few questions about solar power....

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  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭

    got my 500watt BOSCA dc to ac inverter... pc/moniotor/modem running sans issues for an hour.. however i imagine i have insufficient solar power traveling to my MPPT to keep up with the 200-250 watts that im pulling RN... which is why i placed an order for an additional 300watt solar panel.. although its physical dimensions indicate nothing above 50 watts.. i doubt China is that far ahead of the game :)

    this particular inverter has a fan in the rear therefore it isnt hot to the touch..


    silly question but.. if most or all inverters have a grounding slot.. where does that go exactly ???there is very little contact between my solar setup... and the ground floor... 

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,595 admin
    edited June 2 #63
    Grouinding has two or three major reasons to "exist".

    First, is if there is a short between a hot wire (+12 VDC or 120 VAC) to the inverter case (as an example), then you want the "case ground" to connect (single point grounding) to the "return leg" of the VDC and/or VAC power. That prevents the case from "becoming" electrically hot and starting fires/electrocuting people. The grounded case provides an electrical return path to pop a fuse/circuit breaker/or internal over current protection circuit in the AC Inverter.

    In the Philippines, I believe that your AC outlets are not polarized and no ground "blade" (the Hot/Neutral/ground wiring is not keyed like US and other countries). This makes grounding and such a bit more of an issue that is not "supported  by code and common practice". Instead, the AC equipment just relies on internal ~2,000 Volt insulation between the AC lines and (for example) your computer DC internal wiring. 

    Second, a path to direct energy from a lightning strike (to your panels, house wiring, etc.) to earth Ground (cold water pipe, grounding rod, etc.). If you live in an area with a good chance of a lightning strike, grounding and surge suppressors are important. Note that a direct strike has more energy than any standard equipment can manage--But suppressors and grounding direct the lightning to "earth" instead of it jumping to phone lines, TV Antennas, computer networks, your AC power lines, etc.

    The other reasons for "ground" are a bit more obscure but include starting florescent tube lights, electronic stove/water heater pilot lights, and other "things".

    This makes your home brew solar system a bit more of an issue to "solve" if you are getting electrical shocks at times. I cannot tell you to do ABC to fix the problem. And any electrical shocks can be indicative of current or future problems.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    k wow that was alot to absorb, although i got got most of that in my basic Tesla engineering class in high school, thank you however....
  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    BB, you have to be one of the most patient people I've ever seen on a forum.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    since i have no clear way of knowing how many watts my panels are actually dumping into my power bank .. IF anything at all.. i just leave the "smart" chinese charger on all day and function my inverter on that power... 
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    https://rumble.com/v4zgo19-june-4-2024.html feel free to observe visually ... 
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    please forgive the celine dion accent, i cannot help where i am from
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    https://rumble.com/v50opsl-your-diagram.html
    voila, a nicely made video on my solar setup, kindly ignore the remarks about "diagram" that is intended for another thread, i of course welcome your criticism.. and the high pitched sound is actually the inverter fan... 
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10 #70
    Pretty much universally agreed, if your controller has any USB plugs on it, it is NOT a real MPPT controller. What is the voltage and current coming into the controller?  I can guarantee the current coming into the controller is the same as what's going out of it. If it were real MPPT it would boost the current, sometimes by multiples of the input current.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    the votage going INTO the mppt  varies between the 4 solar panels.. some 15v.. some 18v.. i thought it was the mppt's job to change it all into a safe 12v to give to the battery...
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    tested the 2 screws of the solar panel symbol.. it read 14.?v these 2 screws have 3 solar panels tied into them... unknown wattage

    and the 2 screws with battery symbol.. 13.2v
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    can i connect more than 1 solar panel to a mppt or a solar charge controller ? or does each solar panel need its own mppt or SCC ??? because at this momement.. 9 minuts to 2100.. i have 3 solar panels to the screw contacts and 1 40 watt in the DC5521 plug.. 
    i figured this is the safest way because a battery should not have more than 1 input power source.. im still learning that is the beautiful part that makes me smile.. 
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    can no one answer my last question ??? 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,595 admin
    Not quite sure I know how to answer your questions... I try not to do a bunch of math that does not exactly relate to a poster's system requirements... It can cause more confusion vs clarity.

    Can you give us a brand/model number/link to your solar charge controller?

    There are a few "rules" that need to be followed to "optimally" connect a varied panel solar array to an MPPT controller.

    Just like you should not connect various A/AA/C/D flashlight batteries in random series/parallel connections to a 12 volt car battery. Things are not going to work out well. From just not "harvesting" optimal energy from the array to actually risk of fire (probably not a big risk with your smaller array).

    We always try to ensure that everyone's system(s) are as safe as possible--However with limited information, it is difficult to give "accurate" answers.

    Having a DC Capable Clamp Current Meter so you can measure current (quickly and safely)--As well as the Volt Meter--Together it is easier to figure out what is going on with your hardware.

    Could you use a low Ohm value resistor and measure the voltage drop across the resistor and get V=I*R / I=V/R type math--Yea--I have done that... But it does not make things quick and easy.

    To even diagnose your panels (working or not, etc.)--Need the label (Voc/Isc/Vmp/Imp/Pmp ratings), or you can do things like measure Voc (voltage open circuit) and Isc (short circuit current in full sun) and figure out if the panels are working at all (there are other tests too--But keep things simple for now).

    When we know more about the panels and charge controller, can then help with possible configuration and functional questions.

    The problem with "random" solar hardware--It can be difficult to get the mix and match to make a system that operates anywhere near optimally. Very common that some things (I.e., miss-matched panels) will not play together well.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    of course, the only thing written on my SCC is MPPT SOLAr charge controller
    nothing more.. on the top there is a sticker, i will post a photo...
    http://ibb.co/k4p1N9h
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,595 admin
    Photo of solar charge controller does not really help much.

    At this point, you need to measure the Voc (voltage open circuit) of each solar panel--Roughly, each panel should be Voc~20-22 VDC in sunlight. You can connect each solar panel in parallel with the others, up to 360 Watt solar array total.

    If you do not have the panel mfg's labels (specifications), I guess you could go with a tape measure of you solar array total area using this rough calculation:

    Panel square meters = (x*y) of each panel solar cell area + Panel 2 + panelxxx = total array area
    Rough array max power = Total Array Area (in sq meters) * 1,000 Watts per sq-meter * 0.15 panel eff

    This will give you a very rough idea of your solar array max power output.

    If you can measure the array DC current--Then the max output current of the array would be:

    Pmp = Vmp * Imp
    Imp-array = Pmp / Vmp = 360 Watts / 18 VDC = 20 Amp max array output for your controller

    If you measure 12.5 AmpDC Isc from your array (in full noon-time sun, clear day, panels pointed at sun, that is a good start.

    Connecting panels all in parallel does not make optimum usage of your "MPPT" solar charge controller--But at least will work without damage/major issues.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    you are correct my California buddy.. but i am simply working with what ive got and what my finances allow me to get... 
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    i did peak at my 4$ multimeter and i do see the omega symbol.. if memory serves.. that is ohms correct ?
    just looked it up.. omega and ohms symbol is identical... please give me safe and easy to follow instructions that do not involve me sticking anything into a wall socket :)
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    i was asked on another forum to climb onto the roof that i use to place my panels and take a photo of underneath my largest panel, i will try to find it... 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,595 admin
    You are correct about the Omega/Ohm symbol... However you would not use that setting for basic Voc/Isc checks.

    Since your meter is an AC current clamp DMM, you cannot use the AC Ampere function on this meter. You are pretty much left with the DC Voltage readings of the array/solar panel voltages. Voc (voltage open circuit--panel not connect) and Varray (voltage of the array when you panel(s) are connected.

    Usually it is not very easy to measure voltages on connected arrays--You have to open connection (unplug MC4 connectors/etc.) or other methods to measure the voltages.

    A single panel is usually pretty safe--But if you are on a ladder and accidentally short several panels/array--The spark(s) (or shock) my knock you have the ladder if you are not careful.

    This is stuff that I/we cannot really train you about via a text forum/posts. There are lots of YouTube videos out there that can help--But finding specific help on measuring a "random" solar array setup--May not be easy to find or be that useful.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    oh no.. the meter that has ohms on it is not the clamp meter.. its another a regular multimeter that i purchased for 4-5$.. im sorry for the confusion.. 
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    did see a clamp meter at a hardware store today but all the floor staff were clueless to tell me if it was for AC or DC the only one that spoke a lick of english had difficulties putting in the 9v rectangular battery.. i hate this generation :/ 
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    i have 3 panels going into the + and - of the solar panel symbol into the mppt.. and 1 going into the DC5521 port on the right.. im just wondering if all 4 panels which arent identical are accumulatively putting 50 watts each into the mppt and further into the power bank.. totalling 200 watts or did i miss a class in Edisson day.. or Tesla day.. whoever invented DC and 50watts x 4 does not mean im getting 200 watts... ???.. this science does not compute... 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,595 admin
    Typically ("at best"), your solar panels would output around 50% to 77% to the battery bank on an average to very good solar day (cool, clear, dust free panels, etc.) into a battery bank (typically at 80% or less State of Charge--Especially for Lead Acid type batteries)...

    If the batteries are >80% SoC (for Lead Acid), the batteries typically reduce the amount of charging current they will accept. The solar panel specifications are "laboratory" numbers... I.e., at Room Temperature and only a few seconds of "artificial sunlight). As panels become hot (under "real sun"), the Vmp falls, and Pmp=Vmp*Imp falls too (to roughly 82% of Vmp/Pmp of "factory numbers" on very hot day/noon time sun).

    Note that the % numbers below are based on Battery Bank (lead acid) bank AH capacity... I.e., a 200 AH battery bank at 10% rate of charge is 20 Amps.

    Bulk (or Boost) stage charging for a solar charge controller => maximum available solar current to battery bank (typically 10% to 25% of battery bank AH capacity)
    Absorb stage charging => From 100% to less than 5% as the Soc goes from 80% to near 100% SoC
    Float charging => From 2% to less than 1% charging current at 100% SoC

    The outputs of solar panels is highly dependent on actual conditions... More or less Vmp-real=0.82*Vmp-std on a hot day (sort of worst case).

    Imp=Amount of solar irradiance on panels. Full noon time sun, panel pointed at sun, clear day (no dust, humidity) equals approximately 1,000 Watts per Sq Meter... A solar panel can harvest about 15% of that energy into electricity.

    Just variations in Solar Irradiance is a major topic in itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_irradiance

    For our needs, just using round numbers (rules of thumbs) is usually "good enough" for us to understand and debug our systems.

    To say that a 50 Watt solar panel is outputting 50 Watts--Is expecting more than it can produce in real life. Again, at best, 50% to 77% of the panel's "rated output" will reach a discharged battery bank. Obviously, the solar harvest drops to 0% output late evening to early morning.

    You may or may not have a true MPPT controller... As you have it connected now (a bunch of solar panels with Vmp~17.5 to 18.0 VDC) is operating (pretty much) in PWM mode.

    A true MPPT controller would "optimally" work with Vmp-array roughly 2x Battery Charging voltage (minimum). Maximum Vpanel input voltage--Need controller specs. (some controller will fail at 60 VDC, others >100 VDC, others yet at 150 VDC, and some at >600 VDC). Without the specs, just don't know what yours requiters (typically as Vpanel voltage rating gets higher, the cost of the MPPT controllers increase too).

    You can put panels in series for "better" MPPT harvest--But need to know the actual panel specs so that you meet the MPPT controller specifications, and the proper panel ratings for series connections (basically Imp of panels have to "match" for a series string).

    Most stores are going to stock AC only current clamp DMMs... 90% of the people out there want to work on 120/240 VAC house circuits.

    AC+DC Current Clamp Meters tend to be more expensive and need a bit more "reading of the manual" to use optimally on DC circuits. Not difficult, but you just need to "zero" DC clamp meter readings before measuring current. AC clamp meters do not need Zeroing for accurate current measurements.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    so.. even all solar panels being from different companies... and different Watt output (i only tested one and got 40.5 watts but it claims to be 300 lol) will all combine and add all the watts they produce together and put that towards the power bank ? or is it some sort of math that i dont understand ???

    im picturing this process as simply as possible.. if 4 pitchers are all pouring into the same  bucket at 1 ml per second each .. the bucket therefore receives 4 ml per second and that is how much is IN the bucket... 
    get it. accumulative ?

    is solar panels the same way ???
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,595 admin
    Again, current is very similar to liters per hour filling a 100 Liter bucket... So the current from each panel will add with each other panel to give you a total Ampere value... But like any water system, you need "pressure" (aka voltage) to fill a bucket that may be 50 feet above on a hill... Too little pressure, no water will flow. Too "much" pressure (voltage) and it is wasted. Yes, you can pump up to 500 feet elevation, but the bucket is at 50 feet.

    Now with a MPPT controller, it can "use" the extra voltage and the current, and take the high voltage & current and efficiently down convert to the lower battery voltage and give a higher charging current.

    At this point, you can have bad panels(s), bad connections, bad wiring, an MPPT controller that is really a PWM controller, running a true MPPT controller at Vmp~18 volts and the MPPT controller really is running in PWM mode, you could have "mismatched" solar panel Vmp voltages, your charge controller thinks the battery bank is near full, etc.

    Don't have enough information to really know what is happening.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    i understand what more information can i provide.. i believe only 2 of my panels have anything written underneath, im trying to find those photos because i dont feel like pulling another evil kanevil and climb onto my roof ever again... 
  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Very good, Bill. I always thought fluids were a good way to explain electricity in general.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
  • corporal_Canada
    corporal_Canada Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
    im sorry it took so long, im still looking for the photo UNDERNEATH THE panels... however i did put a watt meter in place to finally know exactly the amount of wattage im actually getting...
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,595 admin
    I did not see any 400 Watt class panels in this photo... They should be roughly 1m * 1.83m (1.83 sq meters) in size (minimum for a good quality mono-crystalline solar panel). Example of a 400  Watt panel:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/REC_n-peak_3_black_series-DS.pdf

    From the photo, I really cannot figure out the Voc of each panel... Ideally, the Vmp of a panel is 0.5 Vmp per cell * number of cells in series... Typically 36 cells in  series for Vmp~18.0 volts (for a "12 volt" panel)... You can find 60 cell; and 72 cell (in series panels) too--Especially for the larger format panels.

    I would suggest that any panels that are 10% of your largest panel (I.e., 400 Watt * 10% = 40 Watts) is hardly worth the effort to mount/wire/maintain/test/etc. In engineering terms, anything 1/10th or less is usually "near irrelevant). And anything that is 1/2 or larger (I.e., 400 Watts * 1/2 = 200 Watts) is on the "same order" of magnitude--I.e., "makes a significant difference".

    For example, I would suggest that any panels that are (1/2 of 1.83 sq meters) 0.92 sq meters or larger are "worth" pulling off the roof, testing (and measuring Voc/Imp in noon time sun) and documenting what you have. Any panels that are 0.18 meter or smaller, are not really worth working with.

    Once you have the solar panel "specs" (again, round numbers are good enough). Note that a typical DMM with wired Amp function are usually limited to 10 Amps maximum. A 400 Watt panel can output more than 11 amps (or more) in ideal conditions.

    Also note that 400 Watt panels are typically (but not only) around 36/60/72 Volts Vmp. A typical 140 Watt class panel is around 18 volt Vmp... And one of your small panels is around 15 cells (?) which would be Vmp~7.5 volts (and another panel may be a 12 cell or 6 cell panel?).

    I understand that you are trying to do this on a budget... But really need actual panel specs (even Voc and sq meter per panel) would be a big help (sq meter can be converted to Isc/Imp roughly) to configure a "workable" solar array.

    Your 70cm * 45cm panel would (at best) be around 60-68 Watt panel.

    Or are you saying that "all of your panels" add up to ~400 Watts?

    Anyway--Need some basic information to help more.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset