Latest offering from Power Jack (ugh!)

littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Solar Skeptics, Hype, & Scams Corner #1
I was curious if anybody here would care to comment on this disaster waiting to happen from our friends at Power Jack. This little gem is being offered as an early presale item due to ship in February. It boasts an astonishing 15,000 watt output with a surge rating of 60,000 watts!!!...all from a 24 volt battery bank.
 Although I'm not fond of this social media term I must use it here.  SMH???
 Not sure if I can post this link here but in this context I think it might be considered a public service announcement. 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/15000w-LF-pure-sine-wave-SPLITE-PHASE-power-inverter-dc-24v-ac110V-220V-presale-/322330777403?hash=item4b0c69573b:g:WegAAOSw5cNYLs2q&vxp=mtr

2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    "Ideally suitable for Journeys, Camping, Tents, Boat Trip, Working on the way and everywhere, where is no electricity!
    Simply connect our with 24V battery.
    For example as in a Car, Motorcycle, Camper or Boat and use 110V electrical appliances."

    It is pretty heavy.

    What does SMH stand for? Why do folks killing time on the internet feel the need to use so many abbreviations that so many have no idea what it stands for anyway?

    So I'm on a motorcycle trip and need 60,000 watts from an ~150 pound device? Sure thing. Looks like a unicorn to me.

    One problem with Asian sellers is communication if there is a problem. The ad is written quite poorly....not a good sign.

    I think they got carried away with their wattage claims.

    Specifies 110 volts while employing universal sockets...I am a bit confused. Those sockets will scare a lot of Americans.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    I totally agree with the abbreviation thing. It bugs me to no end. SMH stands for shaking my head, as in disbelief, as in 60,000 watts into a 24 volt bank is roughly 2,500 amps. Is there even cable large enough to handle 2,500 amps?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • AguarancherAguarancher Solar Expert Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    #4
    "I totally agree with the abbreviation thing. It bugs me to no end." that's what having kids is for, along with texting. i draw the line at facebook..never had it, never will...
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  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,630 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
    You might find the cable on E-bay only :)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail [email protected]

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2016 #6
    littleharbor2 said:
    I totally agree with the abbreviation thing. It bugs me to no end. SMH stands for shaking my head, as in disbelief, as in 60,000 watts into a 24 volt bank is roughly 2,500 amps. Is there even cable large enough to handle 2,500 amps?
    There are plenty of tools for working with cable that has well over four times the mass of 4/0. A size 120 die set will crimp 4/0. I have a size 400 die set. My Ideal 35-053 cable cutters will cut 750 MCM cable....which makes 4/0 look pretty small.

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2016 #7
    Here are some 750 MCM specs:
    OD: 1.156"
    Weight: 2.468 lbs/foot
    Amps:475 amps at 75C.....Southwire is far more confident in their chart

    Not as hefty as I thought.

    Here is a chart (maybe) of the larger cables:
    http//www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet46
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Iceni JohnIceni John Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭
    edited November 2016 #8

    Its efficiency (or lack thereof) is a claimed 90%.   That means it could be producing 1500W of heat.   Forget about using it as an inverter, or whatever it's supposed to be  -  use it for the one thing it probably does quite well, a room heater.   For the price it's not a bad deal for a 1500W heater, and there's enough space inside it to also dry clothes and maybe warm food or germinate seedlings.   And if (when?) the magic smoke ever gets let out, the cabinet would make a good dog kennel or chicken coop.   See, it's very versatile.

    John

    40' Crown bus with 2kW of tiltable panels on the roof:

    Eight Sharp 255W, two Morningstar TS-MPPT-60, Magnum MS2000, Champion C46540 generator converted to propane, eight golfcart batteries, and maybe a small Exeltech inverter for the fridger.

    Southern California

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Wonder if an engineer could make a little EMP with that much energy...

    $900 at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Frequency-Inverter-Output-Battery-Charger/dp/B01MG2ZJQT/ref=sr_1_3?srs=7490851011&ie=UTF8&qid=1480346205&sr=8-3&keywords=inverter

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Would be interesting to see a review/testing.  If it actually ever ships.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    The latest auction just ended and the lucky fool who won paid $202.50 for this little gem. Not bad for a 15,000 watt pure sine wave inverter.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    UPS showed up this morning with a 12 volt 3000 watt pure sine wave from Power Jack. I reported it lost/stolen exactly two weeks ago. It was delivered to a different address as it turned out. It *looks* just fine. My plan is to do cabin solar installs where the cabin is used a few weeks/year and the customer is on a budget. We...shall...see.

    I've had many businesses. Some made money for years and years. Others did little more than provide an exciting learning experiment. Most people start off kind of cheap. Otherwise....not many would take a chance on them.

    One way to look at it; If a $500 inverter lasts 1/2 as long as a $1200 inverter....is it a terrible deal? The board is mostly solar pros. The stones will be thrown...no doubt.

    Sometimes I buy the best.....sometimes the cheapest. Sometimes both for comparison etc.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • animattanimatt Solar Expert Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Half price for half life is not so bad. Quarter pricee for tenth of life is a bit different. But still maybe acceptable to some.
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    animatt said:
    Half price for half life is not so bad. Quarter pricee for tenth of life is a bit different. But still maybe acceptable to some.
    Without reviews to consider, it is an unknown to most. It sure is heavy. A lot of companies start off cheap....then rise prices if able.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
    #15
    Their chart indicates that the LF-PSW-15000 is actually rated between 3,000 watts to 5,000 watts continuous.
    Given the size and weight of the toroid transformer, the 3KW - 5KW values are reasonable.

    Also, there are two (+) and two (-) connectors for the 24 Volt battery.
    3,000 Watts / 24 Volts / 2 pair = 60 Amps each pair using very short length of 4 AWG wire (minimum)
    This value is also reasonable.

    I think ...
    3,000 Watts continuous
    5,000 Watts surge

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016 #16
    The transformer is gigantic...as is the inverter. It weighs over 150 pounds as memory serves. Having two sets of connectors is interesting. This is what they say....one set is for the inverter. The other set is for charging the battery....there is a battery charging mode. I would always use 4/0 when dealing with wattage over 3000.

    I suspect the designing engineer meant a 5,000 watt load with a 15,000 watt surge capacity. Then the marketing folks turned that into a "15,000" watt inverter with a surge that I'm not going to grace. Clearly the marketing folks decided to employ bikini babes for their advertisements. Though that does help convey the size of the units.

    I have the 3000 watt unit by the way. It looks just fine and has good heft. For periodic, seasonal use I think the unit may suffice.

    What equipment is needed to test the quality of an inverters sine wave? That would be interesting equipment to have access to. They can all make various claims. What seems to matter is longevity, efficiency, and the quality of sine wave. 

    Trump & Co are gearing up for a battle with China I think. He may win. He may not. Could be a decent time to have a spare until things settle down.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    I'd like to see this chart you are referring to. The listing I am looking at shows 15,000 watts continuous and 60,000 watts, surge. Can you post this? or point us to it?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    I said "suspect....".  Did that convey "chart"?

    Does anyone believe the 60,000 watt surge claim? An engineer *might* be able to make a tiny EMP if they had access to that kind of energy... Though I have no idea what a tiny EMP would be good for....or even if it is possible.

    A 15,000 watt surge would be pretty incredible. One could *conceivably* power a good sized well pump.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Softdown, If you look at the timing of our posts you will see we submitted them a minute apart. I was questioning mvas's post

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #20
    I think my XW-6048 can manage a 15Kw surge for a couple seconds.   A 60Kw surge rating is most likely fraudulent.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    littleharbor2 said:
    Softdown, If you look at the timing of our posts you will see we submitted them a minute apart. I was questioning mvas's post
    Ah well...thanks for the explanation. Didn't know I had a "storm in that harbor".....and we don't.

    Without knowing mvas's background, I'll choose to leave his/her insight, more or less, alone.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016 #22
    littleharbor2 said:
    I'd like to see this chart you are referring to. The listing I am looking at shows 15,000 watts continuous and 60,000 watts, surge. Can you post this? or point us to it?
    The chart is in the ad.
    The chart shows a habitual pattern of significantly lower "actually" Watts vs the insane "Marketing" watts.

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  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016 #23
    softdown said:
    The transformer is gigantic...as is the inverter. It weighs over 150 pounds as memory serves. Having two sets of connectors is interesting. This is what they say....one set is for the inverter. The other set is for charging the battery....there is a battery charging mode. I would always use 4/0 when dealing with wattage over 3000.

    I suspect the designing engineer meant a 5,000 watt load with a 15,000 watt surge capacity. Then the marketing folks turned that into a "15,000" watt inverter with a surge that I'm not going to grace. Clearly the marketing folks decided to employ bikini babes for their advertisements. Though that does help convey the size of the units.

    I have the 3000 watt unit by the way. It looks just fine and has good heft. For periodic, seasonal use I think the unit may suffice.

    What equipment is needed to test the quality of an inverters sine wave? That would be interesting equipment to have access to. They can all make various claims. What seems to matter is longevity, efficiency, and the quality of sine wave. 

    Trump & Co are gearing up for a battle with China I think. He may win. He may not. Could be a decent time to have a spare until things settle down.
    My 3,000 Watt GTI has a toriod transformer about the same size and my GTI weighs just over 100 lbs. 
    They give the dimension of their box and therefore the size of toriod in the photo is not difficult to estimate.
    Numbers like ... 3,000 watts to 5,000 watts are reasonable when compared to similar equipment.
    Contrary to the insane Watts they advertise, I conservatively rate this inverter at 3KW to 5KW.

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  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #24
    mvas said:
    littleharbor2 said:
    I'd like to see this chart you are referring to. The listing I am looking at shows 15,000 watts continuous and 60,000 watts, surge. Can you post this? or point us to it?
    The chart is in the ad.
    The chart shows a habitual pattern of significantly lower "actually" Watts vs the insane "Marketing" watts.


    Sorry but I fail to see it. I found a warning chart showing limits for different appliances. Still I see an ad for a 15,000 watt inverter with a 60,000 watt surge rating.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #25
    60Kw at 48V is going to be 1,250 amps.   Sure,  What cable is going to work with that ?

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
    Everyone agrees that the 60,000 watt claim is likely ludicrous. It is a 24 volt inverter by the way.

    A 750 mcm cable could possibly handle the voltage for several seconds? As memory serves....that cable has almost four times the mass of a 4/0 cable.

    What kind of cable are used on electric chairs? They have to be huge.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #27
    FWIW....it is not difficult to get 1000 mcm copper cable. Diameter 1.32"....for when you need serious power?
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 3,201 ✭✭✭✭
    #28

    softdown said:
    FWIW....it is not difficult to get 1000 mcm copper cable. Diameter 1.32"....for when you need serious power?

    Just a comment on the Ampacity of cables;
    The NEC Ampacity at 75 C for 1000 MCM cable is about 545 A.  As cable diameters become larger,  the increase in Ampacity becomes ever smaller with increases in the cross-sectional area of the cable,  as seen in this older NEC Table:
    http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/NEC AMPACITIES.pdf

    Realizing that surges are,  by definition,  short-duration events ...

    The ratings of this inverter seem far-fetched,  especially at 48 V.

    One way to increase Ampacity with larger cables is to use multiple conductors,  which IS permitted in the NEC for larger diameter cables.

    FWIW,   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #29
    My suspicion leans towards being a 5000 watt inverter with a realistic surge of, maybe, 12,000 watts. Depends on how long the surge was needed for. It does weigh over 150 pounds. Some of us may be underestimating it.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,327 admin
    #30
    A Tesla is running the AC motor at ~300 VAC and 1,000 amps (I think)?

    https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/at-what-voltage-does-the-model-s-motor-work.13668/

    Drop the bus voltage to 24 volts--The current goes way up...

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭✭
    #31
    BB. said:
    A Tesla is running the AC motor at ~300 VAC and 1,000 amps (I think)?

    https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/at-what-voltage-does-the-model-s-motor-work.13668/

    Drop the bus voltage to 24 volts--The current goes way up...

    -Bill

    Glad to see an EE stop in. Can such a large inverter be used to create a very small EMP? I might do a search but that would likely put me on a list or two. My curiosity and convictions are already pretty compelling to the Thought Cops.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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