Solar Systems and EMF's/EMR

helkathelkat Registered Users Posts: 2
Hi,

How can solar companies gauge solar usage without the use of a smart meter? I have a medical condition and need to try and drastically reduce my exposure to EMF's. We've removed our smart meter and while the electric company says they could read the usage on their end, our solar company says they can't energize the panels without the smart meter. I have a couple of resources for protection if I have no other choices (but always open to resources), but I'd really rather not have the smart meter at all. Any thoughts? TIA.
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,015 admin
    Prior to smart meters--My utility had meters that simply had to be read by a person (once per month)--Or in some cases, utilities would have a person read the meter themselves and send the data in (with spot checks by employee?).

    Technically, the utility could fit a non-remote reading (RF based) meter with a direct read... However, it is up to the utility if they want to do that (or if the PUC makes them do it).

    In California, the PUC and Utilities have gone and made some pretty complicated rate plans (time of day, tiered energy usage/generation, seasonal, etc.). And there may not be any manual meters that can meet California Public Utility Commission approved rate plans.

    There was a push to allow for manual read meters--And there are some setup fees attached. Here is a 36 page letter describing the program:

    http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/tm2/pdf/GAS_3568-G.pdf?WT.mc_id=Vanity_smartmetertariff

    For PGE, the cost of the manual read meter is >$400 ($75 setup feesand 3 year $10 per month fee).

    Perhaps your PUC/Utility can help with this?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • helkathelkat Registered Users Posts: 2
    What's PUC?
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,657 ✭✭✭✭✭
    helkat said:
    What's PUC?

    Public Utilities Commission (I think)
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,015 admin
    Yes, Public Utilities Commission. Most (all?) states have a department that writes regulations and controls how utilities (electricity, gas, telephone) operate in the state. Utilities usually have to operate under these rules and cannot deviate.

    If the rules say that you need a smart meter to run GT solar--Then the utility cannot make an exception for a few customers.

    Are you in the Phoenix Az area? For the most part, electric companies only allow GT solar because their state requires them to allow customers to install these systems. More and more, utilities are pushing back against allowing GT solar to be installed and the rate plans are being changed to make GT solar less economically viable (removing subsidies). So, each company has different requirements (state by state differences, and some smaller utilities/co-ops may not allow at all). And they will, probably, not be very helpful for one-off / non-standard installations.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,509 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2016 #6
    Just an idea from someone who hasn't studied EMFs much at all. Is there a material that will block the emissions? Aluminum foil...for example?

    Electrical emission fields are real and easily measurable. As is always the case, sensitivities will vary from individual to individual.

    Scientists have made emission radiating apparatus that produced depression when used for extended periods. It was a war time experiment. Doubtless still used on occasion.

    There are all kinds of emissions. People probably don't need to run around unplugging everything. Though I do wonder at the overall health of the Amish...who do not use electricity inside the home.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,015 admin
    Faraday cage works well.... It can be a metal "can", or some sort of screen (copper wire or other metal grid).

    One of the questions is what frequency of RF radiation is the person susceptible too... The problem has been--It seems to be difficult to figure out the difference between physical and physiological effects.

    DC to daylight (the whole electromagnetic spectrum) is hard/expensive to shield against. Stopping microwave (over 1 GHz) in a room is pretty easy. Stopping 60 Hz is more difficult.

    And you need to know the radiation levels you are trying to obtain. If you live in a major urban area--A well designed system (say a personal computer designed to FCC Class A, 30 MHz and above) will be hard to see above the ambient/background noise levels if you are more than 10-30 feet away.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,015 admin
    As I understand for the Amish--It is a choice that they make to have a life that is not distracting from living a religious life (I am not speaking for the Amish--Just my limited understanding).

    Communities have made choices on what is acceptable or not (solar calculators, yes. A phone (or computer?) in a different building, sure).

    The extent that they go to such as using a Diesel motor powering an air compressor and bringing lines into the shop/home (air powered tools to even an air powered blender)--I see downsides such as Diesel particulates (lung disease), fuel spills, and noise (hearing losses)--I would make different choices.

    This a church/community elder set of choices--And has been updated over the years/centuries.

    Their health--Sometimes better but because they are exposed to "dirt" and stuff (working around animals) that seems to strengthen their immune system and reduce their allergies.

    -Bill "don't know--just guessing" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,509 ✭✭✭✭
    Plus the Amish tend to get lots of exercise, eat healthier foods, don't drink/smoke/ do drugs, and tend to avoid ultra high stress white collar environments. I would also guess that they tend to steer away from hospitals, an exceedingly dangerous place to be.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    EMF is electromotive force, has nothing to do with radiation, there seems to be some confusion, it is a calculation of how many electrons flow between two differences in potential, something like 1A at 1 V equals 6.24x 10 to the power of 18 electrons per second, been a long time since I was at school so correct me if I'm wrong. Electrical radiation is a different subject not to be confused wit EMF.

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,509 ✭✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    EMF is electromotive force, has nothing to do with radiation, there seems to be some confusion, it is a calculation of how many electrons flow between two differences in potential, something like 1A at 1 V equals 6.24x 10 to the power of 18 electrons per second, been a long time since I was at school so correct me if I'm wrong. Electrical radiation is a different subject not to be confused wit EMF.

    EMF may also stand for electromagnetic fields.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Google it first please.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Try "EM Smog" as a search term.  That covers whole spectrum  of emissions.  
    You could probably build a shield out of some metal sheets over the interior of the house behind the meter.  But you have to know what frequencies you want to attenuate and design for that.  Mu metal, aluminum foil, copper screen, sheet steel, all work differently, at different thicknesses, at different frequencies.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,509 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2016 #14
    mcgivor said:
    Google it first please.
    I did. For example:

    EMF

    abbreviation

    Medical Definition of EMF

    1. 1electromagnetic field

    2. 2electromotive force

    There are many others...........

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Back on track, there are various methods used for the communication of smart meters, early versions used modems, others are IP based and the trend now is moving towards the mesh system whereby each meter communicates with other meters, so unlike cellular networks there is no large antenna creating cells for communication. During the past few years I was involved in the change of met rering in commercial applications from old data logging equipment using dial up modems to the new mesh communication smart meters and up links for gas meters, so do have some hands on experience.
     
    Avoiding the harmful effects of such emissions, if they are harmful, is futile, there are so many emitters in the world we live in, cellular, radio, television, wi fi, ham radios, two way radios, the list goes on and on. In order to avoid most of these, other than living in a metal cage, would be to move to an island in the middle of the Pacific, that might shield you to some degree but then there is weather radar and solar radiation to worry about. 


    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,509 ✭✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:
     
    Avoiding the harmful effects of such emissions, if they are harmful, is futile, there are so many emitters in the world we live in, cellular, radio, television, wi fi, ham radios, two way radios, the list goes on and on. In order to avoid most of these, other than living in a metal cage, would be to move to an island in the middle of the Pacific, that might shield you to some degree but then there is weather radar and solar radiation to worry about. 


    Some of us will beg to differ. There is a big difference when potential levels and potential harm are considered. A little arsenic is good for us. A lot of arsenic is a different story. The internet was not wireless until pretty recently. Cell phones were mostly found in Star Trek. Ham and two way radios are a very small market. Largely true with "the list that goes on and on." Mankind has had centuries to adapt to weather and solar radiation, if such adaptation were necessary.

    Pretty recent saturations of wi fi, cellular, and now the burgeoning network of smart meters. Too early to document concrete side effects. The "mental health" of the developed world is changing. Time may tell us more about the causes and effects.

    It is generally a good idea to be wary of possible side effects. Having read the biography of Robert Oppenheimer, I believe  there were scientists with grave concerns about the lingering effects of atomic radiation. Those voices were silenced in the rush to introduce the latest technology.

    Dropping mega tonnage of bombs on Iraq's infrastructure seemed like a terrific idea to some. The side effect was mixing drinking water with sewage and consequent insanity. Hence....ISIS and other terrorists groups operating with no logic whatsoever. For 23 years my business name has essentially been water.

    Side effects...should always be studied with sincerity.


    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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