Guys!! Lets compare hybrid inverter/charger products! Who is the right choice?

I come from industrial automation, engineering, etc. I need a hybrid inverter/charger for off-grid. Still not sure if these integrated charger solutions are worth it or not? System will be built with liFePO4 bank, aux generator with AGS, and PV. I need a minimum of 8KW cont available with good surge capacity for motor starts.
My first choice was Schneider XW+ because I have used their products and know they build quality. However, when I grabbed the phone to chat about the internal electrical design of their product, I realized I cannot even call them....???!!! WTF? I put in a tech ticket and now waiting for a call. that does NOT set well with me.
I then moved to Outback and had a good convo on their 8048 radian. They seem to have a good product but I have heard a few things. I have read that you need a separate interface just to program and adjust it? Not sure what all the other modules cost.
the price for this stuff mounts of quick and one thing that interests me (maybe) is the software solutions for monitoring and possibly even control? It did seem like Schneider had a decent setup that was easy to work with. Looks like Outback has something similar but I am not even sure what this stuff costs? I am not into paying many hundreds for monitoring, and a monthly fee just to have all that, but I certainly need something!
The things that I hold as priorities is high level tech support. Like board level chat. I have repaired nearly every electronic device out there and I get a sour taste when the only option is "send it for service". I am also looking for a quality product that is robust so failures would be rare anyway. I also want features, options, and adjustability.
I have considered a lesser inverter, then a couple charge controllers, one with an AGS for the genny, and another for the PV. But if we are not talking much cost difference, maybe the integrated systems are best?
My first choice was Schneider XW+ because I have used their products and know they build quality. However, when I grabbed the phone to chat about the internal electrical design of their product, I realized I cannot even call them....???!!! WTF? I put in a tech ticket and now waiting for a call. that does NOT set well with me.
I then moved to Outback and had a good convo on their 8048 radian. They seem to have a good product but I have heard a few things. I have read that you need a separate interface just to program and adjust it? Not sure what all the other modules cost.
the price for this stuff mounts of quick and one thing that interests me (maybe) is the software solutions for monitoring and possibly even control? It did seem like Schneider had a decent setup that was easy to work with. Looks like Outback has something similar but I am not even sure what this stuff costs? I am not into paying many hundreds for monitoring, and a monthly fee just to have all that, but I certainly need something!
The things that I hold as priorities is high level tech support. Like board level chat. I have repaired nearly every electronic device out there and I get a sour taste when the only option is "send it for service". I am also looking for a quality product that is robust so failures would be rare anyway. I also want features, options, and adjustability.
I have considered a lesser inverter, then a couple charge controllers, one with an AGS for the genny, and another for the PV. But if we are not talking much cost difference, maybe the integrated systems are best?
Comments
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
industrial automation, engineering, background.
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pages/b17/index.php
My guess is it will directly compete with the Exeltech units used as backup in many of our Government Embassies. Not sure if those did grid tie but also good equipment if a bunch happens to come on the market.
Building your own Inverter would probably be the closest one could get, this link is related to just that https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/354711/2nd-edition-6kw-ozinverter-build-book-manual-pcbs
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
Mcgivor, we get board level assistance on other related products so was just surprised with the lack of help. No doubt I want to choose one in which gives the most information. I don't appreciate spending thousands on a product, then being told "sorry, its 2yo, its old, buy another one"..... We have CNC Fanuc systems that are 20+yo and they continue to work great, and I can call and get parts and tech support.
I did read here where you cannot buy parts for Schneider products? Really?
The good news is they rarely fail. I mean rarely.
Here is a link to the XW Pro that we did the field circuit validation test here for Schneider. There are 2 new PCB's in Pro that updated the unit for Rule 21. XW+ is still for sale and is a very mature, rock solid, time tested inverter/charger from the old "greybox" XW's circa 2005.
https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/353921/new-inverter-xw-pro-new-conext-gateway-with-easy-remote-monitoring-on-conext-insight-2
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Not sure what you mean about Midnite pricing. It seems to me that pricing on their charge controllers is competitive comparing similar units from other major brands. AFAIK, pricing and availability on their inverters is TBA. IMHO, they're probably the most DIY oriented of the major brands.
I found Outback to be fairly fast and good to deal with when I had trouble with one of my inverters. They sent boards for DIY field replacement.
FWIW
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
Whatever the OP decides I would only use one brand to enable a networked power system with all of the data in one place. Out to the web for remote operation, monitoring, and configuration. Even in a Offgrid application without internet, a networked system is so much easier for non technical folks to monitor.
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Tony
Here is the question running through my mind last night. It appears the generator connection to the XW must having a phase sensing circuit and will latch relays to the output when phase sync is acceptable? I recall at least the Outback guy (remember I can't even talk to Schneider) saying you can limit how much power to take from the generator. I don't think I believe that based on the diagram I have seen. Probably limit the current TO the battery bank FROM the generator because they are probably just using a couple Mosfets and PWM scheme to regulate power to the batteries once it is rectified. If you connect a genny to the output with relays, you don't have control of current unless the inverter output sine waveform is modified.
My issue or concern - I want to use a 3kw generator to charge batteries on a 10kwh bank. I want to use at least the XW6848, but that probably still is not enough. I will have loads well up to inverter capacity, but for a low duty cycle of 10-15%. If these inverters directly connect to the output line, there would be no way to really limit power from the generator.
In an ideal world, the genny charges the bank. The genny is programmed to come in with an AGS under certain conditions or go manual if I already know I will have high loads. My loads might be 8000w so I would want 3kw from the generator, 5kw from the inverter/batteries. Once those short duration loads are met, load will drop and the 3kw generator can recharge the batteries and go to sleep.
I seemed to confuse the Outback guys with this and not sure why. A generator's efficiency ($/kwh) is directly tied to load. The more load I can get on a generator, the better, so it is NOT ideal to run a huge generator with minimal load just to cover some very short duration loads.
From the looks of this, if I cannot verify functions of an inverter/charger, I may have to just use a discrete charge controller between the genny and bank, and setup the AGS totally independent of the inverter.
I glanced at the MPP unit last night. They have a split phase unit and 'show' a generator pictured but say precisely nothing about connecting a genny in the books. You cannot just slam a genny on the line!!!! If they are out of sync, there will be a frequency war that all the downstream loads will hear, and it can cause damage to generation devices. I asked Outback specifically how they do it and of course he didn't know. I NEED to know how this stuff works!
People have installed Schneider and Outback here zillions of times. Keep an open mind and a little humility can go along way. Many of the support people are entry level these days. Just the way it is.
Everyone has different goals. In my ideal world, the genny does not charge the batteries, there is no genny
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I have seen the schematic you posted but I was hoping to see much more detail as there are no sensing circuits on the transfer switching and you cannot backfeed an IGBT pack so I don't even know how power gets from the genny to the DC bus. From the schematic, it appears the IGBT pack generates 240VAC and connected to a split phase, iron core transformer, but I wanted to confirm the accuracy of that.
For them to provide the level of detail you seem to want to "dig MUCH deeper into the nuts and bolts" may be bordering on providing a blueprint for copycat products, which is obviously not in their interest.
I do understand a desire to understand the products I use, but also understand that a product has to deliver a feature, not necessarily explain in detail exactly how that feature is delivered.
If Schneider says a feature works, you can certainly ask them to clarify whether the feature works in your specific application, but to ask them to essentially provide the engineering to duplicate the feature might be a bit much.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
It's harder, but not that much harder to reverse engineer the functionality of most products, if you really want to.
What's really hard is to duplicate is brand, innovation, distribution, and support.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
Battery Bank Capacity 1000 A (1,000A makes for easy, direct conversion to charging amps,
mistakes are limited to AC2 & Generator Support amps limits)
Maximum Charge Rate used is 5-35 A
AC2 Breaker Size 18.5 A (each breaker is only @ 120V so both will add, this setting = a limit of 4680w, internally derated to 3744w)
Generator Support Enable: Enabled
Generator Support amps: 13.5 A (each breaker is only @ 120V so both will add, this setting = a limit internally derated to 2515w)
Generator Support PLUS Enabled
ST5 on lister 6/1
AC2 Breaker Size 18.5
Generator Support amps 13.5
Honda EU2000i spec 13A 1600w cont, 2kw 30 min (I use a high quality transformer to step up to 240V)
AC2 Breaker Size 9.0
Generator Support amps 5.0
Battery Settings generic 48V but Float 54.4 Bulk/Abs 54.5
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
Just to open a can of worms, I have at least been 'looking' at the MPP 5kw 120/240V inverters. Obviously cheaper but scanning through the settings, it appears largely lacking in modularity. However, I guess they have a built in MPPT controller built in, which is sort of slick, BUT, as with the "all-in-one" types, if one thing goes down, it all does, which is not so cool.
I was possibly looking to use a pair of inverters for some redundancy, and possibly look to use the generator for manual anticipated high load support.
I am curious what transformer you are using? I was trying to get from Outback if I MUST have 120/240V connected at the generator? I would be very happy to just connect a 240V transformer, feed 240V to the inverter for 240V support on the line, and let 120V loads come off the inverter.
In mine, I have a generator, and a parallel stacked (master/slave) pair of inverters wired for 120v. My only 240v load (water pump) is powered via Outback 240v transformer.
Another application could be load/leg balancing 240v output to 120v. 240v generator to series stacked inverters, then leg balanced via transformer to 120v loads.
It really comes down to what the application/loads want.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,