Should I get a Prius type vehicle?

softdown

They would do so much better if not for the head gaskets that are so prone to blowing. Plus this little issue:  "These engines are interference engines, meaning that if the timing belt breaks or stretches, the pistons will hit the valves, resulting in an engine teardown, and a likely rebuild."

Think their automatics are also failure prone - having something to do with the all wheel drive sophistication? 

Other than blown head gaskets, holed pistons and transmission failures - whats not to like? 

Owned by Fuji Heavy Industries - they should be able to get good head gaskets? All kinds of ads for cheap ones with blown head gaskets. My issue with that gamble is unknowns regarding the rest of the car when you can't drive it. I have too many maintenance challenges already.

icarus

The issue with the head gaskets is peculiar to boxer water cooled engines.  I know the VW vangon engines of very similar design suffered from the same issues.  My guess is that it is different rates of expansion/contraction between the jugs and the heads, as they have jugs not blocks.  Don’t take my opinion on the VCT to the bank,  It is my understanding that they (Subaru) has gotten the bugs worked out fromthe earlier editions.  YMMV.

Interesting side not...Toyota sells more Corollas in a year than Subaru sells cars.

T

softdown

icarus said:

The issue with the head gaskets is peculiar to boxer water cooled engines.  I know the VW vangon engines of very similar design suffered from the same issues.  My guess is that it is different rates of expansion/contraction between the jugs and the heads, as they have jugs not blocks.  Don’t take my opinion on the VCT to the bank,  It is my understanding that they (Subaru) has gotten the bugs worked out fromthe earlier editions.  YMMV.

Interesting side not...Toyota sells more Corollas in a year than Subaru sells cars.

T

It is very difficult to find a low price on a good Toyota. Their reputation is legendary. Which they earned. Perhaps time to consider a Rav4?

BB.

The Prius uses a CVT transmission (continuously variable transmission):

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/this-is-how-toyota-prius-gearbox-works-video-63918.html

But, if I understand correctly, it uses the three motors (gas engine, motor/gen1 attached to engine, and motor/gen2 attached to wheels) and a two speed planetary gear system. Mixing and matching energy from the three power sources, and the electrical alternator/motors 2&3 (by adjusting current flow and direction--they either drive their shafts, or the shafts drive them)... By adjusting the current, frequency, and direction of torque (phase), they can electronically emulate a CVT (they call it an eCVT?).

This is not the mechanical CVT that has two variable diameter pulleys and a belt... (I may be wrong--But I think this is correct for current Prius, if not all of them).

The read drive is an independent electric motor (and differential?). I would assume brake activated traction control to all four wheels (brake is activated on "spinning tire"). AWD Toyota systems are available on some other (hybrid?) models (or at least Prius and Rav4).

-Bill
 

softdown

Got a reply from offer on this Subaru Forester that is about 200 miles away. Anybody recognize a major issue with this? https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/denver-2003-subaru-forester-amazing/6968297727.html

It already has the repair work, according to ad, that Subaru's are noted for needing. The lift kit and wheel spacers also sets it apart. Subaru's have little stock ground clearance which makes them quite car like. 

softdown

Be especially interested in an opinion from icarus. He knows cars, especially Subaru's. 

Being Canadian, he is probably feeding some birds. Or chopping firewood. 

softdown

Photowhit said:

Well you don't have more solar than you need if you regularly fall below 50%.
Even the plug in Prius has less than a 5 kWh battery. 
Great cars for fuel economy, wandering open roads. Great fuel economy, few better. Also very dependable cars often found on top 10 cars for dependability.

Was waking up to ~50 volts. Or 12.5 volts/battery. 

icarus

softdown said:

Be especially interested in an opinion from icarus. He knows cars, especially Subaru's. 

Being Canadian, he is probably feeding some birds. Or chopping firewood. 

Don’t know much about Foresters, except I think they stand a bit higher.  The complaint that I hear about Foresters in particular, and Subarus in general is some people don’t like the seats.  I believe the Forester and Outback share the same drive train.  As for a lift kit/wheel spacers, I drive mine ALOT on very rough logging roads and have never had a clearance issue.  Personally,I wouldn’t alter the height or track simply because of adding stress to the drive line components.  One more thing about all Subarus, is you need to run four matched tires, size, wear, tread pattern, or you can buy your self some expensive difficulty.  It is a bitch when you blow one tire with 50% tread left. Consider buying 5 new ones once, rotating them all quite frequently, that way, when you blow one beyond repair, you don’t have to buy 3 new ones.  

Nope, not out feeding the birds or chopping firewood.  Doing some service work on a bunch of other peoples hardware.

Tony

softdown

icarus said:

softdown said:

Be especially interested in an opinion from icarus. He knows cars, especially Subaru's. 

Being Canadian, he is probably feeding some birds. Or chopping firewood. 

Don’t know much about Foresters, except I think they stand a bit higher.  The complaint that I hear about Foresters in particular, and Subarus in general is some people don’t like the seats.  I believe the Forester and Outback share the same drive train.  As for a lift kit/wheel spacers, I drive mine ALOT on very rough logging roads and have never had a clearance issue.  Personally,I wouldn’t alter the height or track simply because of adding stress to the drive line components.  One more thing about all Subarus, is you need to run four matched tires, size, wear, tread pattern, or you can buy your self some expensive difficulty.  It is a bitch when you blow one tire with 50% tread left. Consider buying 5 new ones once, rotating them all quite frequently, that way, when you blow one beyond repair, you don’t have to buy 3 new ones.  

Nope, not out feeding the birds or chopping firewood.  Doing some service work on a bunch of other peoples hardware.

Tony

Thanks for the nice input. Considering that a rear wheel is different than the others - there is cause for concern. I have asked for tire particulars before driving 450 miles - round trip. If he obliges and sends photos etc - might be on. 

Why would one wheel be different than the other three? 

icarus

I believe the AWD is activated by a viscous coupling system, so all 4 tires need to be the same diameter and aspect ratio.  I belive now that many AWD (as opposed to shiftable 4wd) vehicle use a similar system and suffer from the same issue.  From just one link:
https://www.souzastireservice.com/Tires-101/Tire-Matching-AWD-4WD?_ga=2.205974163.1642842947.1525820369-526214408.1525820369

”Subarus: Subarus have, to our knowledge, the tightest tolerance of any AWD system. Since we see so many, we can tell you what the tolerance is. It can be stated in two ways: The first is 2/32nds tread depth across all four tires. The problem with this is that actual tire dimensions can vary from brand to brand and even from model to model. Therefore the 2/32nds rule is only good if you have the exact same size, brand, and model tire. The other way to check is to measure the tire around the circumference and then the tolerance is 1/4". That was circumference, not diameter, so you have to have a flexible tape ruler and measure around the tread of the tire. Also, having air in the tire affects the circumference. Though the change due to having air in it is only about 1/8", it's pretty critical since the tolerance is only 1/4". Therefore, to get an accurate measurement, it's necessary to let the air out before you measure (since the prospective replacement probably won't be aired up). This second method allows you to check compatibility with any make or model of tire. When we were almost finished with this article, a Subaru came in that needed only one tire, so the picture shows us measuring the prospective replacement tire with our "Subaru Tool".

You may ask what the big deal is? Well, on the Subarus, if all four tires aren't matched within 1/4" around the circumference, you will break the transmission, not maybe or sometimes - it definitely happens. Granted it won't happen overnight, and the AWD on many Subarus can be disabled, but the transmissions can definitely get ruined and then they have to be repaired or replaced. Then the cost will be a lot more than the cost of..”

Tony

softdown

icarus said:

I believe the AWD is activated by a viscous coupling system, so all 4 tires need to be the same diameter and aspect ratio.  I belive now that many AWD (as opposed to shiftable 4wd) vehicle use a similar system and suffer from the same issue.  From just one link:
https://www.souzastireservice.com/Tires-101/Tire-Matching-AWD-4WD?_ga=2.205974163.1642842947.1525820369-526214408.1525820369

”Subarus: Subarus have, to our knowledge, the tightest tolerance of any AWD system. Since we see so many, we can tell you what the tolerance is. It can be stated in two ways: The first is 2/32nds tread depth across all four tires. The problem with this is that actual tire dimensions can vary from brand to brand and even from model to model. Therefore the 2/32nds rule is only good if you have the exact same size, brand, and model tire. The other way to check is to measure the tire around the circumference and then the tolerance is 1/4". That was circumference, not diameter, so you have to have a flexible tape ruler and measure around the tread of the tire. Also, having air in the tire affects the circumference. Though the change due to having air in it is only about 1/8", it's pretty critical since the tolerance is only 1/4". Therefore, to get an accurate measurement, it's necessary to let the air out before you measure (since the prospective replacement probably won't be aired up). This second method allows you to check compatibility with any make or model of tire. When we were almost finished with this article, a Subaru came in that needed only one tire, so the picture shows us measuring the prospective replacement tire with our "Subaru Tool".

You may ask what the big deal is? Well, on the Subarus, if all four tires aren't matched within 1/4" around the circumference, you will break the transmission, not maybe or sometimes - it definitely happens. Granted it won't happen overnight, and the AWD on many Subarus can be disabled, but the transmissions can definitely get ruined and then they have to be repaired or replaced. Then the cost will be a lot more than the cost of..”

Tony

This is one of those issues that the common consumer has no way of knowing. Since so few will instinctively have perfect tire sizing, I believe this is much of the reason that Subaru automatics and AWD systems have developed a rep for expensive failures. It is also a big reason that I seek a manual transmission.

Modern automatics have grown hideously expensive. There are probably few that can really do quality rebuilds with this much technology.  My "youtube guru/Scotty Kilmer" recommends factory rebuilt on modern engines and transmissions. Then again, a mechanic, like a shrink, only sees the stuff that has malfunctioned. 

Which has me wondering if I should buy a slightly used car. When I have done that the results have been unbelievable. Still running like brand new with well over 150,000 miles. Except for that manual transmission that lost maybe a drop/day before failing at 175,000. The original clutch still looked terrific. What killed it? The mechanic that asked me to drive it an additional ~60 miles after it became noisy. Some mechanics aren't as sharp as maybe they could be. The consumer? How would they know? 

EDIT - so I looked at 1-4 year old Subaru's. Are you kidding me? They using silver in the drive train or something? 

softdown

What are the odds of a perfectly maintained 15 year old Subaru anyway? Thinking I should probably drop the old Subaru thinking. I just can't see a large percentage exercising meticulous tire maintenance. 

icarus

Well...You pays your money...you take your chances!

T

softdown

icarus said:

Well...You pays your money...you take your chances!

T

An older Subaru is probably 10 times riskier than an old Toyota or Honda with manual transmission. I was pretty high on the AWD idea for awhile. They are very popular in Colorado where most guys think they are Bear Grylls. 

Got mostly rid of the tick with my 2006 Ford F-150. Joyous day. Then I floored it a couple times to test for posi-trac. It has posi-trac. The rear axle seems to have been replaced judging by the very new looking tire lugs. Yea - maybe I don't need a traction enhanced vehicle. But the tick came back. So it has a problem somewhere in the engine. Runs strong though and the gas mileage is fine. Expecting good gas mileage when the new air filter goes on tomorrow. The last filter was just filthy. 

Feel like I am bouncing around with this car search. 

Estragon

FWIW, my theory on used cars.  Over the last 10-15 yrs (at least) new car finance periods have been getting longer.  This makes it more likely a prospective used car seller is underwater on the original loan.  Sometimes they can get into a new car by rolling the deficit into the new car loan, but there are limits to that.

The upshot is these folks eventually have to keep their cars longer (creating a relative shortage in the used market), or get a longer dollar in the used market to get out from under.

BB.

The "old" 4 wheel drive systems may have limited slip or locking, or standard differential on the front and rear axles. And then you can either have no differential between front and rear shafts (old style 4WD system)... And if your front and rear tires were different diameters, your tires will build up a "twist" in the drive shafts and axles (i.e., front drive shaft turns 4,000 times per mile and the real turns 3,990x per mile (just pure made up numbers). If you are on dry blacktop, the tires literally have to "skid" a little to release drive line "twist" that has built up from different front and rear tires (your car is developing very high levels of torque between front and rear axles--And will get high rates of wear and eventual failure of drive line components). In the old 4WD systems--The answer was not to engage 4wd on dry roads... Only in wet/mud/sand/etc. where the torque difference between the front and rear tires never develops.

I think that modern full time (all) AWD systems (times past, modern, I don't know)--They have "acceptable" levels of "slip" between front and rear axles (i.e., there is a limited slip differential between the front and rear drive shafts).

The Prius (and RAV4) Hybrids cars, have a separate electric motor (and VFD controller) for the rear drive (roughly 7.1 HP as I recall)... So there is no twist between front and rear drive lines (because of different size tires). And the "limited" slip or traction control is done by modulating brake pressure (with the ABS pump?). So, the magic software only engages when one (or more) tires is spinning faster than the others. The TCS simply "pumps" the brake on the spinning wheel.

I have TCS on my Honda van, and it never "trips" when making tight turns (for example) when the inner and outer front wheels and turning at different speeds. The only time I have seen TCS operating is when one wheel is (example) on pavement and the other is on a pile of wets leaves.

-Bill

mcgivor

When in Canada I always bought second hand vehicles mainly because the listed price and actual price were significantly different once the tax, freight, PDI, battery levy, tire levy, air conditioning levy, documentation fee and whatever else are included. The TV advertisements scream out $19 999 but you wouldn't get much change from $27 000, misleading to say the least.

Here in Thailand the advertised price is what you pay, my 2018 Mitsubishi Triton turbo diesel 4 door pickup top of line 2WD cost $26 000, with a 5 year warranty including all lubricants, filters belts etcetera which have to be performed every 10 000Km or 6 months, if milage is less the service still has to be performed every 6 months to retain warranty, there is also road side assist during the warranty.

All registration, road tax, plate fees, a years comprehensive insurance with replacement value are included, floor mats both rubber and carpet, window tinting, bed liner, door handle garnish, window deflectors, sun shield and 20% off parts card for after warranty service and a gift of gold for paying cash, valued at $300, my wife was happy. A free car wash including under body  and detail is included with every service, a nice touch.

Strangely a 5 year old second hand Mitsubishi pickup with 190 000Km still  goes for ~$18 000 as is, so buying new here actually makes sense because if you subtract all the extra value the difference is only  $5000, but the vehicle is new, the used will accumulate that in repairs within 5 years given the lack of maintenance post warranty here, not to mention abuse, pickups here are often overloaded.

North America is vastly different, second hand bargains are to be found but one really has to know the actual value and having the ability to self repair is a distinct advantage Personally  imported from both the US and Japan to Canada but the real bargains were from Japan, I imported Toyota Land Cruisers with diesel engines and manual transmissions,  a lucrative business until others caught on and the market became saturated. Anyhow here is a picture of what I ended up with 

   

softdown

Patience is almost always a virtue when buying. Thinking I should wait until an "irresistible deal
 shows up.

Case in point - Last night I asked a Honda S2000 seller about the "$2000 clutch job" his ad stated was needed. I won't pay more than ~half price unless I can drive a car and verify certain things. Have not heard back.

Thing about the Honda S2000? Used prices are going up. How often can you buy and have a car kind of appreciate? Almost never. 

I youtubed the clutch job for the Honda S2000 - it is  difficult. I've never done a clutch because I don't like being square under a car while pushing and pulling. Paid for the one clutch I upgraded to on my Jeep. But my brother did it at a low price.

These days - I would do a normal clutch myself. But not a Honda S2000 where you have to do things like separate the frame from the car etc. My large hands are also less than ideal for small foreign sports cars. But I do enjoy small sports cars. Who doesn't? 

mcgivor

From experience Honda generally are not mechanic friendly, have to remove too many components to get at anything, Toyota are simple by design, both reliable but Toyota has the reputation of being boring, perhaps so but mechanic friendly.

My experience with Subaru is limited to front wheel drive,  converted a Justy from CVT to manual transmission in less than 8 hours. Removed/re installed the transmission including splitting the transmission to replace the input seal in less than 2 hours without prior experience, everything was so simple 8 bolts 3 roll pins and a few wiring connectors is all it took. Clearly the design team consulted the mechanics, there was even a rubber plug in the cross member to provide access to the drive shafts roll pins, beautiful design.

softdown

What year is the Justy?

mcgivor

Early 90's, it was one of the first CVT transmissions with a metal belt, the manual was built first so all bolt holes were in place, found a doner car at a wrecking yard, got everything needed for $100 to do the conversion.

The CVT belt was a beautiful piece of engineering, a thing to behold, but when I removed it it fell into a thousand pieces , it was such a dissapointment, its made up of thin segments with locating dimples and pins held together with bands, it was very anticlamatical to have it disolve in my hands.

softdown

AWD system? I don't think they have been easy to work on for quite some time. My brother was a mechanic for a long time - often noting how cars were becoming more difficult with each passing year. 

The key to being a successful mechanic now is being an electronics wizard. Cars used to do fine with very minimal electronics. They were fun back then. More torturous now unless one is into the complex electronics.

mcgivor

No, despite all the electronics the mechanical fundementals are still the same. What were once called mechanics are now refereed to as technicians, because they use a laptop or OBD device to read some codes, this doesn't make them mechanics. 

If they lack the basic mechanical  knowledge, they end up as component replacers, replacing everything until it works, at the expense of the customer,

Once went to pick up a friend who worked at a Suzuki dealership, two "technicians" were working on a Tracker, they had replaced everything, ECU, MAS, TPS but it still wouldn't cure the intermittent running conditions. It was a Friday and they were anxious to go drinking or whatever, I looked into the cab and saw a bunch of keys in the ignition switch, I broke their frustrations by telling them to replace the ignition switch because the weight of the keys had worn out the switch .They did so and the problem was solved, it was something that took me days to discover on a different vehicle and I gave it away for free.

This is something I give away for free to all, never use a bunch of keys in your ignition switch, use a single key.......you are welcome. 

softdown

My dad was a hospital machine "mtce man" with the requisite 60 keys. Never a problem with ignitions but he didn't drive today's plastic wonders. 

Estragon

Seems to me there was a thing a number of years ago about heavy key rings.  Cars dying suddenly on the highway with no airbag power etc, leading to a big recall.

softdown

Estragon said:

Seems to me there was a thing a number of years ago about heavy key rings.  Cars dying suddenly on the highway with no airbag power etc, leading to a big recall.

Sounds like a gift of modern technology. 

BB.

I remember the problem from 50+ years ago--My Dad's heavy keys and unreliable ignition switch.

There was another issue--When steering wheel locks where new... My cousin wanted to get into the (locked) glove box--Attempted to grab the keys from the steering lock, and locked the steering wheel on a curvy road--My uncle was quick enough to turn back on before the worst happened...

-Bill

softdown

Maybe a 4-6 year old Prius is the way to go. Should have lots of battery life left. They are supposed to last 10-15 years I think? 

An older Prius may be sold as with a "new battery". But I figure they got a "remanufactured battery" where they replaced a handful of bad cells. Those last about a year according to Scotty Kilmer. Then again, being a mechanic he only sees the problems. 

softdown

Somebody who knows the Prius may be able to evaluate this very low price for a 2012. "Fair condition" may be ideal for me. I'm far more interested in the mpg than the looks. This car is for ~100 hiking trips hauling three active dogs - every other day. I wanna live to my 90's. Exercise I must for a quality life. 

I can tow it and likely do much of the mechanical work. Reminds me of the second car I bought - and towed home. 

https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/parker-2012-black-toyota-prius-2/6973003610.html

softdown

Looking now at a private seller who charges sales tax. Wow - never seen that before. Guess it could be legit.