Tariff on Chinese panels........

softdown

http://time.com/5113472/donald-trump-solar-panel-tariff/

softdown

Happened today....I think.

Photowhit

I got the idea that it's an across the board tariff on imported panels and cells, not just China. At least it's known and the industry can start moving again.

OldMan

I haven't seen evidence of the tariff starting, yet, and I haven't seen anything in the NYT about it. What's up with it?

OldMan

Even with the tariff, my panels from China will cost less than from an American vendor. No one makes panels in the US, any more.

Estragon

Per Bloomberg; 1st 2.5GW exempt, tarriff of 30% for a year, then dropping to 15% gradually over unspecified number of years.

Photowhit

Estragon said:

Per Bloomberg; 1st 2.5GW exempt, ...

If someone could explain this I'd be interested. I can't recall the numbers but thought we only installed 10 GWs per year...

Photowhit

OldMan said:

I haven't seen evidence of the tariff starting, yet, and I haven't seen anything in the NYT about it. What's up with it?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/22/business/trump-tariffs-washing-machines-solar-panels.html

Dave Angelini

Some of the best are made here BTW. Prism one of the most beautiful bifacial panels in NY, Mission in Texas,and Panasonic also in New York and another plant I can't remember. Sunpower has headquarters in San Jose. The Tarif is what the 2 companies who were driven out of business from dumping below cost Suniva and ? wanted. It is less than what was wanted and phases out pretty fast also. 

Photowhit

Dave Angelini said:

It is less than what was wanted and phases out pretty fast also. 

But, I think more than what was suggested. I think 20% was suggested after evaluation.

Dave Angelini

My read  is he took a middle ground so it depends on what is read. My info is from my suppliers who are biased for this.
Their main goal was to take away a tax credit for buyers here that basically was subsidizing non US made cells and panels.

I really do not like tariffs and I think companies will start coming back with the new much needed tax policy of the US government.


I remember when Sunpower sent most all of there production out but kept the R & D in San Jose where I lived at the time. I hope they bring it back here with inexpensive energy a favorable business climate. Their panels are amazing for power per square foot, with a 25 year product warranty and internal connections that are triple redundant.

littleharbor2

Can't say that I've researched this tariff at all but I am curious. Where is this money going? With the current administration's attitude on renewable energy I'd be surprised it would be going that direction.

Dave Angelini

So what is their "attitude?" Have you researched it or are you reading the NY times:)

littleharbor2

Neither Dave, Lets just say with Trumps Pro coal and offshore drilling, overland pipeline stance coupled with his feelings on global warming I concluded he's not real Pro renewable energy. Maybe I shouldn't assume such things. Still curious as to what happens to this tariff money?

BB.

Constitutionally, tariffs are the original method of funding the federal government.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h394.html

The Constitution (text) gives Congress the power to collect duties and imposts (Article I, Section 8, Clause 1), but prohibits the imposition of export duties (Article I, Section 9, Clause 5).

Things like income taxes and federal employment taxes were something later (and of questionable constitutionality).

I am pro "green", but much of the federal and state laws+subsidies are "green washing". At best most are an environmental wash, and many are trashing the environment. And making for expensive and unreliable utility power.

Early pollution control laws worked out well (once manufactures figured out how to make reliable clean cars once manufactures figured put how).

For example, pipelines are much cheaper and safer than than trucks and rail cars. Look up "Warren Buffett cashes in on rail tank cars" as some folks blocked the northern pipelines.

Bill

littleharbor2

Offshore drilling and pipelines are safe, until they fail, Then they are usually catastrophic. 

Dave Angelini

The one part of the last FERC hearing a few weeks back I was hopeful for was hardening the grid. 
But they rolled Coal subsidies and Nuclear in and we were lucky it did not pass. If there is anything that raises my neck hairs is an EMP with 40 reactors in the states. I mean way up the scale from an oil leak.  You better stay in Mexico that year!   --Dave

"In its decision, the five-member energy panel essentially agreed with critics who said there was no evidence of a threat to the grid’s day-to-day reliability that would justify the emergency action Perry was seeking.

An Energy Department report last year called reliability “adequate,” citing significant additions to the grid from natural gas, wind, and solar.

FERC said in its decision that it is launching a new process to evaluate the resilience of the nation’s electric grid, which is overseen by a network of regional transmission organizations and independent system operators.

Left: An independent energy agency on Monday rejected a Trump administration plan to bolster coal-fired and nuclear power plants, dealing a blow to President Donald Trump's efforts to boost the struggling coal industry. Photo by Chris Aluka Berry/REUTERS

• 
  

By — 

Matthew Daly, Associated Press

BB.

Even big events have a mixed affect on the environment.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6029514

(Crude) Oil is a natural product. There have been natural seeps forever and microbes have evolved to digest things like oil.

Bill

Dave Angelini

Yep!  but none to digest plutonium

Estragon

> @Dave Angelini said:
> Yep!  but none to digest plutonium

Yet. We'll be dust, but cockroaches will feast on our aftermath

Plucka

Are tariffs just and extra tax or is Trump going to give the money back in another way ?

mcgivor

All too often a tariff is a tax in disguise, plowed into general revenues and used for whatever. A trustworthy government will be transparent showing where the benefits of the tariff are used to benifit the nation as a whole, honestly and integrity are key. This could be for any nation, any leader, but it would seem few are forthcoming in these departments. Just an unbiased viewpoint.

littleharbor2

This exact thing has been bugging me lately. Where does this Tariff money go? 
 Seems to me it should be earmarked to benefit the industry sector it was put in place to protect in the first place. 

mcgivor

The tariffs could force foreign  companies to set up shop in the nation which chooses to impose such penalties, using inexpensive labor, at first, to build the production chain , until organized  lobour unions step in driving the price  up to where importation once again becomes less expensive, but more expensive for the consumer. Then there will be another election with a flip flop in policy, which will open markets providing opportunity to the country with the lowest labor costs, then the whole process will repeat itself.
No nation is immune, it's simply  economics.

Dave Angelini

He of course is keeping it for himself and wants everyone in the solar industry to pay him 5 cents per KWH

It is just revenue. Like the gasoline tax in California it goes everywhere and then they have little money left to repair the roads.

littleharbor2

Dave Angelini said:

It is just revenue. Like the gasoline tax in California it goes everywhere and then they have little money left to repair the roads.

Boy!, you've got that right Dave. California HAS to have more vehicles registered than any other state. Yet we have some of the worst roads in some areas. Don't get me started on registration fees. I happen to own two trucks, one on Catalina and one on the mainland. I could buy a nice used car with what it cost me in yearly registration fees. I Could move one state away and do them both for less than one C-note.

softdown

Given Trumps choice of words "beautiful clean coal" and fondness for our oil companies, there is almost no chance that Trump will be solar friendly.

Interesting that our Millenials often think that solar can solve our problems. Try telling them that solar requires currently unavailable battery technology in order to replace the current grid? You will find just how spoiled, immature, unrealistic, and petulant many of them are. They must also believe in unicorns and fairy dust to power industry.

Our mistake was energizing China to engage in free trade. It is a matter of time before China is the global super power and the rest of the developed world is largely in debtors shambles. Sound familiar?

It is a bit late to radically change course now. Too many powerful people getting rich from Chinese manufacturing and importing. We painted ourselves into the proverbial corner. 

bill von novak

softdown said:

Interesting that our Millenials often think that solar can solve our problems. Try telling them that solar requires currently unavailable battery technology in order to replace the current grid? You will find just how spoiled, immature, unrealistic, and petulant many of them are. They must also believe in unicorns and fairy dust to power industry.

It's fun to rag on millenials, but none of the millenials I know think that. They're surprisingly well informed once you talk to them about it.

Photowhit

bill von novak said:

softdown said:

Interesting that our Millenials often think that solar can solve our problems. Try telling them that solar requires currently unavailable battery technology in order to replace the current grid? You will find just how spoiled, immature, unrealistic, and petulant many of them are. They must also believe in unicorns and fairy dust to power industry.

It's fun to rag on millenials, but none of the millenials I know think that. They're surprisingly well informed once you talk to them about it.

VERY surprised to hear that. It's simply amazing how companies promote this as well. Love Apple 'saying' they are 100%  powered by renewable energy... Of course this is BS unless you count the grid as a battey;

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/04/apple-now-globally-powered-by-100-percent-renewable-energy/

I have bright intelligent friends who continually suggest we can be sustained on renewables. They also like to point to Germany and how on some days they "produce all their needed electric by solar" which is of course BS... They too are counting pushing into a EU grid and drawing from it or their own fossil fueled sources at night;

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601514/germany-runs-up-against-the-limits-of-renewables/

Estragon

How does that go again? Something like "If you aren't a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you stay a liberal when you're older, you have no brain".

The Millenials I know are all quite capable of understanding the challenges of doing something close to 100% renewables once they're explained. The problem is they, like most other people, tend to think in terms of simple slogans, sound bites, and marketing in forming opinions, for the simple reason that they don't have time to do a deep dive on the facts.

Once motivated to do the deep dive, I've found them mostly better than us old farts at sorting out the real facts vs FUD and marketing BS.

As far as tariffs go, maybe I should get the couple of things I need from the US before they close the border?

Dave Angelini

The border will not close!  It is just time for the US to stop subsidizing places that are safe enough to not start another war.

Tariffs are against the US also but that does not need to be reported....

We (US) can't really can't afford anymore wars!

Look at the last couple hundred years. A pretty good record of at least trying to be the good guy. Not perfect but tell me please who do you think would be better?