good.:D

As you saw from my post that Bill quoted, I now have two desulfators that I'm not using. They can be yours for shipping costs. And if you doubt I'd do that, read back posts referring to "BZ Mppt 250". I'd rather give them to a member here than toss them in the garbage, which is darn near where I'm at with them. No complaints about them, they just "seem" to interfere with my Outback controllers and after more than a decade of use I can't say they helped, but I also can't say that they DIDN'T help... which is right in line with the other opinions you've received here.

Just PM me and we can work out details if you wanna try 'em. I'm cleaning out my garage and looked at them when loading the can Sunday, but decided to save them awhile longer. I also have a Heart Interface 2KW MSW inverter that weighs 82# I'd like to find a home for, but it's too heavy for UPS.

Phil

dad2520 · January 2013

Re: Battery desulfator

shocked277 wrote: »

I was wondering if a Battery desulfator was a good thing to add to your battery bank. I see some people say they will make your batteries last 3 times as long. I also hear they are just a bunch of hype.... I am new at this and need some good facts, thanks in advance .... If they are a good thing to use on your battery bank can you tell me what brand might be good.:D

Hi, while browsing the web I came across this forum, not what I was looking for but, after reading a few of the replies I had to give my three cents for what it's worth, the post is a little old but nonetheless, recently I purchased a battery desulfator to be more specific two weeks ago, as soon as I received it I installed it right away I have a very old Forklift battery as part of my solar battery bank, the age of the battery could be about ten years old or more, when I first got the battery I charge it up and tested it, it read about 95% charge this was good news, as time past the readings got lower and lower after researching the BLS12/24BW battery desulfator for about 2 years or so I decided to take a chance, it paid off, the battery is now full charging @ 100%. I hope this help anyone who is looking forward to buying one.
Good luck,
Dave

waynefromnscanada · January 2013

Re: Battery desulfator

Welcome to the forum Dave!
Very few of us here use defulfators. Many who have tried them find them of little or no value and a friend of mine had one run his batteries down, so I doubt you'll find any recommendations here, but time will tell. Those who sell them of course, can be very convincing, but then so were the snake oil salesmen in days of yore.

Cariboocoot · January 2013

Re: Battery desulfator

The reason being you can not tell if the desulfator was responsible for the improvement or if standard charging would achieve the same results. It for all practical purposes impossible to do a controlled experiment which would demonstrate the any potential benefits of the desulfator. Therefor only anecdotal evidence exists to support the claims, and that is highly subjective.

BB. · January 2013

Re: Battery desulfator

There is one issue that has been seen on at least a couple Outback F family MPPT charge controllers (owned by one person).

Desulfators work by sending "sharp edge" wave forms (typically very narrow spikes) into the battery bank to "vibrate" the crystals and help return the sulfur back into solution.

One at least one system, it turned out the "electrical noise" caused by the desulfator owned by the poster was enough to "confuse" the charge controllers and dramatically reduce their output (perhaps in the ~20% range or more--no firm numbers). A couple days of running with the desuflator turned off dramatically improved the charging current/profiles of both an FM and MX charge controller (as I recall).

From late 2010:

PhilS wrote: »

I pulled the fuses on both Desulfators to 'turn them off', weekend before last.

As I mentioned above, when I put a new FM60 onto a 1020 watt bank (48V? three pairs of Mitsubishi MF170) that did have an MX60, I got consistently less output than the MX had given on that bank . I had moved the MX to a new set of panels with 780 watts (54V, I think, 3 Sun HS130 panels in a string, two strings). I did this to put the better cooling fan on the bigger solar bank since I'm pushing the limits for a 12V battery bank. (OK, Bill, "exceeding" the limits" :roll: )

I posted at the Outback forum, and Outback contacted me after reading my post. She asked if I had a Xantrex inverter (yes, SW2512MC) and she mentioned there were conflicts with the earlier Revs and some Xantrex inverters. Because I had an earlier Rev than the 2.0, Outback shipped me a new one with the Rev 2.0.

The problem was better but not perfect. Randomly, the MX would outperform the FM. Also randomly, at the end of the day, the total KWH from the MX would be more than the FM. All panels together in a line, ground mount, no shading or other things that should cause that. Some days the FM did better and some the MX did better. I just accepted it because... I felt I had to.

Since deactivating the Desulfators, the FM always has more KWH at the end of the day.

Watching them occasionally this last weekend, the FM always outperformed the MX. And it seemed that both did much better (no measurements, just years of experience looking at the readings... it was like both the FM and MX had slurped down a Red Bull!). At the peak of the day, the FM was cutting off at 60 - 61 amps, as it's s'posed to but I haven't seen that since the FM was installed. The MX was hitting 58 amps, which it never did on this new set of panels. (It didn't seem to make any difference on my 3rd MX60 tied to 780 watts of panels but at 12V.)

So my unscientific conclusion is that the two DeSulfators DID interfere with the Outback controllers. They will remain "off" and THANK YOU WisJim for asking the question!!

Phil

Whether you like desulfators or not--Checking how they may affect connected devices (charge controllers, inverters, etc.) may be worth a couple days of experimentation to see if it makes a difference on your system.

-Bill

Photowhit · January 2013

Re: Battery desulfator

Hi Dad2520,

Lots of interesting things here, I'm not uncomfortable with battery desulfators, and have seen them being used in a solar shop that's been in business more than 30 years. But it wasn't a small unit that most think of, the link you provided is for a larger unit as well.

Describing a battery as 'fully charged' would have to do with a Specific Gravity(SG) reading of the electrolite, it would appear you are measuring voltage? If you have equalized a battery to it's maximum SG, then found the desulfator allowed you to have a higher SG reading that would be an improvment. I do believe there are some 'true' results out there that do exactly that! ...but on a near dead battery.

For what it's worth "...very old Forklift battery as part of my solar battery bank, the age of the battery could be about ten years..." brings up a couple points, 10 years is NOT old for a forklift battery in use for solar, it might be old if it was a forklift battery first then reporposed to use in solar.

If your using it "...as part of my battery bank..." you likely are inviting problems. Batteries charge, discharge and age together. If you have batteries of different ages being charged parallel to each other, likely you are undercharging one or the other and discharging one trying to bring the voltage up the 'best batteries' voltage/resistance.

ImpactBattery · October 2016

Hey there gang! I must say I am fascinated by this discussion. There are some interesting dynamics being shared and some cute stories that add little more than humor and obvious bias. I want to raise some questions for the community to consider and hopefully collectively can pseudo or quasi-scientifically make some headway on this topic. The general consensus I've taken away from the discussion thus far is that ALL desulfators are created equal and either don't have the desired effect or interfere with the charge controllers [Out Backs] ability to do its job.

Most if not all of my work with desulfators has been in the automotive and EV side of the market. Before reading this thread I would have said desulfators, specifically Pulsetech, BatteryMINDer and Battery Life Saver work great in any lead acid based battery system. I have personally salvaged, saved, resurrected hundreds of batteries customers or so called battery specialists promised were toast. I have witnessed extended use times with on-board desulfators attached. However, I have not had much direct experience with on-board desulfators in renewable energy setups. I think some fantastic concerns have been raised here and are worth exploring further with some quantifiable data (or as close to it as we can get).

Before I ask my questions allow me to indulge everyone by sharing one image that helps support my above statements concerning automotive and deep cycle type batteries. This should help explain why I find this discussion so fascinating and want to experiment further to uncover what may be different in solar systems. The photo below is the result of a test completed with a PulseTech product and a competitors charger. The evidence is overwhelming to suggest the technology has a significant impact.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/5x/uckg1bfn8gpq.jpg

So with that here are my questions/assertions:

1. I do not believe all desulfators are created equal. I think there are a lot of frauds out there. In this thread I was hard pressed to find any mention of what brand desulfator was utilized. I think knowing this piece of information is imperative. Does anyone recall what devices were used?

2. The interaction or interference with the charge controller is what really fascinates me. I know our military customers use the PulseTech desulfators on their vehicles and experience zero interference with their on-board computers and electronics. So what makes the charge controller react differently? Could it be as simple as the brand of desulfator? Voltage pulsing vs. frequency pulsing? Or is is it something else entirely?

If PhilS is still around I would love to see if he (or anyone else with an Out Back controller) would be willing to test a couple different desulfators to see how they interact with the controller.

3. Several of you mentioned the consequences of having different type or mixed aged batteries in your system. Knowing these subjective differences is important in this discussion. There were also those that keep referring to snake oil sales tactics, i am sure there are some morons out there, but I would say it is wrong to group the whole industry into one pot, especially with proven results as in the picture supplied herein. For those that want to know more, we have a whole blog section on this desulfation subject. I don't want to sound like I am tutting my own horn because that is not the objective. The article "ANSWER TO THE QUESTION: BATTERY DESULFATORS - DO THEY WORK?" posted back in February 2013 is still extremely popular.

4. I really want to dive into this solar environment and prove/debunk any theories. For that I will need some volunteers I can work with and who would be willing to post our findings alongside me. We will be willing to find and supply the test desulfators. Any takers? I think this could be valuable for everyone. i know I get inundated with companies wanting us to use their product, and the vast majority do not make it past the sale pitch.

BB. · October 2016

Thank you for the discussion. We don't allow advertising here, but are all for exchange of information.

So I am ok with continuing your postings here. Or, if it gets long, we can move it to your own thread.

-Bill "moderator" B.

PhilS · October 2016

The replies in this thread triggered an email, so I'm here today!

Everything with my system is working well and I no longer have the fast DSL of years past (I'm on hughesnet now ... which reminds me of my dialup in the 90's). So I limit my visits to finding answers to problems.

I have two MX60's and two FM60's. My battery bank (14 US2200 12V) is 2 1/2 years old and working better than any I've ever had. I mostly attribute that to increased maintenance. And I attribute THAT to being "retired" vs "business owner".

and I like "retired" much better!

If Impact Battery wants me to try a unit to see how the different Outbacks react, PM me with details. I have no desire to permanently install them but would agree to test the units with my Outbacks and then return them with the results.

Phil

aussie_wizzard · November 2016

I have disconnected my desulphator, im pretty sure it is effecting my pwm solar charge controller. Batteries started loosing capacity, and pwm controller behaved erratic after a few months. It is not the first controller that has failed after few months. Also mppt have failed. I thought it was the controllers that just kept failing. But I now think it is the pulses from desulphator that makes the charge controllers fail. So since I jave disconnected the desulphator battery capacity is back to increased performance. I dont know if desulphators work, all I do know is that they burn out pwm and mppt charge controllers after a few months.

jonr · November 2016

A desulphator has to create high voltage pulses. I'm not surprised that this confuses some devices and damages others.

mcgivor · November 2016

They should come with a disclaimer like medical drugs, may cause plate shredding, electrolyte dammage, premature controller failure, voltage spikes ask your forum if this device is right for you.

PNjunction · November 2016

I like most dismissed it out of hand. The charge has been levied that nobody has done any conclusive studies. Actually they have.

For those interested, take a look at Pulsetech, who published a report long before these plate pictures were taken. For the battery geeks among us, look for the FULL report from Prof Tadeusz Malinski. He's real, and still around. Look him up. The report is on the Pulsetech site, although back in the day all they had was the solargizer. The report, including the full one has been around for like 16 years.

Historically, Pulsetech was the first upon which everyone copied and twisted to avoid patent problems. Look for the patents of Carl E Gali and read carefully. While the main emphasis was desulfation, the *reason* was due to manipulating or micro-stirring of the interface layer. Copy cat's followed, and it is evidently clear that they don't know about the interface layer reduction, but explain their methods by a variety of goofy methods of attacking sulfation directly. They didn't understand.

Interestingly enough, Morningstar even got into the action. Look at Morningstar's "Why PWM" whitepaper, and in it you'll find references to desulfation, increased charge acceptance, and um the widely discredited "reflex / burp" discharge pulse. Benign, but note that Pulsetech does NOT use any reflex pulse.

Look at Morningstar's patent! The go into lengthy commentary on Carl Gali's patent in the prior-art section, and how it is not designed well, but do not seemingly dispute that pulse-charging does not provide benefit, only that Gali's method was designed wrong.

Food for thought.

PNjunction · November 2016

Where is Morningstar's report?

It has been about 16 years since Morningstar's "Why PWM" whitepaper was published. In it they state that tests are still ongoing with Sandia. Where is THEIR report, which should be at least as comprehensive as the one published by PulseTech (the "full" one that is) around the same time? (easier to find on the Xtreme Charge product-support page)

Since Morningstar claims that their pwm controllers not only do voltage regulation, but also desulphation, recovery of lost capacity, and so forth, then anyone using a Morningstar controller is ALREADY using a "desulfator" !

And, if they haven't changed their original waveform, they are also using burp/reflex pulses, although not directly named as such, but identified with the down pulses, and the reduction of the dreaded hydrogen bubble or the precursors to it, which was touted in the late 60's, but never got any conclusive proof either - benign at best. See the R/C Battery Clinic's article about burp-charging's history for more detail.

Since that time, many other manufacturers have utilized the pwm concept. In fact, even mppt controllers use pwm too for voltage regulation. Apparently, they work too, but probably are not infringing on Morningstar's basis of around 300hz or so being optimal. Not to mention the fact that my own Xtreme Charge maintenance charger seems to work, despite the claims of Morningstar's comments about Gali in their original patent.

Note too that I also use the stand-alone PP-12-L Pulsetech unit, which works not only on charge but ALSO discharge, something the Morningstar controllers obviously don't do. The Pulsetech waveform during DIScharge was also extensively documented in their original report.

I'm not bagging on Morningstar - I have several of their excellent controllers and they work well. But I think something is going on, but perhaps no manufacturer, other than Pulsetech, is willing to subject their device to the scrutiny of X-ray diffraction, electron microscopy, and other detailed facts like Pulsetech did to help settle the minds of the military, which was/is their main customer.

Battery desulfator

Comments

Categories