Charge controller done

mryimmersmryimmers Posts: 111Solar Expert ✭✭✭
 Out to the bush yesterday and display on charge controller (Rogue MPT3048) was blank, 40 amp breaker to battery bank tripped, UGH. Breaker would not re-set, took front cover off to see if I could see an obvious problem, couldn't see anything amiss. Reinstalled front cover/display and re applied power, a surprisingly loud POP ensued, but it did power up. The display is on and shows battery voltage, but not charging, all values are zero except battery voltage. I took front cover off again and a little square black gizmo attached to the main board had blown apart, a large piece of it laying in the bottom. 
  I really liked this charge controller as it was so simple to set-up and had a lot of standard features. It appears to me that Rogue is no longer in the charge controller business, too bad, I really liked dealing with him. 
 I'm thinking of one of the morningstar TS-MPPTs, not sure which one yet (but 30 amp is all I really need).
510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.

Comments

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,790Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Sadly, Rogue did not have UL certs and just could not penetrate into the market without it,   Maybe they can repair it ?
    The MS-Tristar-MPPT is a solid line (in my opinion) and the 60A has a nifty web server for monitoring things, otherwise you have to buy the additional meter panel.
    Midnight has a couple offerings too, but I don't like their firmware update scheme, and their MPPT algorithm often hangs in varied cloud/sun conditions - i've had to reset my classic several times at night when it was backfeeding panels.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,083Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    The MN KID 30A might be another option ...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,599Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    Mike95490

    I haven't noticed an issue with classic mppt hanging, but maybe I just don't know what to look for. What are the symptoms?

    I couldn't get firmware updating to work at all with any of the supplies cables. It only worked with a short cable I have for a handheld gps unit.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,083Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Estragon, what version of windoze are you using?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,790Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Estragon said:
    Mike95490
    I haven't noticed an issue with classic mppt hanging, but maybe I just don't know what to look for. What are the symptoms?
    I couldn't get firmware updating to work at all with any of the supplies cables. It only worked with a short cable I have for a handheld gps unit.
    Firmware updates have a 10 page manual to configure windows ports for the updater,  not an easy configuration, I use a old laptop with XP for updates.

    When the Classic hangs, it shows power flow at night, and since it only knows Charging, it does not add the - sign in front of the number
    (This was about 9pm, hours after dark, and I use the simple MPPT algorithm )  :

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mryimmersmryimmers Posts: 111Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    I don't want anything too complicated, my system sits unattended a vast majority of the time, so I need something that will just work.
    510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,050Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #8
    mryimmers said:
    I don't want anything too complicated, my system sits unattended a vast majority of the time, so I need something that will just work.
    Then get a Morningstar, nothing complicated, just works as @mike95490 post#2 suggested.
      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • mryimmersmryimmers Posts: 111Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Ya, I'm thinking of the TS-MPPT 60, as I may add a couple panels in the future. The 60 amp has the ethernet connection and I already have a couple CAT5 cables buried from the shed to the cabin as the Rogue used them. The only thing that is holding me back a bit is the awful CAN/US exchange rate, but that is out of my hands.
    510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,660Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Tried to find Marc's site, looks like someone else is using Rogue charge controller name. I'm pretty sure Marc was in Oregon (they are in Colo.). Might check through old listings here. He has a forum ID, send him a personal message and ask about it... I have one of the 1st or 2nd gen ones, I use from time to time. Sorry if he's closed up shop. I don't think he was trying to compete really, just filling a gap as no one was making a 30 amp MPPT type charge controller when he started production. He quit since there were other alternatives and there was less demand.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • mryimmersmryimmers Posts: 111Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Ya, I've looked for his web site and found nothing, I'm assuming he is done with this. I was not going to bother him with it.
    510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,599Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    @mike95490

    Yikes. I don't normally check at night. I'll start. Would using P&O mode be a factor?

    @westbranch

    Firmware updates done with an old laptop, Vista I think or could be XP. The issues I had were apparently all related to cable length. It works fine with the short (~6") cable, but not with any of the (3) longer cables that came with the classics.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,683Super Moderators admin
    Yea, I looked at Marc's (Rogue) old website--It has been taken down and no further information other than using Archive.org to get old website snapshots.

    https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20160916075931/http://www.roguepowertech.com:80/products/chargecontrollers/mppt/mpt2024.htm
    http://www.manta.com/c/mtbt4t0/rogue-power-technologies (possible address and phone number)

    I am very sorry to hear this... Marc was a great guy here and he had very nice products.

    -Bill


    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 634Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #14
    Midnite has updated their update method. No more 10 page exhaustive procedure. I haven't done the update yet, but I did read about it on their site.

    Edit: I checked the Midnite site to be sure, and found that since I now have a windows 10 laptop, I read a different procedure. It appears easier with fewer steps. Windows 7 procedure is still the same. 

    Rick
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,083Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    I did a recent W7 update and once the laptop has been used for an update, it is almost a one-step operation... once the laptop is used for a FW update, the Port is remembered and the new GUI is much simpler, select the unit model and off it goes. 
    Classic was faster  but the MNGP was a lot slower..... The 'give it time' adage still applies!...  don't be in a hurry to close the GUI!!
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge, Hughes1100 Sat Modem
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mryimmersmryimmers Posts: 111Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    I think I am going to go with the TS-MPPT 60, so do I understand this right? With the ethernet connection I can plug the CC into a router  and access the CC over wifi? With an iPhone? (there is no internet at that location)   Or just plug ethernet cable into windows laptop? This would make a remote display unnecessary? I have CAT5 cables already in place. I have a trimetric so I would not be completely in the dark. I'm no computer wiz so keep any explanation simple, thanks
    510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,599Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    My guess is it's designed to be connected to a router and wi-fi. It might work directly with laptop but could need a xover cable.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,790Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    It does work fine, with cable to wifi router and any web browser
     some laptops have a smart ethernet that will auto-switch and you don't need a cross-over cable.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mryimmersmryimmers Posts: 111Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Thanks everyone!!  TS-MPPT 60 is on the way, thanks NAWS!!
    510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.
  • mryimmersmryimmers Posts: 111Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    I've been reading thru the manual for the TS-MPPT 60 and I see what looks like (to me at least) a big difference in charging method from my Rogue MPT-3048. The Rogue, when it went into absorption, operated on end amps (1st) and time (2nd) to determine when to go to float, end amps setting was I think recommended 1% of amp/hr of bank (approx 2.3 amps in my case). If loads kept charge amps from going down to that level, then the time setting would end absorption. As I see it, absorption in the TS-MPPT 60 is only based on time? I've watched videos on doing the custom settings on it too, and see no mention of "end amps" in regards to ending absorption, this will result in my batteries spending much more time in absorption then they did previously I think. 
    510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,599Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    Without something like a Midnite WBjr, or a system with no loads while charging, end amps will just be an approximation anyway. Loads can stop the CC from seeing end amps so absorb times out.

    You might want to set it for 3-4 hours, and on a good solar day check charging (no load) current at 1/2hr intervals after 1.5hrs to see when it gets to 1%C with your Vabs and batteries. It's around 2hrs on my system.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • jonrjonr Posts: 1,029Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #22
    I agree (although maybe 2%)  and I'd set the timeout a little longer than the time you find necessary when you measure.  Ie, better to err on the side of too long absorb than too short.  The default in the TS-MPPT is 3 hours.
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,050Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    mryimmers said:

    I've been reading thru the manual for the TS-MPPT 60 and I see what looks like (to me at least) a big difference in charging method from my Rogue MPT-3048. The Rogue, when it went into absorption, operated on end amps (1st) and time (2nd) to determine when to go to float, end amps setting was I think recommended 1% of amp/hr of bank (approx 2.3 amps in my case). If loads kept charge amps from going down to that level, then the time setting would end absorption. As I see it, absorption in the TS-MPPT 60 is only based on time? I've watched videos on doing the custom settings on it too, and see no mention of "end amps" in regards to ending absorption, this will result in my batteries spending much more time in absorption then they did previously I think. 
    The TS60  MPPT is different, not better or worse, the end amps associated with some other CC is not part of the algorithm, it works on a percentage of duty cycle, associated with time, when the duty cycle falls below 30% for a cumulative time of one hour, float is initiated, depending on loads present, this may not be achieved as the percentage may be held above 30%. Description from Morningstar below.
     
    The duty cycle is used to determine when to transition into float.  The duty cycle is derived from a square waveform and the percentage of time - out of each complete cycle - when current is allowed to flow. Current is regulated by opening and closing the PV-battery circuit -- the essence of a series charge controller. A 50% duty cycle means that current is flowing, and interrupted for, half of the cycle. Our controllers pulse with a frequency of 300 Hz, so each cycle lasts 1/300th of a second. By varying the duty cycle, we can control the average current going into the battery so that the regulation voltage is maintained but not exceeded. As the battery reaches full charge at a particular voltage, it will require less and less current to maintain that voltage and the duty cycle will decrease. The duty cycle will approach zero %, but will never actually get there because losses and battery self-discharge require at least some current to maintain regulation voltage. A Morningstar controller's float transition algorithm waits for the duty cycle to reach 30% or less before starting a one hour timer. When the timer expires, the controller moves from absorption to float voltage. A 30% duty cycle simply means that 30% of AVAILABLE charging current is allowed to pass. Duty cycle is the best measure we have to determine how deep a battery may be in regulation. Factors affecting the accuracy of this method include: 1. Reduced radiation and current. With less available charge current, the duty cycle will inevitably be higher making the transition to float more difficult; 2. Load on the battery. Loads on the battery drain current from the battery which causes a higher duty cycle. If the load is large enough (greater than the amount of solar current ) it can pull the controller into 100% duty cycle and out of absorption - into bulk charging; 3. Aging batteries. Old batteries tend to absorb more current at regulation, keeping duty cycle high. Sulfation leads to higher internal resistance, and more energy loss in the form of heat, which leads to excessive water loss.

      1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider 150 60 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 8×T105 GC 24V nominal 

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,790Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    The new magnum PT-100 has an interesting "Auto-Absorb" time feature,   it records the BULK to Absorb time, and uses that for the countdown Absorb to Float time.   if you use a heavy load, the increased bulk time is used to increase the Absorb time
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 3,886Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Estragon said:
    Without something like a Midnite WBjr, or a system with no loads while charging, end amps will just be an approximation anyway. Loads can stop the CC from seeing end amps so absorb times out.

    You might want to set it for 3-4 hours, and on a good solar day check charging (no load) current at 1/2hr intervals after 1.5hrs to see when it gets to 1%C with your Vabs and batteries. It's around 2hrs on my system.
    There is one thing more that will accurately measure end amps. You probably do not see it but if you had a complete Outback or Schneider system, the Inverter talks with the chargers thru the interface bus and accurately measures end amps along with the  AC load doing the math internally. It is the reason I insist on this for my systems. I really have not had a chance to try a Magnum system but it would be pretty bad if they did not do this also now that they make a CC.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mryimmersmryimmers Posts: 111Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Got the TS-MPPT 60 installed yesterday, was a rainy day so not much charging going on but all seems well. Its on a dip switch pre-set but I'm going to try custom programming today.   :/ ,I'm not so good with windows
    510 watt pv, TS-MPPT 60, Exeltech XP1100, XP600 & XP250 @ 24V, 4x Trojan 105RE, Trimetric 2030, Yamaha EF2400i gen.
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