I guess it is Official... Northern California cannot keep the utility power on in sunny/warm weather
Comments
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Sounds to me like California needs to do more logging and turn forest land into goat pasture. Particularly land under power lines and surrounding housing. Cost - less than zero (it would generate income).
I am available for custom hardware/firmware development
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Hey Mike,mike95490 said:
Dave, what is your source for that fuel load chart ? I'd like to use it, but need it's pedigree, because I know someone will call me on it.Dave Angelini said:{ chart }
..........Man (PUC) negotiated all the the contracts with the Utility and the PUC is appointed by the Governor. The blame lays right on this one party state that has a pendulum that fails to swing anymore. ............
It is from a presentation by John R Mount here in Mariposa on how his high Sierra land is regularly maintained for 60 or so trees per acre. He does this by logging and prescribed burns. Three of the endangered species in California thrive there because this is done. The powerpoint is 130 Mb. The research file is 1.3 Mb. I can cloud it for you or upload the research here?
He has a book "torching conventional forestry" the artful application of science.
If you want a bucket list trip up to his place you can look up the Central Sierra Historical Society up at Shaver Lake. The museum may be the only one in the world powered by old time hydro electric. www..SierraHistorical.org
Very cool place to go and it closes with the first snows in November."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
The 2 charts that go well with the other chart are
"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Mike & Dave up here in BC we use a classification system that identifies /names the whole forest into Bio-Geo-Climatic zones. These zones are broken down into Sub-zones, Variant and.Phase If I were to look at those forests you have burning now I suspect they would be very close to our IDF (inteior Douglas fir) or the PP (Ponderosa Pine) BGC Zone. The principle species of each is chosen because they, D.fir and PP, are the climax species and both are created and MAINTAINED by a fire ecology. ....Even the open Bunchgrass grasslands are ''zoned''you will see in the list above the 3 driest zones I mentioned are all clumped together...enjoyadd: just noticed that the 2 fellows in the last citation are good friends and both recently retired. We spent many a good bush-day while the system was being fine tuned... (Any day in the field is far better than a day in the office...)
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
Thanks Eric! The office is overrated. The current office here looks out 30 miles into the Sierra with the Utility still repairing the 70kv lines into the national park by copter.
Someone on the news today said about the planned power outages. I don't want a bloated at the top utility, overseen by a bloated one party state, turning off my power. I left India because of that. He inserted a few countries so as to not offend.
The utility guys are working 200 feet up, dangling, with live 70kv replacing insulators. Big cajones!"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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Figure 15 Kv per insulating disc. Some lines carry more than twice 70 Kv - though I'm pretty sure that 70 Kv could leap though some air.
Linemen - those are the real heroes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKeqXyY-9xA
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
Glen was in the audience when Jimi Hendrix made it big in London. Campbell was a good enough guitar player to have gone either way stylewise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m6SZhYt-d0
There are links here to the research and presentation below for Mike and anyone who cares about Wildfire and the current SOTA .
https://sierrahistorical.org/about-us/fire-in-the-sierra/
"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
In general I find that trying to make nature "do what we want" doesn't end well. You get unexpected growth, better fuels and less return of forests. Forests really want to see fire.jonr said:Sounds to me like California needs to do more logging and turn forest land into goat pasture. Particularly land under power lines and surrounding housing. Cost - less than zero (it would generate income).
Of course, everyone wants their beautiful mountain home in the untrammeled wilderness with nature all around etc etc - and doesn't want it to burn. So the state suppresses fires. Which is fine if it's part of a long term plan to allow periodic burns. But that rarely happens. -
We never expected our mountain home to be protected by anyone but ourselves. We designed and built it to survive. Through 3 major wildfires we have proved it. Lost our insurance with great clearance, 18K gallons of water, 3 fire pumps, and 2+ independent power systems.
What we do not expect is whole towns to be burned by incompetent planning mostly from environmentalist and like leaning officials. It is the reason there is strong support (up here) to divide the state.
I heard this morning that a Bay area football game tonight was cancelled because someone sued that the power for the lighting was harming the earth.
This is the same kind of thinking that has caused the issues with fire. One would think that reasonable people would discuss the lighting of a football game during the offseason and not ruin some kids friday night. Our sheriff now gives a ticket to folks they use to arrest and try to reform. The junkies would clear their heads in jail and maybe get help. Now they just go steal for their next fix.
Crazy people run this state these days. They are touting an earthquake warning app with 1 to 3 seconds of warning. They would not be there if they did not know what they were doing.
"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
We had a gigantic fire last year. The homes that cleared 50' or more usually survived. The homes without clearance had no chance. The fire was so hot that mag wheels melted on cars.
Paradise, CA did not allow homeowners to clear their lots at all. Paradise no longer exists of course.
We have public decision makers that don't think there is a difference between men and women. CA decided not to do business with Iowa after Iowa said they won't allocate public funding for sex change operations. Which brings me to this soon to be deleted image.Yep. Bill the moderatorFirst Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
Hmm. the family oriented may not like the last picture. No comment on that.
I will comment on Paradise that I disagree about homeowners not being allowed to clear property. Many had zero clearance, were below current fire building code, had Ponderosa trees and needles in a city and that is just wrong. They had really high speed winds and had no chance without fire breaks. The same with a few of the other deadly California city fires in the last 5 years.
This states main problem, in my opinion is the right side of the isle has failed to compete with the left. They just do not have will to fight as the left does. There is no game plan other than let it play out and maybe some will start understanding the difference between independence and reliance."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
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E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Conservatives/family oriented find it funny. It is the far, far lefties that do not. My FB coterie loved it - they are at least middle aged though. Had our 43rd re-union.Dave Angelini said:Hmm. the family oriented may not like the last picture. No comment on that.
I will comment on Paradise that I disagree about homeowners not being allowed to clear property. Many had zero clearance, were below current fire building code, had Ponderosa trees and needles in a city and that is just wrong. They had really high speed winds and had no chance without fire breaks. The same with a few of the other deadly California city fires in the last 5 years.
This states main problem, in my opinion is the right side of the isle has failed to compete with the left. They just do not have will to fight as the left does. There is no game plan other than let it play out and maybe some will start understanding the difference between independence and reliance.
To my surprise and delight the far lefties have not taken over this forum - to date. Their militant tactics often win, they simply scream louder. Much louder.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
Remember, this forum belongs to NAWS. It does not belong to me.We are guests here and take care of the property that NAWS has so kindly funded and kept running these many years for the benefit of everyone.Take care,BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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> with great clearance
I'm curious as to what distance is needed. 50' (mentioned by softdown) sounds too close to a raging fire. 100+ feet? Plus a home that can survive any ember attack? A sprinkler on the roof?I am available for custom hardware/firmware development
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per Cal Fire:
100 Feet of Defensible Space is the Law
In January 2005 a new state law became effective that extended the defensible space clearance around homes and structures from 30 feet to 100 feet. Proper clearance to 100 feet dramatically increases the chance of your house surviving a wildfire. This defensible space also provides for firefighter safety when protecting homes during a wildland fire.
There are 3 zones in the 100' space
https://ucanr.edu/sites/fire/Wildfire_Preparation_-_Recovery/Landscaping/DefensibleSpace/
Sadly, for Paradise and Santa Rosa, the firestorms burned the houses and left the vegetation intact in many neighborhoods, so
the home construction style is a factor too. I have cement board siding, closed eves, screened vents, but my steel roof had to go, so I could install indoor sprinkler system & water supply, only so much $$ on hand.
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister , -
Good catch - I was not in the involved area. My figures were based on the estimates of a few people who either had cleared some property and/or lived in the affected area. 100' is the recommended distance. However a property clearer told me that a saved structure had nowhere close to 100' cleared. I was left thinking 50' was a good guess.jonr said:> with great clearance
I'm curious as to what distance is needed. 50' (mentioned by softdown) sounds too close to a raging fire. 100+ feet? Plus a home that can survive any ember attack? A sprinkler on the roof?
Yes - 100' would be the necessary distance and still no guarantees due to embers on roofs etc. You often can't stay there and fight a raging forest fire. I've only been involved in fighting one brush fire, those are a different beast for the most part. Volunteers fought that one with wet gunny sacks. It all depends on the amount of fuel available to the fire I guess.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
I was thinking 24 hours was enough for some chuckles. Was going to delete it myself. My thinking is the percentage of off gridders that are far, far left is strikingly low. Comedy always carries a degree of risk it seems.BB. said:Remember, this forum belongs to NAWS. It does not belong to me.We are guests here and take care of the property that NAWS has so kindly funded and kept running these many years for the benefit of everyone.Take care,Bill
I actually expect Ingsoc to complete my boot from the net in the not too distance future. Which might be a blessing due to enhanced motivation to complete a certain move that is long overdue. I am not able to join certain forums because Ingsoc has me labeled as a spammer - which I have not done a single time. I recommend certain products from Costco/Amazon/Ebay at rare times but that is far from spamming - it is helping. Never made a penny from it.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
The city fires above were doomed with the wind no matter what was done because of government planning. Also a factor is still that there is very little affordable housing in this state and the magnetics drew people to Paradise.
As said previously,
Many had zero clearance, were below current fire building code, had Ponderosa trees and needles in a city and that is just wrong. They had really high speed winds and had no chance without fire breaks. The same with a few of the other deadly California city fires in the last 5 years.
Winds over 70mph driving the fires. These winds are repeatable, forecastable, and known in the north as Diablo or devil winds.
Santa Anna in So Cal.
Clearance is a movable target. I live in a mountain area and my clearance needs to be 200 feet minimum based on slope. We have over 300' and chose this area because it is only subject to fire driven wind and not the coastal effect that often causes the high wind weather.
We were lucky to have been sailors and knew high winds from experience.
"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
My area went up in smoke in 2011. I is horrifying to watch your neighborhood burn. I have hundreds of before, during and after, but this shot gives you an idea. Shot this looking back, after waiting to evac until the very last minute.
I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life. -
Those Californians seemed to be headed in the wrong direction back in 2011. How prescient.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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Our fire was in Bastrop, TX.We lost 1,700 homes and 32,000 acres of very dense pine forest.When the fire started, the Feds sent in a super tanker because the area is rich with lakes. But it was grounded because the crew had timed out and nobody else was qualified to fly those big boys. Bad things happen in pine forest forest fires in minutes - let alone hours.Marc
I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life. -
Cool. Most people don't do that. They buy their McMansion in a boundary area and then expect to be protected from fire - then sue the utility when they shut down power during windstorms.Dave Angelini said:We never expected our mountain home to be protected by anyone but ourselves. We designed and built it to survive. Through 3 major wildfires we have proved it. Lost our insurance with great clearance, 18K gallons of water, 3 fire pumps, and 2+ independent power systems.I heard this morning that a Bay area football game tonight was cancelled because someone sued that the power for the lighting was harming the earth.You heard wrong. That's Save San Marin, a NIMBY group that doesn't want to light to bother THEM. From one Save San Marin guy: "Imagine not car headlights but huge mega truck headlights focused on your home and the whole side of the home was lit up and you could easily read a book."
These are the same groups who fight wind turbines, solar arrays, affordable housing and airports because they "reduce property values."One would think that reasonable people would discuss the lighting of a football game during the offseason and not ruin some kids friday night.They've been discussing it for four years, and won't stop until they get exactly what they want. -
Currently, California from roughly 20 mi north of the golden gate bridge, is blacked out like a 3rd world country, expected restore time is Monday if nothing goes wrong. Large fires just north of Santa Rosa, towns of Geyserville, Healdsburg and Windsor are evacuated. High winds expected tonight, humidity in single digits.Power shut off to 900,000 residents.7:48 p.m. Santa Rosa hospital evacuates patients: Sutter Health is evacuating patients from Sutter Santa Rosa Regional Hospital.Facilities in Novato and California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco will receive the patients.ironically, the fire was caused by energized lines in the same neighborhood as shutoffs occurred, the low voltage was cut, but not the 230Kv line that sparked the fire.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/PG-E-connection-to-Kincade-Fire-could-deepen-14563778.phpi'm off grid, warm and happy for the moment, till the cell towers go dark. Then i loose comms.
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister , -
In San Mateo, down in the flats and the foothills, power is mostly on (we missed this one).
My in-laws are near 280 in San Mateo, and PG&E cut their power around 8pm. Went up and started the eu2000i and plugged everything in... All seems to be work (running 3 full size refrigerators/freezer, looks like I have to run ECO throttle OFF--Full speed. On, the engine stalled when several heavy loads came on at the same time).
Hooked up the siphon cap for the eu2000i family to 5 gallon gas can. Hopefully will run a day without much issue (the Honda eu2000i family has a small fuel pump that can draw a light vacuum in the fuel tank. Put a cap with a fitting and hose--Will draw fuel from a nearby fuel can and keep the 1 gallon internal tank topped off).
-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
That's how I ran night time last summer, eu2000 on eco mode, with a external tank, about 2 gallons to get thru the night, but that was running generator assist, mostly charging the batteries overnight and handling night loads, of 3 fridges, and all the vampire loads. I ran synthetic oil in the crankcase.BB. said:.........
Hooked up the siphon cap for the eu2000i family to 5 gallon gas can. Hopefully will run a day without much issue (the Honda eu2000i family has a small fuel pump that can draw a light vacuum in the fuel tank. Put a cap with a fitting and hose--Will draw fuel from a nearby fuel can and keep the 1 gallon internal tank topped off).
-Bill
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister , -
I guess all of the straight GT systems some of you were pushing backfired a bit. No matter as all I had said years ago was only trolling to some people, right Mike. As to liberals taking over, yes they did and was why I and many others don't bother coming here much. I seem to recall one idiot in Michigan I believe it was that accused me of pushing fossil fuels because I recommended propane for a stove rather than straight electric elements when he had generators being fed with gasoline on a daily basis to power his electric stove/oven. I decided to come here to see if any of you changed your tunes on battery backup in light of the outages. Sure you can run a genny, but I won't be accused of pushing fossil fuels again. I and Coot gave lots of good advice on here that went unappreciated even by naws as I found out. BTW, Mike, I hope Russ and yourself get in big trouble for backing that idiot who thinks he's an expert who had to move to Panama. I don't see much sticking to the subject matter now let alone good advice. No real fair discussions on that other forum for sure, but this one isn't much better when you get ganged on. Bad part is we weren't wrong. BYE, BYE
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Personally I've been recommending battery backup (and non-battery backup systems) for years, but for most people, battery backup doesn't make financial sense compared to solar grid tie with either a Secure Power type backup or a cheap genny. It was good to see almost every major manufacturer at SPI (including Fronius) offering a battery option. And with the IQ8 line from Enphase, even their microinverter systems will be able to run with a battery.niel said:I guess all of the straight GT systems some of you were pushing backfired a bit. N -
In 2017 we were within 2 Km (~1.3 ,miles) of the closest fire and evacuated, our place was not damaged BUT it was so close we have spent the last 2 years clearing and cleaning many years of fuel build-up form former owners who wanted their seclusion " deep in the Woods" . Our Provincial Wild Fire Branch has developed a brochure that outlines distances from trees , bushes ,etc. that are minimums needed to minimize the chance of any structures igniting... Believe me it is a 'hard' decision to drop a tree that you have previously worked to keep...IMHO the game plan HAS TO BE, if it isn't already being considered, CHANGED for those poor folk that are being evacuated, if those people hope that their homes are to survive... I can remember when FIRE PROOF Cedar Shingles were re-allowed, after being banned, in California...As Dave Angelini has said repeatedly you have to have your structures, House, sheds, towers, etc. in the open and ALL burnables removed (raked away) from the foundations, etc..Remove standing trees that are within 100 feet of your house. and lastly a STATIC SUPPLY OF WATER ie a reservoir or cistern (pool?)...{ end of rant }
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
Having a hard time wrapping my head around runaway wildfires with November almost here. Colorado has her wildfires during the summer. But I suppose California has always been a "do your own thing" state.
Lots of very unhappy people for sure. Lots of crazy people that prevented the utility from doing ordinary safety precautions. If they value "natural" so much perhaps they ought to live in a tent and use corn cobs in the outhouse for toilet paper.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
we have had hang-over fires in November the logging debris had been piled a year prior for disposal , then 8 + inches of snow, A burning crew was sent out to get rid of the piles... a week later there was a chi nook wind, al the snow melted and the dry grass ignited and burned up to snow edge. we were all flabbergasted... high winds are not to be underestimated, expect just about anything to happen with a fire in those conditions.
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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