Should I get a Prius type vehicle?

BB.

Lift kit and larger profile tires for Prius:

https://priuschat.com/threads/tema-4x4-lift-kit.203371/

Can get 40 mm with lift kit (1.57inch with standard ride height of ~5.x inches), another poster has ~10-11 inches total of ground clearance.

Did NOT (forgot important word) seem to impact mileage very much (if at all).

Given that many cars come with traction control (Prius Gen 2 starting in 2004?)--Even front wheel drive cars can do pretty good (with antilock brakes, TCS comes mostly for free--brake applied to spinning wheel).

-Bill

softdown

Even if the field is narrowed to Honda and Toyota, there are so many models that searches could get onerous. Especially since I'm not picky about the years or model. I just want very good gas mileage and good dependability. A breakdown with three dogs and highways is asking for the "unthinkable". 

Funny thing is that my Samurai would have fit the bill before it got converted to a buggy/crawler with a top end of ~35mph with 38" tires. It will climb anything. About the only thing it is good at really.

BB.

I my post above, I forgot the word NOT affect gas mileage very much...

-Bill

softdown

I that all the time. 

softdown

Over 40 mpg is hybrid country. The odds of getting a good battery with an old hybrid are stacked against the buyer. A 50 mile range is half useless for mountain trips. 

Somewhat aghast at the high miles common with modern used cars. Many have over 200,000 miles. I would half expect a major engine or transmission failure in the near future. People are hanging unto their vehicles much longer than they used to. Repairs that used to be basic can be outrageous when modern engines are hard to work on. 

Currently favoring a manual transmission and four banger - 35 mpg would be fine. I kept finding 3 bangers and ~1 liter engines when looking at the best high gas mileage vehicles.

A lot of sellers are idiots. Was it always this bad? 

Wheelman55

I rented a Toyota econobox within the last year. It was a gasser. It gave me 40+mpg. The man traveling with me owns a Prius and he was greatly surprised. 

softdown

Wheelman55 said:

I rented a Toyota econobox within the last year. It was a gasser. It gave me 40+mpg. The man traveling with me owns a Prius and he was greatly surprised. 

Remember the model?

Pretty much got rid of most of the engine tick in the 2006 Ford F-150. Seafoam then oil change with Engine Restore.  Some products work. Fixing sick cars is rewarding in an interesting way. Just wish that modern cars were easier to work on. 

I recommend doing you own car work these days if possible. Seems that ethics have grown a bit more scarce. 

icarus

softdown said:

Over 40 mpg is hybrid country. The odds of getting a good battery with an old hybrid are stacked against the buyer. A 50 mile range is half useless for mountain trips. 

Somewhat aghast at the high miles common with modern used cars. Many have over 200,000 miles. I would half expect a major engine or transmission failure in the near future. People are hanging unto their vehicles much longer than they used to. Repairs that used to be basic can be outrageous when modern engines are hard to work on. 

Currently favoring a manual transmission and four banger - 35 mpg would be fine. I kept finding 3 bangers and ~1 liter engines when looking at the best high gas mileage vehicles.

A lot of sellers are idiots. Was it always this bad? 

I think you are a victim of you parent’s or grand parents generational thinking about the quality of cars.  Cars have gotten orders of magnitude more reliable, and long lived in the last 20+ years.  The old adage about cars behind dead or near dead at 100K just isn’t true (generally) especially in Toyota’s, Honda’s and Nissan’s.  (Beware Chrysler/GM/Ford for basic QC problems.)

It is also true that cars have gotten (in a relative sense) way more expensive, but factor in the savings of virtually never needing basic tune ups (Points/condensers/carb overhauls/disc brakes etc) they are remarkably reliable.  I will say however that the high tech aspect of cars makes them more problematic to repair.  Much of the move toward electronics has been driven by emission issues as well as fuel mileage goals.  I think the other thing that is true is that basic models are a much better bet than the high end models along the platform.  I would much rather have a Corolla or low end Camry than a Lexus which is built on the same platform.

All this said, I personally would stay away from any German Makes/Models.  While they are well built they are far to expensive to diagnose and repair. My good friend Mark, who runs a very good foreign car shop says he would starve if he only serviced Toyotas.  It is the BMW and Mercedes that pay the freight.  

I also disagree on your assertion of hybrid batteries.  I personally know of several Prius’s that have over 200K on them and still have very robust batteries.

Bottom line, buyer beware, take care of what you own and it will take care of you.

Tony

mike95490

On the highway, my wife and I get 40mpg @ 75mph in her +20 year old Honda CRX

Wheelman55

Take your pick. 40+ mpg. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g19746506/every-nonhybrid-car-that-scored-40-mpg-and-higher-in-our-real-world-highway-fuel-economy-test/?slide=1

softdown

icarus said:

softdown said:

Over 40 mpg is hybrid country. The odds of getting a good battery with an old hybrid are stacked against the buyer. A 50 mile range is half useless for mountain trips. 

Somewhat aghast at the high miles common with modern used cars. Many have over 200,000 miles. I would half expect a major engine or transmission failure in the near future. People are hanging unto their vehicles much longer than they used to. Repairs that used to be basic can be outrageous when modern engines are hard to work on. 

Currently favoring a manual transmission and four banger - 35 mpg would be fine. I kept finding 3 bangers and ~1 liter engines when looking at the best high gas mileage vehicles.

A lot of sellers are idiots. Was it always this bad? 

I think you are a victim of you parent’s or grand parents generational thinking about the quality of cars.  Cars have gotten orders of magnitude more reliable, and long lived in the last 20+ years.  The old adage about cars behind dead or near dead at 100K just isn’t true (generally) especially in Toyota’s, Honda’s and Nissan’s.  (Beware Chrysler/GM/Ford for basic QC problems.)

It is also true that cars have gotten (in a relative sense) way more expensive, but factor in the savings of virtually never needing basic tune ups (Points/condensers/carb overhauls/disc brakes etc) they are remarkably reliable.  I will say however that the high tech aspect of cars makes them more problematic to repair.  Much of the move toward electronics has been driven by emission issues as well as fuel mileage goals.  I think the other thing that is true is that basic models are a much better bet than the high end models along the platform.  I would much rather have a Corolla or low end Camry than a Lexus which is built on the same platform.

All this said, I personally would stay away from any German Makes/Models.  While they are well built they are far to expensive to diagnose and repair. My good friend Mark, who runs a very good foreign car shop says he would starve if he only serviced Toyotas.  It is the BMW and Mercedes that pay the freight.  

I also disagree on your assertion of hybrid batteries.  I personally know of several Prius’s that have over 200K on them and still have very robust batteries.

Bottom line, buyer beware, take care of what you own and it will take care of you.

Tony

Are you serious? Or trolling? I've driven over a million miles. Have rebuilt engines. Own seven cars and trucks. This morning I did brakes, shocks, tire rotation, front end work, battery work, EGR solenoid, and oil/filter change. Bill maintains a polite board so I'll my guess to myself. 

"Cars have gotten orders of magnitude more reliable, and long lived in the last 20+ years."

softdown

Wheelman55 said:

Take your pick. 40+ mpg. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g19746506/every-nonhybrid-car-that-scored-40-mpg-and-higher-in-our-real-world-highway-fuel-economy-test/?slide=1

Thanks, very interesting list. It would be interesting to see mechanics rate the cost or maintaining several of those cars. These items caught my eye:
Jaguar!
BMW!
Turbo - Diesel!
8 speed transmissions!
Dual clutch! - why not two brake pedals? 

Buying a new car in order to save money on gas? Right after I go to Vegas to make some money. 

I can get a good, reliable economy car for about $3000. I'm shooting for $2000, or less, since I can accept significant body/paint damage.

Got to say that some people have been popping dumb pills. Some examples of "questionable" sales points:
One Owner - on a 2017?
Low mileage - 132,000 is low?
Got another motor for it - you just need to pop it in.
Front bumper - been holding it together with duct tape.
One guy advertised five photos of his tires for sale - all while missing the tread. 
Just needs a rear window that is broken out - thinking that replacing that would seriously help the value. 
Wish I could remember some other eyeball burners. 

Marc Kurth

Contrary to poplar opinion, I buy low mileage used rental cars with 20K to 30K miles. The trick is to NOT buy high performance models that people abused.

Two of my daughters do the same. We have been buying American made cars,trucks and SUV's, in 2WD, 4WD and AWD and they have always run out to 225K to 250K miles, then we sell them before they break. I could bore you with a list of GM, Ford, Ram stories, but they all go long mileage with no serious problems.

I am currently driving a 2016 Ram with the 390HP V8 from Enterprise that I bought with 22K miles on it, now at 62K.

My wife still loves her 2011 Chevy Traverse that we bought in 2013 with 23K miles, now at 183K and no repairs so far.

Marc

icarus

Softdown....

Certainly not trolling!  As for Bill “running a polite board”, indeed he does.  I have been a member here since nearly the begining, (though dormant for a while while life got in the way!) and indeed I was a mod on this board for a few years.

You are free to disagree with me (or anyone) but respect is the word!  I stand by my comment, “cars have gotten orders of magnitude more reliable in the last 20+ years”.  No more setting valves on a regular basis, as I said, no more points and condensers, no more carb/choke issues, no zeros to grease, no U-joints to change,   Brakes no longer need adjusting, lifetime coolant, 100K+ interval SERP belts instead of a myriad of other belts.  You may have rebuilt engines (as have I many times) but few people do it now, simply because they run so long with proper modern oils/coolants and probably most importantly fuel mixtures and proper thermostating. 

 Now, I will grant you that repair has become more challenging, for two reasons.  First, they have a lot of stuff stuffed into engine compartments (and under dashes too!) so that access, especially without a lift is problematic.  The second is the plethora of electronics that make diagnosis without the proper code tools difficult at best.  Even the best shops, with the best code tools have to jump through major hoop to make an accurate CEL diagnosis, though a good shop that works on specific vehicles tends to know the known quirks.  (Mercedes and BMW are the worst for not dealer shop access to data)

Yes, we have to timing and SERP belts now (chains in some cases), CV joints that last hundreds of thousands if one bothers to inspect the bellows/seals.

I challenge you to take a factory fresh `1970 Cadillac (top of the domestic line) and a 2019 Corolla, drive them identically and see which one is still running well at 200k miles.

So...no trolling thank you very much,

Tony

softdown

Marc Kurth said:

Contrary to poplar opinion, I buy low mileage used rental cars with 20K to 30K miles. The trick is to NOT buy high performance models that people abused.

Two of my daughters do the same. We have been buying American made cars,trucks and SUV's, in 2WD, 4WD and AWD and they have always run out to 225K to 250K miles, then we sell them before they break. I could bore you with a list of GM, Ford, Ram stories, but they all go long mileage with no serious problems.

I am currently driving a 2016 Ram with the 390HP V8 from Enterprise that I bought with 22K miles on it, now at 62K.

My wife still loves her 2011 Chevy Traverse that we bought in 2013 with 23K miles, now at 183K and no repairs so far.

Marc

I've also had awesome luck with that strategy. Not wanting a year old car with 20,000 miles for $20,000. Thinking 10-30 years old with 100,000 miles or so. All about the gas mileage this time around. 

Got plenty with serious miles:
256,000
204,000
198,000
165,000
120,000
  70,000
Unknown but burns oil

All about the gas mileage this time. Got the 488 and 454 for real work. 

I've been watching a LOT of Scotty Kilmer's youtube videos. He is big on Toyota and Honda and Ford trucks. He is honest and has 51 years of mechanic experience. Hard to compete with that.  I've also had great luck with Ford trucks and could not resist yet another. 300,000 is not unreasonable with proper maintenance. 

Decided I need to do about all of my own mechanic work. Was the Jolly Green Giant of my school. The cramped spaces of modern cars are a constant source of scabs. Constant. Nitrile gloves break every few minutes. You could pitch a hammock in the engine compartment of large 60's Detroit cars. They were so much fun to work on. 

BB.

One suggestion to folks that are having Engine Light on and codes that indicate problems with mixture sensing (possible O2 sensor or Mass Air flow sensor problems)... The guy I took my vehicles to for smog cert (California), suggested the first try is a Q-Tip and alcohol and clean the Mass Air Flow Sensors (wires in the intake air path). A cheap and quick fix if it works, and may save you a Mass Air Flow replacement. Claims he fixed hundreds of vehicles with Mixture "problems".

I do remember the olden days (1960's) when my Father did his own repairs on various cars/trucks... When you got to 100,000 miles, the vehicles were generally wrecks. Major overhauls needed, if the body and suspension was anywhere near good shape (salt fog near ocean, pot hole roads, etc. did jobs on the suspension--Needed to grease the various joints every XX,000 miles, change oil every 1,500 miles, etc.--As I recall).

Today, perhaps thinking of an engine overall in the 100-150,000 miles (or longer)... I had problems with valve guides in my 2000 Honda accord 4 cylinder, lost a ring gear in the differential (never had that happen before on any vehicle). On the valve job/front wheel drive, it was only $500 more to short block vs just a valve job. On 7,500 miles between oil changes.

Generally, take care of the vehicle, and they will do OK. Avoid VW, Peugeot, and others... The American cars in the 1970s--The Japanese were great, comparatively speaking.To each his own...

-Bill

tabbycat

My Ford F-250 gets 15 mpg. A car that gets 30 mpg would tempt me to drive twice as many miles. Ergo I have not saved a penny on fuel.

icarus

AFAIK, the largest cause of CEL’s is O2 sensors.  The problem for customers and mechanics is that CELs come on for hundreds of different reasons, and you come into the shop today for a CEL and it turns our to be a O2 sensor.  The next week, it comes back on again, and you are pissed that the machine just “fixed it”, but now its on (and you don’t know why) for a completely different problem, likes MAF sensor. People either panic or ignore CELs.  By ignoring, a whole load of them can stack up, and as far as you know there was just one.  A simple OBDI scan gauge or code reader is a very handy too, and quite cheap...under $100.  Buy having and using one, you can read the code, look up what it is, determine if your need to do something about it now, clear the code, and see if it reoccurs.  I have one on every vehicle, plus one on my bench for friends.  

Tony

littleharbor2

Marc Kurth said:

Contrary to poplar opinion, I buy low mileage used rental cars with 20K to 30K miles. The trick is to NOT buy high performance models that people abused.

Two of my daughters do the same. We have been buying American made cars,trucks and SUV's, in 2WD, 4WD and AWD and they have always run out to 225K to 250K miles, then we sell them before they break. I could bore you with a list of GM, Ford, Ram stories, but they all go long mileage with no serious problems.

I am currently driving a 2016 Ram with the 390HP V8 from Enterprise that I bought with 22K miles on it, now at 62K.

My wife still loves her 2011 Chevy Traverse that we bought in 2013 with 23K miles, now at 183K and no repairs so far.

Marc

Marc, Are these rental cars/trucks selling at a lower price than an equivalent privately owned vehicle? Just curious what advantage there would be over buying a non rental.

Marc Kurth

I gave found that pricing is flat (predetermined) and has definitely been on the low side of market conditions. I'm not saying that you cannot find a better deal somewhere, but it is tough. You can negotiate for stuff like new tires (I got a bedliner) but generally not price. They buy a LOT of cars so they are buying them cheaper than the the average person and turning them over at around 13-16 months, They don't have an emotional attachment to them, like some folks do. They want no headaches or returns, they just want them gone.

My Ram truck is a great example, I paid $19,200 in late 2017 when it had 21,850 miles on it. I could not find one for less than $23,000. at the time. I normally pay cash because I don't like paying interest, but  they offered me 1.9% for three years, with no down.

Again, I only do this to get a vehicle with low miles on it. I can find cars cheaper with lots of miles on them. Hertz, Avis and Enterprise have their inventory online with prices and pictures shown.

In many cases, the factory warranty stays intact because they know that the maintenance schedules were followed.

littleharbor2

Thanks. All good info.  
 On a somewhat related note. 
 I bought a 2003 Dodge 2500 Cummins powered 4X4 truck in Phoenix a number of years ago. I got a good deal at $13,5000. About 4 years later I was T-boned by another vehicle and the truck was totaled.  Being very concerned what my insurance would pay me for the truck because I wanted to get a comparable truck with the Laredo package like the totaled one. Boy was I surprised when they paid me $27,000 for it. DOUBLE what I bought it for! I also could have bought it back for $2,200. It was repairable and the diesel engine alone was worth more than $2,200.

Dave Angelini

Along with the car rentals I would say also look at large Tech companies near you. Hewlett Packard would turn in their Ford fleet every other year and throw in a laptop. Lot's of people I know got laptops and excellent cars for the money. 

One of my offgrid buds is the best mechanic I have ever known. We barter and he always says never buy a car from a little old lady or one that has really low miles. The low miles is ok if it is driven regularly and gotten up to temp on an hour drive or longer.
 Beware of cars that sit and do nothing! Or really like working on cars!

Bill will like hearing that buying a car from an engineer is a good bet that it will be OK. We went one step further with the higher educated engineers at HP. There were some with PHD's that were so smart in electronics that they would forget to go to work. The department secretary would call them often they did not answer. She would go to there home and wake them up and bring them to work. Their cars had really low milage

softdown

Dave Angelini said:

Along with the car rentals I would say also look at large Tech companies near you. Hewlett Packard would turn in their Ford fleet every other year and throw in a laptop. Lot's of people I know got laptops and excellent cars for the money. 

One of my offgrid buds is the best mechanic I have ever known. We barter and he always says never buy a car from a little old lady or one that has really low miles. The low miles is ok if it is driven regularly and gotten up to temp on an hour drive or longer.
 Beware of cars that sit and do nothing! Or really like working on cars!

Bill will like hearing that buying a car from an engineer is a good bet that it will be OK. We went one step further with the higher educated engineers at HP. There were some with PHD's that were so smart in electronics that they would forget to go to work. The department secretary would call them often they did not answer. She would go to there home and wake them up and bring them to work. Their cars had really low milage

Kind of goes to show you that one will eventually hear everything if enough opinions are garnered. We are already well on our way here.

Woke up with a slightly different line of reasoning. Rather than buy an old economy for the next 5 years or so - there is a sound argument for a newer car for the next 15 years or so.

Nice spot to be in really. I can kick back and wait for an unusual opportunity and pay cash when it seems to have arrived. 

Buying a fleet vehicle driven by an engineer would be of strong interest. 

Highway miles are ten times easier on a car than city driving. But how do you really know about that? I've met plenty of sincere seeming people that would drop huge lies when a sale was in the works. No better than sales people in my opinion - when a sale could be made.

If everybody was like my dad. He would always meet people and tell them what faults the car had first thing. Couldn't sell firewood to a Canadian though. 

icarus

^ That is because Canadian’s don’t buy firewood, we cut and split it ourselves...

softdown

Don't kid yourself mate. They started off by running away from American patriots who were going to lynch them for failing to support the Revolution. Nice people? Probably. But England  would still be the global cop if we were more like those who became Canadians. Many of them later participated in the route of 1812 though. They can fight when it makes sense to them.

Now if someone wants to discuss the Revolution in more detail? Could be an interesting thread. But this one is about reliable economy cars.

BB.

Regarding "engineer's cars" or others... Trust but verify.

Had a friend that loved rebuilding/hot rodding cars and pickups... He had a brand new truck (mid 1970's GMC, Ford, whatever)--And wanted to see how far it would go without any oil changes (for the win, ~40,000 miles until the engine failed/burned too much oil). He did not care because he wanted to hot rod the truck engine anyway (by the way, he was an A&P certified aircraft mechanic, and owned a WWII warbird or two).

-Bill

softdown

What do you know? In my Facebook feed  - what a coincidence. https://www.kbb.com/car-reviews-and-news/top-10/best-used-cars-under-5000/2100005369/

softdown

Now I'm thinking of a Subaru all wheel drive. Winter snows last up to eight months here. Plus I could get further away from the main roads.

I see a ton of Subaru's that get about 1/2 mile up the Lake Como trail. aka: Blanca Peak trail - as tough as any in Colorado - rated #1 for challenge. I want to do it three times in one day next year - with three different rigs. Running back and forth as well. Its my gig I guess. 

Dave Angelini

I love Canada! A dozen clients up there and they don't ask many dumb questions because it is always a challenge to live there in the winter. Some very tough and smart people.

 A few asked me to install an autopilot on their boats down in Mexico. I would just say you hand steered the entire pacific coast or the hardest part of it and now you want an autopilot? They would say eh

icarus

softdown said:

Don't kid yourself mate. They started off by running away from American patriots who were going to lynch them for failing to support the Revolution. Nice people? Probably. But England  would still be the global cop if we were more like those who became Canadians. Many of them later participated in the route of 1812 though. They can fight when it makes sense to them.

Now if someone wants to discuss the Revolution in more detail? Could be an interesting thread. But this one is about reliable economy cars.

Ah..the French and the British were in what now call “Canada” long before the American Revolution,  in fact long before the famed “pilgrims “ of Plymouth Rock,  or Jamestown.  IIRC, Britain “claimed” Newfoundland in 1583 and Quebec City was “born” in 1608.  In addition, there is documented Norse settlements in L’Anse Au Meadows in northern Newfoundland ~1000.  Pretty cool place to visit BTW.

Not to to mention the indigenous peoples that have been here a lot longer.  There is a lot more to world history that the US centric version.

BTW, back on subject, Subaru makes great cars, especially in snow country.  I have driven mine 18 km down an unplowed road with 30 cm of fresh snow, with a rain crust on top, with only all season tires.  Once it is going, you can’t stop it.  That said, some sufffer from head gasket problems, and the newer version of CVTs are somewhat suspect in some eyes.  I have a ‘16 outback, and wish I still had my ‘99.  They get significant poorer fuel mileage than some others, due to the AWD, but the newer ones are somewhat better.  I get ~30(USmpg) in my ‘16, got only 25 with the ‘99.  

Tony