Choosing a good generator

Brock

I totally agree that you need to be very careful, I have two smoke detectors, 1 optical detectors and 2 CO detectors, they are all tied in to our whole house alarm and I can see the level on the meters as to CO as well as what the optical is seeing.

The guy I had weld on the flange insisted on pressure testing it afterwards knowing it was going to be in an attached garage, but he got the welding right the first time.  Our home is newer and I had them double layer the firewall sheet rock between the house and garage as well as getting higher rated fire doors between the garage and house.

Honestly I am more worried about the stored fuel (5 gallons of gas) and the van (gas) than anything else.  The wagon is a 2003 TDI diesel and the third vehicle is a Nissan Leaf.

mike95490

inMichigan said:

.... The reason for taking DC is that when my Radians are fed by the generator, the generator has to take on the full load of the house, this drives the AC generator to be as large as the typical peak, instead of sized to the average.  ...

This may not be  true, it's not true for my 6 yr old XW inverter.  I tell it what the load the genset can supply, and it won't load the genset beyond that point.  Any higher power requirements are handled by the inverter when it switches to generator assist mode, and adds battery power to cover the large load (toaster, microwave, well pump) when the load reduces, the inverter switches back to charging.  I have run my place for 2 rainy days off a Honeywell 2000w inverter generator. Fridges, pumps, lights.  I'd be surprised if the Radian does not offer something like that,
(my peak loads, about 4Kw, average 250w)

new2PV

Its interesting that the XW still disqualify's my generator on starting large loads even with gen support enabled. I think its due to the eco-throttle mode, I will have to make some kind of set up to keep the eco throttle on, but not all the time.

SilverB

Tip to anyone in a really cold climate (avoid larger Honda EU series Gensets)
I currently own two Gens, a 3 year old Yamaha EF7200DE (has always been reliable, always starts even at -45, only con is its loud and my washing machine doesnt like i)
My other is a 4month old Honda EU7000is, great on gas, smooth and quiet, easy to service, but USELESS when below -20*C, 10 times in 2 months Ive had to go out at 8am and drag the Yamaha out of storage because the Honda either wouldnt start (hear the starter relay click but thats it), or would pop starter fuses because of too much resistance to turn over engine. The Honda is also out of the wind in a lean to I built for it with a battery tender on it. The Yamaha sits in an open tarp garage in the dirt.

If anyone wants a 4 month old Honda still with Warranty and a lifting ring, plus a pre wired auto start plug for Magnum AGS, let me know (only 138hrs) Oil changed back on when manual says using Honda oil. Im buying another Yamaha.

westbranch

SilverB, I had some trouble getting my 3000i started this winter after sitting for ~ 2 months, just too damn cold  at -25 to want to start.. (Note to self, put 5W oil in for winter).  then battery ran down..  @$%*%#...  turned it around so I could access the starter cord properly, 2nd pull it started...  My 2006 Quads are the same, even with priming & choke, anything under -20 and they resist ...  Did you try the ripcord?
I have deduced that the battery output on Honda's when good and cold is not strong enough to give a good spark AND turn the engine over..

mike95490

For my subaru diesel genset, I abandoned the wimpy 20ah recommended starter battery, and wired in a regular group 24 size marine battery.

SilverB

westbranch said:

SilverB, I had some trouble getting my 3000i started this winter after sitting for ~ 2 months, just too damn cold  at -25 to want to start.. (Note to self, put 5W oil in for winter).  then battery ran down..  @$%*%#...  turned it around so I could access the starter cord properly, 2nd pull it started...  My 2006 Quads are the same, even with priming & choke, anything under -20 and they resist ...  Did you try the ripcord?
I have deduced that the battery output on Honda's when good and cold is not strong enough to give a good spark AND turn the engine over..

My problem is not hard starting, its that the batteries in the Larger EU's are VERY undersized, meaning when the battery gets cold it no longer has enough power to turn the starter, which leads to my AGS trying to start it over and over, until it registers it as a fault with the auto start.

And the battery isnt going dead from sitting, I can run the gen for 5 hours the night before, but if it drops below -20 the next morning it wont even crank, I have to unhook it from my system, pull it out, open all panels and let my radiant kerosene heater warm it up before it will crank. Meanwhile my Yamaha, which is equipped with a proper battery cranks even down to -45. Also, the pull cord wont work when hooked to the auto start system, because the dummy plug they put on the remote control plug, has a jumper wire that is used as part of the starter wiring (dumbest idea ever), so with the dummy plug removed, the regular starter button/pull cord dont function (pulled it over about 30 times before I learned that.

This was the first time I tried a Honda Generator, and Its just been headaches (even though I know their reputation is great and they USUALLY make good products), so back to Blue it is. Everything else I own will start at those temps no problem from my grizzly, to even my Mahindra tractor which is a diesel and I dont use a block heater. So I consider this a HUGE design flaw on Hondas part, when $2 in extra plastic and they would have had room for a good sized battery.

Ps: I always run 5W in it (I dont run it in the summer, more than enough solar power)

SilverB

mike95490 said:

For my subaru diesel genset, I abandoned the wimpy 20ah recommended starter battery, and wired in a regular group 24 size marine battery.

I thought of this but because the casing must be closed for proper cooling, I would need to drill holes through the case to run the battery wires through, which would void my warranty. Im not willing to do that on a $5000 generator that has 2.5 years of warranty left. Also it shouldnt be needed, especially when Honda has the balls to put a big "cold weather technology" sticker across the side of it.

westbranch

That plug is a real balz up, eh!

A careful re-read pointed out to me that there is no reference to STARTING...  just running!

"Cold Climate Technology"
Exclusive to Canada. Honda's industry leading "Cold Climate Technology" is specifically designed for our cold Canadian winters. Our exclusive breather heater system helps keep the crankcase ventilation tube free of ice formation and helps prevent generator shutdown.

Makes one wonder what  are  the other things that HELP keep it running?

new2PV

My Eu7000is  wont' start under -8C, the starter goes clunk then theXW AGS faults.  I dont know if its a battery problem or not, it starts after a few tries though, so I can;t see it being a battery issue. WHen it starts it is like its loaded up with fuel.

westbranch

new2PV, does it start like that when you start it by hand or with the AGS retrying? Too much choke? They are a bit adjustable...

new2PV

It has electric start and when I push the button after the AGS fails, I re-install the jumper plug and it starts.  It also will start on the AGS after the 3-5 attempts.  Its fuel injected it still has a choke?

westbranch

OOPs , mine (3000) has a manual choke... but there has to be something (electronic?)  that increases the amount of fuel to start the engine manual or injected...and at the same time it shouldn't be getting too much fuel injected... When you shut it down do you have the ECO switch on or off...  our dealer recommends you run it OFF for a minute or 2 before shutting it down and starting it with ECO off...

You said the starter goes clunk. Do you mean that it does not crank the engine or stops suddenly?

ADD: have you looked at page 76 of the manual, there may be something there too...

mcgivor

new2PV said:

It has electric start and when I push the button after the AGS fails, I re-install the jumper plug and it starts.  It also will start on the AGS after the 3-5 attempts.  Its fuel injected it still has a choke?

Starter solenoid contacts may be burnt and not always making contact, hense the clunk but no start, check battery voltage on both sides to verify they are in fact good.

new2PV

I was standing in front of it once after the ags start command and it made a clunk. The engine did not make any sound like it was spinning and then the ags faulted. waited a few minutes then it cranked on the 2 nd attempt and started. It starts everytime just not when its cold outside. I have the eco throtltle always in on position.

westbranch

That sounds like the starter bendix is not engaging properly... can you locate it so that you can watch it while someone else tries to start, may need lubrication.

Estragon

My little 2000 gets hard to start near freezing, and won't start at all below around -5c. This has been the case ever since I bought it. It starts fine at warmer temps, so I don't even try starting it now without warming it first. 

I wonder if there's something in the way Honda approaches the engineering trade-offs, or maybe there's somewhere in the air or fuel paths prone to condensation that freezes?

BB.

Interestingly, carburetor icing (while the gasoline engine is running under load) is a problem around 60-70F in humid climates. Lots of moisture and pressure drop/fuel vaporizing can cause ice very nicely (30-40F temperature drop in carb).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor_icing

The typical solution was to draw warm air from the exhaust system and bring it to the carburetor intake.

The eu2000i (family?) has an option/retrofit from Honda that heats the crankcase breather (to inlet manifold) to prevent icing in cold weather (once it is running).

Not sure why some gasoline generators are hard to start when sub freezing, and others are not... The way the fuel is vaporized (or not) in the carburetor during starting?

-Bill

Estragon

Interesting about the carb icing.  Makes sense if you think about it - same principle as a fridge evaporator, but mixing with ambient humidity.

The air intake is so short on the eu2000i that I can see how it might help to warm up more via the crankcase breather.  Mine seems to run okay in cold (-20c) weather once it warms up, it just won't start cold.  I try to avoid running much of anything under -25c - everything just gets brittle and prone to breakage.

Maybe this is a factor?

Honda GX100 is apparently used in current eu2000i, and has a bore x stroke of 56x40mm

According to wikipedia:
"An engine is described as oversquare or short-stroke if its cylinders have a greater bore diameter than its stroke length, giving a bore/stroke ratio greater than 1:1."
...
"The large size/width of the combustion chamber at ignition can cause increased inhomogeneity in the air/fuel mixture during combustion, resulting in higher emissions."

Does it follow from this that the mixture could be either too lean and too rich in different parts of the chamber to ignite properly at low temps?

jonr

I expect that it has limited ability to enrich the mixture.  Starting fluid would fix that.  So would taking it inside for awhile.

As Bill says, icing is a mild, not cold weather problem.

dogdude

Firman generators?

This is such a good old thread that I thought I would post my new inquiry here rather than start a new one. I've seen Firmans for sale locally for a surprisingly low price. Apparently they are made by Sumec in China and were previously a supplier to other manufacturers before marketing their own brand.

There isn't alot of info available yet in terms of reviews but they seem on par with Champions, meaning good "for the price". I'm considering one for use when my Honda eu2000 is too small for the task at hand.

Do any of you have experience with or opinions of these new Firmans?

Susido

One of my Honda eu2000i generators just died (after a good long life) and I decided to replace both of them with a Firman 3650/4500 watt generator. So no more inverter generator tech for me but the added noise and weight won't bother me (in fact might be a benefit) and the new cost is likely less than the repair cost of the broken Honda. Battery and remote start is appealing.

Firman is a huge vertically integrated generator manufacturer though pretty new to the North American market under their own name. I haven't received mine yet but hopefully it works well in the coming winter.

Freewilley

I have had the same Firman 3650/4500 for a few months. I have a about 5 hours on it and it has been great.
The reviews online were great.
I bought it as a backup as Lowes shot out an email sale for a one day 1/2 price. I paid $285 Canadian which was a huge bargain in Canada. Just a great deal and I like the generator fine.

bearqst

I have 2 Honda EU2000, a Generac 5500, and a Blackhawk 7000. I try and use the Honda's as much as I can for fuel efficiency. It's 3 trail miles to our cabin, so hauling fuel is a big issue, more so in the summer than winter when the mud holes are frozen. I have discovered that the Honda's need to be in an enclouseur in the winter as the intake frosts up. Other then that I have 5000 hrs on one and about 100 on the other and they run great. The Blackhawk is my main unit to charge our batteries as it has a 240 and the Honda's don't.

Porschephanatic

mtdoc said:

Re: Choosing a good generator

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Part of the nice thing with a inverter with gen support is being able to run these big loads with a small generator. But don't scrimp on generator surge capacity if you intend to use this type of setup, because it won't work. If your generator gets spit off and the inverter has to take over the full load, the power will go out.
--
Chris

I don't have extensive experience with this but I have tested it with my eu2000, GVFX3648 and 1 hp septic pump. The septic pump is 240V and run off my single GVFX inverter with an Outback PSX 240 auto transformer. It has a very high inrush current - cant remember exactly how high - (I did measure it once) . While running , it draws about 15 amps at 120 V from the inverter.

With one of my eu2000is running through my Midnite epanel/gvfx3648 set up, supplying a couple of hundred watts of baseline loads and supplying the battery charger at 10 amps 120 VAC , the load support kicks in to support the septic pump load just fine without kicking off the generator- as long as eco-mode is off, With eco mode on the generator gets kicked off (but the inverter continues just fine - no lights out).

Again - no extensive experience but just a test I recently did and it worked! I've heard others say it works well for them as well. So of course YMMV. And Chris your situation of running an electric range, dryer or other very large loads is of course a different beast requiring larger inverter and generator. I think for your average situation with an occasional surge load that exceeds a small generators ability, it can work just fine with these GVFX inverters.

 What a great thread!  An epiphany, and I have to read this one through to the end.   

Porschephanatic

basewindow said:

Re: Choosing a good generator

Just thought I'd add my 2cents worth to the forum and for those interested in my Generator experience.

I purchased an Ebay Chinese 4kw Generator, XG SF 4000 Advanced Silent Inverter apparently made by Fuji Micro, with remote, key and pulley start for $800au.

Attachment not found.
It was a bit of pot luck as to what I was going to get, but I figured, for what I was going to use it for and at that price it was worth a gamble.

My use was going to be mainly to power my tools while I was building and once the shed solar was up and running, to charge the batteries through a 3 stage charger, if the batteries ever needed it.

It arrived in timely fashion, from an Australian supplier, well boxed, with all the required tools (though basic) and spare spark plug and loosely translated Chinese instructions. It didn't ship with oil, but the digital display had 50minutes of use recorded. I queried this and they stated it was tested for 50mins before shipping, drained of oil and fluid and sent out. When I put in the oil in there was evidence of previous use. Everything seemed ok.

The supplied battery was of course flat, so pulley start was the only option. It started easily after the 2nd pull and I let it run for about 15minutes. It was reasonably quiet with no load and on 'economy' setting.

As I was at home in the 'burbs' I didn't want to run it too long and annoy the neighbours. I didn't have anything here to put any real load on it anyway.

I put the battery on a trickle charger for 4 hours and gave it a crank again with the remote, it barely turned over a few times before I got the flat battery clicking, so I figured the battery that was shipped was stuffed, which later proved to be true after many attempts of charging.

So after almost two years of use what have the results been?

Well for a start it hasn't let me down yet, or fallen apart or died a horrible death. Yet.

As I said, the battery was stuffed, but after replacing it with a better one, which I removed and kept on charge when not in use, it started by remote or key, 95% of the time, 1st time. Otherwise pulley worked every time.

Noise.
59db at 4m? I doubt it very much, maybe close with no load and on economy, but once you bump up the load, no way. 2400w bar heater makes enough noise to be annoying inside the shack and 7m away. Mounted it a wood generator shed 8m away and inside the shack is not too bad.

Power.
Apparently rated at 4kw, but I've only ever run it at about 3kw and it was working hard and making noise. The maximum time I've ever run it for is about 3hrs continuously.

Fuel
On economy and with a full tank and very little load, I think you would get close to the 6.5hrs (14lt tank)

Servicing and repair
Well who knows? I don't have much faith in the suppliers holding up their two year warranty, but so far it hasn't needed any repairs. I'm sure these machines are mass produced all out of the same factory in China and re-badged, so in theory there should be plenty of parts available. Will I be able to get a local shop to work on it and get the required bits, who knows. I've done the oil and filters and plugs myself.

It's done 65 hours use (In 20 months), and I've replaced the oil once, (it still looked good) and cleaned the filter (Still clean) and spark plug (Still good, but a spare was supplied so I thought I may as well). I keep it inside out of the weather and it has been well looked after.

I usually only get up to the shack twice a month for a couple of days, so it doesn't get much use. Basically it runs the tools, when I'm working and the vacuum. I've used it twice to bulk charge the batteries.

So is it any good? Well for what I've used it for so it's done the job. Will it last? Who knows. For $800 over the $4000+ for an equivalent Honda/Yamaha, I think it's been worthwhile. If I get another 2 or 3 years out of it then I probably can't complain.

I'll let you know…

This is how it was advertised and stats....

The FUJI MICRO XG-SF4000 Model inverter generator has one of the lowest noise ratings - only 59dB at 4 Metres (less than that of common speech even at rated load), and will run for up to 6.5 hours on a single fill of fuel when used with the Economy Switch feature.

Based on HONDA Technology, this impressive generator provides 5.0kVA/4000 watts of power at peak and 3700 watts at normal load and weighs only 55Kg. Inverter technology makes this generator ideally suited for use with sensitive electronics and ALL motorized devices (e.g., Worksite equipment, computers, fax, printer, telephone, stereo, microwaves, compressors, all motorized devices) because the generator produces a clean sine wave of energy that results in no surging. To prevent any possible damage, the unit features an Oil Alert which causes shut down when the oil drops below safe operating level or in the event of being tipped over. The Remote electric start allows the ultimate convenience, where the generator can operate unattended at a distance from the application and can be fired up or shut down at the press of a button.

Features:
* FUJI MICRO 5.0kVA Sinewave Inverter Generator
* Exclusive Digital Screen: Volt, Amperage, Wattage, Running Time, Oil Level
1. Electric Key Start
2. Remote Start
3. Easy Pull Start
* Compact & Lightweight - 2/3 the weight of similar class generators
* High Quality Electrical Output - pure sinewave
* Low Fuel Consumption - 20% less than conventional generators
* Commercial Use Ready
* Fully Portable
* Runs on Normal Unleaded Petrol
* 14 Litre Tank - 7hrs operation
* Australian Standard 240V Weather Proof Outlet
* 12V DC Output Socket
* Low Noise Level for Ultimate Comfort
* Self Charging Battery
* Oil Alert Function
* Full Overload Protection


SPecifications:
Generator
* Model: Digital Inverter/Sine Wave
* Frequency: 50/60Hz
* Max. AC Output Power: 5.0kVA@0.8cos
* Rated AC Output Power (kVA): 3.7/3.7KW
* Rated Voltage: 240V
* DC Output Rated Voltage: 12V
* DC Output Rated Current: 8.3A

Engine
* Model: XG177F
* Type: OHV/Forced-Air Cooling/single Cylinder/4 stroke Gasoline engine
* Displacement: 269cc
* Compression ratio: 9.2
* Engine Speed: 2200-3600rpm
* Ignition Mode: T.D.I
* Recommended Fuel: Unleaded Gasoline
* Fuel Tank Capacity: 14 Litres
* Engine Oil Capacity: 1 Litres
* Starting System: Pulling recoil starting / Electric starting / Remote starting
* Continuous Work Time: 6.5 Hours
* Noise Level: 59db/4m

Standard Features
* Indicator Light: O
* AC Overload Protector: Flow Pattern
* AC Socket: 2 x 240v

This generator still performing well? I'll read on. 

ligwyd

solorone said:

Champion Generac and Kubota.
In 30+ years I have been through a few gentsets. Though they are rather oversized, the Kubota 6500 diesel was a work horse and the head on it was pure quality, but I don't think the cost per KW was very cheap. Parts and upkeep are very very $$ and electronics issues can be hard to diagnose. I had great luck with Generac, currently I have an older GP 5500 with 1500 hours on it that will crank with he first pull, the high hours reflect the end of life of my panels and a 3 year illness, at $550 they almost disposable. I would not go the diesel route again.

Just finished reading the entire post. Now I am considering moving to an area of Canada that gets more sun than where I am now and investing in more Solar Panels and Batteries..... Ha Ha

Besides the higher cost of diesels, I would have thought these would be the top shelf choice generator for off-griders. I'd be interested in hearing more why Solorone, or anyone for that matter, would not go with a diesel? I would think they would start fine in the cold with glow plugs. My initial thought was to buy the best generator possible and never have to buy another one and pass it on when I'm gone.

I have been leaning toward the KS-750 or KS850 for a long time now but have not yet made my final decision to purchase. Sure its pricey at $12,000 CAN but can't really afford not to have power when you need it. I like doing things right the first time if possible.

https://frontierpower.com/products/generator-sets/prime-continuous-power/powerline-generators/kubota-powerline-generator-set/

Estragon

Diesels can have trouble even using glow plugs in the cold with fuel gelling.  This can be overcome to some extent with anti-gelling additives.

When it gets that cold though, pretty much any fuel can have issues (eg LP gas may not boil right - low pressure, crankcase oil gets too viscous), everything gets brittle, etc.

ligwyd

My plan so far is to have the generator in an insulated  20" shipping container with proper ventilation. Depending on manufacturers recommendations, use Synthetic Oil for extended drain interval and hopefully buy winter diesel with fuel additive.

We'll see. Got some more thinking to do before I decide. Appreciate all the different perspectives here.

Estragon

In planning, I'd try to locate the fuel supply tank somewhere with relatively stable day/night temperature (shaded at least, or better yet buried or insulated).  The issue is tank "breathing" daily, and water vapour condensing in the tank.  If the plan was to put the tank in a container with large day/night temp swings, it could be a problem.

Water in the fuel supply not only causes potential for freezing and corrosion in the tank, it promotes microbial growth which can clog filters etc.