Best use for 3 into 1 GFCI with 2' of 12 AWG wire?

softdown · August 2019

Brand new - bought at Habitat for $15. Their "policy" is to sell donations for half price. Sometimes a deal, often not.

I've bought a ton of used stuff that didn't work quite right there - making me wonder about the motive behind the "donations". I look upon those dubious purchases as my own "donation". Since this is new it should be OK - they do get corporate donations that are OK.

I like to do some safety work as my off grid/prepper project progresses. Especially as I prepare to drop home insurance - they feel they own my place and are demanding that I remove campers, boats, construction materials, and firewood(!).

Biggest current draw and having significant value is the fridge. But do I want power cut because of a short spike in power? No. Same logic with the freezer.

There is the TV circuit which also powers the laptop and router and smartphone signal amplifier. Seems like the best usage for this safety device?

jonr · August 2019

> short spike in power

But this isn't what a GFCI protects against. Where is it best used? - where shock hazard is highest. For example, wet areas.

"Voltage protectors" are a different thing - I've found them quite useful in reducing power problems on things where a brief interruption doesn't matter (like a refrigerator).

softdown · August 2019

How about use in my camper then? Make sense there?

BB. · August 2019

GFI are there to protect against shock to a person who touches the Hot wire and "something else" (grounded metal plumbing, water puddle, radio or hair drier that falls into the bathtub, etc.). The GFI measures the current flow between Hot and Neutral, and when the differential current exceeds ~-0.005 to 0.025 Amps, the GFI opens and cuts power to its output circuit.

GFI do not protect against shock from somebody that touches the hot and neutral wire (in the US). And they do not protect against voltage surge/overvoltage/voltage spikes/surge in current).

They, in theory, do not help, safety wise, if the output is a floating PSW/TSW inverter output (you cannot get a shock if you touch hot and ground with a PSW inverter because the output for most inverters is an isolation transformer). I say in theory because if there is short somewhere in the electrical wiring, it converts the floating output to a ground referenced output that is no longer floating--And then is not "shock safe" at that point.

For safety, GFIs are nice. And mandatory for use around water (sinks, tubs, showers, outside, near pools, etc.). The can false trip and I have seen a few fail after 10+ years of use (they do not seem to last forever).

I suggest for an Inverter on a camper, that if you use a GFI, only use it for outlets and not use it for lighting fixtures in the camper. For example, you don't want a "valid" GFI fault (drop mixer in sink) to turn off the lights too--Or at least have two GFIs, one for working outlets (sink, outside of camper, etc.) and a second that that is only used for lighting.

-Bill

softdown · August 2019

Once had the delight of being part of a perfect circuit. I was standing in a puddle of saltwater on concrete and grabbed a saltwater aquarium pump with the insulation frayed off a small section of the power cord. Had immersed wet hands to copper wire contact with my wet feet on a puddle of saltwater.

It was truly electrifying. For those who believe they can "let go" - think again. What saved me was realizing that if I leaned away from the aquarium the circuit would not be complete. Which took a few seconds to figure out. I had no control of anything above the waist. Being electrocuted is pretty intense. Not a humane way to kill criminals.

The GFCI would probably be good for working on aquatic stuff. Which I do all the time. But I can't realistically unplug everything then use the GFCI to power things. With constantly wet hands, I've had a lot of micro zaps. Buzzes really.

mcgivor · August 2019

Many locations where 230V is used the main breaker is a RCBO which provides protection to the entire panel and it's branch circuits. This is the one in my distribution panel, 30mA may seem a little high but better than nothing, 230V has a more significant bite than 120V, which may be why RCBO's are not commonly used in 120V application.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/af/7pnzgkcs1evs.jpeg

BB. · August 2019

Actually, that is the perfect time to use GFIs... Either a circuit breaker in the main panel, a GFI outlet, or even a GFI equipped extension cord/power strip.

As we get older, we don't "bounce back" from these sorts of events as easily... And the Obit would be really embarrassing. "He died cleaning the aquarium via electrocution and drowning in a 5 gallon pail. The fish were OK".

I don't want that for anyone--Here, or anywhere.

-Bill

MichaelK · August 2019

I would strongly advise you to change your attitude. I was so very, very happy that my own insurance company was willing to give me a policy for my own off-grid property, especially after other off-grid neighbors were rejected. It also entailed removing things they considered fire hazards. Look, these people spend their entire day determining risks. You'd be smart to listen to them.

softdown · August 2019

MichaelK said:

I would strongly advise you to change your attitude. I was so very, very happy that my own insurance company was willing to give me a policy for my own off-grid property, especially after other off-grid neighbors were rejected. It also entailed removing things they considered fire hazards. Look, these people spend their entire day determining risks. You'd be smart to listen to them.

Could you show a little more arrogance and condescension?

BB. · August 2019

Softdown,

Ease up... MK was not being arrogant. He just really believes what he is typing. And we all are concerned that nothing bad happens to you.

You have had some tough times. And all it takes is for the dice to roll the wrong way for things to really go bad. Insurance is a game of chance, and the inspectors are there to help avoid bad outcomes--Good both for them (the company) and you.

Very sincerely,
-Bill

Estragon · August 2019

Sometimes the insurers can get carried away though.

I owned a "rental", which I owned just so my father had a place to live (which otherwise would likely have been under a bridge). If not owner occupied, apparently it's a rental even if the "tenant" is your father and the "rent" is cutting the grass.

He was pretty hard on the place, and in latter years the interior got to the point a complete gut job or demolition was obviously going to be needed to sell it. As such, I didn't want to spend much time and money on the place, but the insurer was regularly in touch wanting deficiencies large and small (eg gutters cleaned) corrected that had nothing to do with covered risks (fire and 3rd party liability).

If he had lived much longer, I would have had to make some pretty tough decisions, mainly because of the insurance company demands.

jonr · August 2019

I suspect that there is a correlation between a place being well maintained and covered risks. Perhaps even when the maintenance is done in response to a push from the insurance company. Ie, the risk difference between "this place looks good and I've put a lot of work into it, I'm going to be cautious about fires" vs "this place is a dump, I wish it would burn down".

Estragon · August 2019

There may be something to that, but you'd think they'd focus on things more directly related. For example, the electrical system was ancient (including some knob & tube wiring, duplex recepticals mounted flush in hw floors, etc).

softdown · August 2019

Estragon said:

Sometimes the insurers can get carried away though.

I owned a "rental", which I owned just so my father had a place to live (which otherwise would likely have been under a bridge). If not owner occupied, apparently it's a rental even if the "tenant" is your father and the "rent" is cutting the grass.

He was pretty hard on the place, and in latter years the interior got to the point a complete gut job or demolition was obviously going to be needed to sell it. As such, I didn't want to spend much time and money on the place, but the insurer was regularly in touch wanting deficiencies large and small (eg gutters cleaned) corrected that had nothing to do with covered risks (fire and 3rd party liability).

If he had lived much longer, I would have had to make some pretty tough decisions, mainly because of the insurance company demands.

They sent down a city slicker to evaluate a rural property. Demanding that I get rid of campers, boats, construction materials, and firewood is simply beyond the pale. There is something very odd going on with my agency. They call me every single time I go out of state. Every single time.

The "construction materials" is enough cinder blocks to build a small house. Why would someone store boats and campers at a storage unit when they have five acres in the boondocks? There are two homes within a mile.

I've been on the fence about insurance for years anyway. These are big risk factors that drive up home insurance:
Hail - forcing a new, expensive roof. Never seen it here. Common for most Colorado residents.
Tornado - they can occur in Colorado. Never in this mountain valley.
Wildfire - big risk in the mountains. Never happened in this mountain valley.
Theft - not much coverage unless one pays extra. Every time I succeed in additional coverage that additional coverage gets dropped with renewal. I ensure 4-5 cars and trucks with them. Nothing more than a fender bender in 12 years. I have an electric security fence, guard dogs, ADT security, and Medeco locks.
Trees - No trees to fall on the house.
Fire - Always possible. But should one pay for six major risks when only two are realistic?

I don't need yet another stranger to tell me how to run my life. Never heard of this MK poster. With five houses and six cars and trucks I have some experience with insurance.

What is it with modern life anyway? All these strangers telling other people how to think and what to say anyway? It takes absolute arrogance and condescension to conduct themselves in that manner.

jonr · August 2019

No doubt that if you can afford the loss and aren't higher risk than they think, then self-insuring is, on average, better financially. Maybe a very high deductible is a decent compromise. Sorry for being way off the "solar electric" track.

BB. · August 2019

In my limited experience, knob and tube wiring was not near the hazard as, what was then modern and cheaper (1960's to 1970's) aluminium wiring. You should use a torque screwdriver to tighten these:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/AlumiConn-3-Port-Al-Cu-Wire-Connectors-10-Pack-95110/202889892

AlumiConn 3-Port AlCu Wire Connectors 10-Pack

AlumiConn 3-Port AlCu Wire Connectors 10-Pack

For residential wiring, using this connectors to reconnect 2x aluminum wires to one copper (to outlet, other copper house wiring) has seemed to be about the best DIY solution out there (aluminum/copper compatible purple wire nuts, CU/AL outlets, etc. did not seem to do the job nearly as well).

https://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wiring_Hazards.php

I remember my father back in the mid 1960's trying like heck to just find enough copper wire for a two bedroom addition. He was a smart cookie.

-Bill

softdown · August 2019

BB. said:

In my limited experience, knob and tube wiring was not near the hazard as, what was then modern and cheaper (1960's to 1970's) aluminium wiring. You should use a torque screwdriver to tighten these:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/AlumiConn-3-Port-Al-Cu-Wire-Connectors-10-Pack-95110/202889892

For residential wiring, using this connectors to reconnect 2x aluminum wires to one copper (to outlet, other copper house wiring) has seemed to be about the best DIY solution out there (aluminum/copper compatible purple wire nuts, CU/AL outlets, etc. did not seem to do the job nearly as well).

https://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wiring_Hazards.php

I remember my father back in the mid 1960's trying like heck to just find enough copper wire for a two bedroom addition. He was a smart cookie.

-Bill

The Vietnam War caused a copper shortage and many homes were wired with aluminum during those years. Generally speaking it is best to avoid homes with aluminum wiring. The only aluminum cables I have are the main power lines from the breaker box to one wing.

Many times the "worst enemy of good is better". Leaving those lines alone. The only power used in that wing is a couple small ight bulbs anyway.

Interesting aside - the national grid is done with aluminum cables in my experience. Including the cables that run from the power company transformer to household breaker boxes. The issue seems to be the inherent problems with connecting copper to aluminum.

Best use for 3 into 1 GFCI with 2' of 12 AWG wire?

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