Going off grid

mike95490

wellbuilt said:

.......
 I think the regulator in the pic will take 2 12vvolt units and bump them to 24 volt charging current 

I don't see how that could work.  Most alternators have the neg lead wired to the Case (chassis ground) and a single hot  +12V lead coming out.  2 alternators, both with grounded cases, can only give you 12V.  If you used plywood mounting gear, and could isolate the chassis, then you could stack them for higher voltage.

wellbuilt

If I remember correctly , the Alt was grounded to the block , the block ground went to the battery's . 
 There was one wire that went to the regulator . 
 The regulator had 2 wires 1 went to battery for  temperature regulation 
the other was to read voltage .
 I think the pos hot lead went to 2 different pos battery posts . 
 3 150 amp hr 12 v gel cells .  
 I remove the 2Alts I was having trouble with the water pumps and mounting brackets . 
 Added  regular alt plus solar panels when we went to a  sailboat morring . 

wellbuilt

wellbuilt

I have this panel  available locally  , are these any good ?
 They cost about .44 cents a watt .

BB.

Compared to when we use to pay $10+ per Watt... These, if they only last 5 years, are a much better deal than a decade or two ago.

I have no idea of what is a good or bad panel anymore... I think UL (and similar) marks (if not counterfeit) are a good sign of quality--If nothing more than it probably takes $50,000 +/- to List a panel--Fly by night folks are not going to pay for that (but they may buy counterfeit UL holograms instead).

These are Vmp~30 volt panels--You have the MPPT controller (and numbers of panels per string) to support your battery bank voltage?

-Bill

Photowhit

Are these ET Solar 315W?

The only link I found didn't show ETL or UL certifications. Not that that's a non starter for off grid.

wellbuilt

wellbuilt

Is this the listing I'm looking for

BB.

CE really does not mean much (self certification by manufacturer to European Standards of some sort).

ETL is another NRTL (Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory)--Basically a competitor to UL. Presumably equivalent unless proven otherwise (I have used several different labs--They each have their strengths and weaknesses). Each major country may have its own NRTL (at least one, sometimes more than one).

-Bill

wellbuilt

I've done some on line reading and it looks like NY state wants every thing to be ULListed . 
 They have a 79 page guide line for solar power . 
 I skimmed thru , it looks like a lot of REGS I hope I can pull this off

BB.

NYC (and many cities) in times past wrote into their codes "UL" -- There was no other (many decades ago). Today, there are national government agreements that "created" the NRTL -- Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories. In-country labs can get certified to be an NRTL. And the national governments have treaties that say US UL has the same legal "rights" as TUV Rhineland (Germany).

Before NRTLs, these were used as import restrictions to prevent foreign imports (i.e., you had to get "certified" by the in-country lab before you could import your product).

However--Some local government agencies have been slow to accept the "beyond UL" NRTL Listing/Registrations. The current list of NRTLs used by US Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA):

https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

Not all labs can "certify" the same stuff... One may do circuit breakers and wiring, another may do toy...

ETL should be acceptable to your agency (UL had books that confirmed listed/recognized products by mfg name and model numbers--I assume that is all now on the web).

-Bill

Photowhit

Also be aware there are different standards, and often UL is often stated as a standard. I could not read your label, I see the ETL logo, but typically it will say "ETL Listed, conforms to UL standard ...."

While I don't think there are different standards for solar panels, I understand there are at least 2 different UL standards for inverters. Home use UL 1741, mobile use UL 458, there may be another one for telecommunication use. I've seen some mention of this with ExelTech.

wellbuilt

Thank for all the help Bill , I'm going to get a hold of my elect under writer and see  how he wants to proceed. 
 I'm hoping I can get him on board . 
 Maybe walk me thru step buy step , It doesn't seem very hard to wire this up .
 I wire houses all the time but this is different 

wellbuilt

wellbuilt

Is this what I'm looking for ? 

BB.

Yep, look like it:

http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=1703_3

1.1 These requirements cover flat-plate photovoltaic modules and panels intended for installation on or integral with buildings, or to be freestanding (that is, not attached to buildings), in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70, and Model Building Codes.

1.2 These requirements cover modules and panels intended for use in systems with a maximum system voltage of 1000 V or less.

1.3 These requirements also cover components intended to provide electrical connection to and mounting facilities for flat-plate photovoltaic modules and panels.

1.4 These requirements do not cover:

a)    Equipment intended to accept the electrical output from the array, such as power conditioning units (inverters) and batteries;

b)    Any tracking mechanism;

c)    Cell assemblies intended to operate under concentrated sunlight;

d)    Optical concentrators; or

e)    Combination photovoltaic-thermal modules or panels.

1.5 Deleted October 1, 2003

---

DETAILS

• Edition Number: 3
• Edition Date: 03/15/2002
• Price Code: D
• Type: ulstd
• ANSI Approved: 06/22/2016
• DOD Approved: —

• Cover
• Transmittal
• Table of Contents
• UL Foreword
• Body
  • INTRODUCTION
    • 1 Scope
    • 2 Glossary
    • 3 Units of Measurement
    • 4 Components
    • 5 References
  • CONSTRUCTION
    • 6 General
    • 7 Polymeric Materials
    • 8 Current-Carrying Parts and Internal Wiring
    • 9 Wireways
    • 10 Connection Means
    • 11 Bonding and Grounding
    • 12 Spacings
    • 13 Wiring Compartments
      • 13.1 General
      • 13.2 Metallic wiring compartments
      • 13.3 Nonmetallic wiring compartments
    • 14 Corrosion Resistance
    • 15 Accessibility of Uninsulated Live Parts
    • 16 Fire Performance - PV Modules or Panels and Roofs
    • 17 Superstrate
  • PERFORMANCE
    • 18 General
    • 18A Thin-Film Modules
    • 19 Temperature Test
    • 20 Voltage, Current and Power Measurements Test
    • 21 Leakage Current Test
    • 22 Strain Relief Test
    • 23 Push Test
    • 24 Cut Test
    • 25 Bonding Path Resistance Test
    • 26 Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Test
    • 27 Wet Insulation-Resistance Test
    • 28 Reverse Current Overload Test
    • 29 Terminal Torque Test
    • 30 Impact Test
    • 31 Fire Tests
      • 31.1 Type tests for fire performance characterization of modules and panels independent of roof coverings
      • 31.2 System Fire Class Rating of module or panel with mounting systems in combination with roof coverings
    • 32 General
    • 33 Water Spray Test
    • 34 Accelerated Aging Test
    • 35 Temperature Cycling Test
    • 36 Humidity Test
    • 37 Corrosive Atmosphere Test
      • 37.1 Salt spray test
      • 37.2 Moist carbon dioxide/sulphur dioxide
    • 38 Metallic Coating Thickness Test
    • 39 Hot-Spot Endurance Test
      • 39.1 General
      • 39.2 Cell selection and instrumentation
      • 39.3 Intrusive method
      • 39.4 Nonintrusive method
      • 39.5 Theory and method of cell selection
      • 39.6 Selection of hot-spot test level
      • 39.7 Type A cells (high shunt resistance)
      • 39.8 Type B cells (low shunt resistance)
      • 39.9 Test execution
    • 40 Arcing Test
      • 40.1 General
      • 40.2 Method A
      • 40.3 Method B
      • 40.4 Methods A and B
      • 40.5 Method C
      • 40.6 All methods
    • 41 Mechanical Loading Test
    • 42 Wiring Compartment Securement Test
    • 42A Cemented Joints
      • 42A.1 General
      • 42A.2 Material tests
      • 42A.3 UV weathering resistance
  • PRODUCTION LINE TESTS
    • 43 Factory Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Test
    • 44 Factory Voltage, Current, and Power Measurements Test
    • 45 Grounding Continuity Test
  • RATING
    • 46 Details
  • MARKING
    • 47 Details
    • 48 Installation and Assembly Instructions
• SAMPLE PRODUCTION LINE TESTS
• APPENDIX A
• APPENDIX B
• Superseded List

You cannot read these standards online--You have to pay pretty big bucks to get a copy ($800-$1,000 for this one). "They" make money on writing standards too:

http://ulstandards.ul.com/ul-standards-price-codes/

-Bill

wellbuilt

That's good news . 
 I'm thinking of getting 12 of these ET 315 watts unites , for 3780 watts . What would be the best way to wire them to a midnight classic and a 24 volt system ?
 3 in series 4 in  parallel or 4 in series 3 parallel and will the 12 et315 panels work with the midnight classic ?

Photowhit

The charge controller will have less losses keeping the voltage about 2x the output voltage, so in pairs for a 24 volt system, in fact you may not be able to do strings or 3 and I'm pretty sure you can't do strings of 4 do to the VOC.

Midnite's string sizing tool;

http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/

wellbuilt

Ok , I've come up with 2 series 4 parallel for 8 panels and 2520 watts . 
 I think the classic 150 will take up to 2700 watts . 
 Could I just add 2 of 4 more panels for more Rain day power or will we need a second controler .
  I'm assuming the charging amps to the battery from the controller are adjustable .

BB.

MPPT maximum continuous output current is limited by design. For a 24 volt battery bank, it is rated for 94 amps max. For a solar array, the maximum cost effective array is (roughly):

• 94 amps * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller losses = 3,540 Watt array "cost effective" maximum

Note you are running the controller at maximum rated current (power). They do generate heat and need good cooling (do not install in a closed closet with poor ventilation). Also note that this controller uses a fan for cooling--They can be quite loud and you probably do not want to mount near a bedroom (day time resting) or inside an office/occupied living space.

-Bill

Estragon

Chances are panels won't actually produce STC output even on most nice days.  Adding extra (within reason) for light cloud days shouldn't be a problem.  On heavily overcast rain days you won't get much no matter how many panels you have.

Photowhit

wellbuilt said:

Ok , I've come up with 2 series 4 parallel for 8 panels and 2520 watts . 
 I think the classic 150 will take up to 2700 watts . 
 Could I just add 2 of 4 more panels for more Rain day power or will we need a second controler .
  I'm assuming the charging amps to the battery from the controller are adjustable .

What is interesting is that in general you almost never see full output through the charge controller. It may sound odd, but in general you try to only use the top 20% of your battery capacity, and as the sun comes up your array, properly mounted to catch the midday sun, begins charging with some minimal current. By the time maximum power is available your batteries are taking in less current filling in the last 10% of capacity.

I like your thinking on having the 'rainy day' power, as that will help keep your batteries happy and allow for quicker charging after a few rainy days, when you might actually see maximum output.

wellbuilt

wellbuilt

Ok I think I have the house power figured out . 
 Now the well . 
 I would like to run the pump off solar panels . 
I am thinking of a grundfos  6sqf3 my well is 740' plus 
 we hit water around 650 .
 I've seen static water leaves from 500' the day after we drilled to 300' late summer three years in a row. 
 My driller is thinking I have around 2/4 gallons a min . 
  So what the wire chart is telling me ,is I need to get 600 watts at 210 volts 
and use a 12 g wire for 692' or a 10 g wire for 1099 .
or use 8 panels for 800 watts 280 volts 12g wire at 922 feet of wire length . 
 Is there any way to use the same ET 315  watt panel with 36.81 MVP to run the pump .
 Or do I need to run 70 volt panels . 

bsolar

it would probably be a much better approach to re-think your water system .. an above ground holding tank of sufficient size to last say a week, filled to capacity by grid or generator is an option .. you could then power you needs from it with a ~30w rv pump lol .. seriously ..

wellbuilt

Thanks for the reply , I am thinking of  running to a holding tank but I'm not sure about the pump .
 My well guy. Has spec   a large pump 3 hp with plastic pipe to 720' I really don't think you can pump from that depth with that hp  even  schedule 120 pvc would burst .
 We mite have to go with steel pipe but steal rusts out . 
 I don't think I can deal with the steal pipe my self  and the guys are talking a huge some of money to  install the system 
 At this point I think I could slide 700 foot of plastic pipe down the hole. 
 And the  Grundfos 6 SQF3 would work with less  pressure  hopefully get away with plastic pipe. 
 I would think I need a 1000g of water a week and I have no place for a tank that large. 
 I can't  bury it I'm on rock . 
I have a 3'  area to stand a tank in my garage . ( 600 gal I think). 
 I don't have grid power and don't really want it . 
 I could get a soft start pump and pump into a tank with no foot valve but I have not looked in to that at all . 
 My well guy is a friend and is a good driller but doesn't  install pumps .
 

mcgivor

wellbuilt said:

Thanks for the reply , I am thinking of  running to a holding tank but I'm not sure about the pump .
 My well guy. Has spec   a large pump 3 hp with plastic pipe to 720' I really don't think you can pump from that depth with that hp  even  schedule 120 pvc would burst .
 We mite have to go with steel pipe but steal rusts out . 
 I don't think I can deal with the steal pipe my self  and the guys are talking a huge some of money to  install the system 
 At this point I think I could slide 700 foot of plastic pipe down the hole. 
 And the  Grundfos 6 SQF3 would work with less  pressure  hopefully get away with plastic pipe. 
 I would think I need a 1000g of water a week and I have no place for a tank that large. 
 I can't  bury it I'm on rock . 
I have a 3'  area to stand a tank in my garage . ( 600 gal I think). 
 I don't have grid power and don't really want it . 
 I could get a soft start pump and pump into a tank with no foot valve but I have not looked in to that at all . 
 My well guy is a friend and is a good driller but doesn't  install pumps .
 

That's a deep  well, 700 feet of water column would be around 300 psi for the pump  to overcome, not an expert by any means, just curiosity led me to see if PVC could be used at these pressures, came across an interesting chart which may be of interest to you. 
https://sizes.com/materials/pipe_PVC.htm

Estragon

I think the advantage to the grunfoss pump is it runs on a wide range of dc voltages, which should give you a lot of flexibility in panelling. I would talk to Naws to confirm.

Don't know what sort of 3hp motor they spec'd. 3ph AC? I assume you would prefer to use high voltage dc and avoid an inverter?

wellbuilt

mcgivor said

That's a deep  well, 700 feet of water column would be around 300 psi for the pump  to overcome, not an expert by any means, just curiosity led me to see if PVC could be used at these pressures, came across an interesting chart which may be of interest to you. 
https://sizes.com/materials/pipe_PVC.htm

   I've seen a chart like that and the sch 80  psi seem close to me. 
  Sch 120 is better but 700 ' of pipe and fitting where quoted at 2500$  just for the pipe .
 Sch 80 is less money but still a lot . 
 The psi ratting is with glued fittings I believe   Threaded PVC  is not as strong because of the threaded area on the male end .  
 I want to have the well fracked and hopefully the water will come up .
  I'm not looking forward to lowering 700' of pipe down the hole.

wellbuilt

Estragon 
 i think I need about 600/700 watts at 270 volts to pump from 700 feet. 
 That would be 9 80 watt panels @ 32volts I think . For about 2 gallons a min .2 hrs a day 240 gallons. 
  Every thing is very pricey even the wire . 
  I could run the pump on 240 volt ac from a genarator but solar pumping would be cool . 
 We will be getting water off the roof for now . 
I don't Know my draw down yet we never pumped the well it was to deep. 
 We drilled the well over 2 days and the end of the sec day we sunk our last drill tube ate lunch pumped the hole and got 100 gallons in 20 min just buy eyeing the water that came out of the hole. 
 The driller has drilled a bunch of wells for me but this is his deepest well. 
 I am doing the septic this year and the well the next ,so I have some time