Using electric car battery to power off grid homes

rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
https://electrek.co/2018/11/28/nissan-energy-leaf-vehicle-to-home-building/
Remember when the Nissan leaf announced a Gizmo to power your home off the electric car's battery about 8 years ago, but it was only available in Japan? 
Fast forward 2019 and everyone should be picking up electric cars to use for off grid power. 
Except no one is.
When I read the forum it's the same boring battery tech used a decade ago.

What gives? 
Nissan leaf not sexy enough for off grid types?
No easy hardware?

If I wanted to live on a lava field in Hawaii, getting an electric vechicle, some solar panels would be on the must have list. 

Comments

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭✭
    Sorry you're bored. Sometimes boring is a good thing!

    If you want to use an electric car battery for a home you must reconfigure it, because there aren't a lot of 120-280 volt input inverters. Once you reconfigure you have separate issue of battery management systems with several parallel battery groups. Then you just have to deal with the regular lithium battery issues, I guess the first Leaf batteries were NiMH but...

    I'll certainly consider a Lithium battery when my current battery dies, I don't really want to redesign my system though so the battery can be inside, which means rerunning my wiring closer to the house and locating my inverter and charge controller inside. That's the first step. Then I need to figure out what to do with the freezing issue when I'm away during the winter months. I guess I can just unhook the battery and empty out my refrigerator and freezer....

    ...no maybe not, guess I need to rig up a thermostat to a relay so the chargers won't try to charge the battery bank when it's below freezing. I wonder what a SS relay that will handle 125 amp DC load will cost? I think that will work with the Midnite Classics, other charge controllers you would want to hook up battery first...

    Yeah fun, new technology...

    Was gone 2 months winter before last. I think we were below freezing for almost a week during part of that time. Guess there wasn't much demand from my fridge, lol. but I'd worry more about the system. Sometimes boring is good.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    I understand don't fix what is not broken. No need to rewire an older system. But my wonderment is not because of that. It is because..... Why does Nissan sell a Unit to power your home off a Nissan leaf in Japan but not in USA?  
    Doesn't the usa have the largest percentage of off grid homes? Seems like selling them here would be a smart move?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,037 admin
    Many electric cars (and GT systems) survive on government subsidies.

    No subsidies, no company interest in providing the product?

    If somebody is in California, contact your state elected officials... They are always interested in handing out more cash:

    https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-ev-state-subsidies-20170720-story.html

    But even California is having problems finding a few billion dollars in the couch:

    Over seven years, California has spent $430 million on low-emission vehicle subsidies to help lower the cost for car buyers.

    Now the state Legislature is looking to extend that by another seven years, but with a price tag of $3 billion.

    Assembly Bill 1184 is being slammed for leaving basic questions unanswered, including the biggest one: Where would the money come from?

    The legislation favors automakers such as Tesla that make electric-only cars over carmakers that sell plug-in hybrids – subsidies on such cars would be a fraction of pure EVs.

    The Assembly's own analysts have described the bill as "duplicative," "unclear" and "problematic."

    Even some supporters admit it's not fully cooked. And one Democratic state senator, Jerry Hill, has even proposed stripping funding until revenue sources are identified.

    Off grid homes... No real source of money for graff (no monthly utility bills, not much in the way of property taxes, running out of places and people to tax/get government fingers in the money flow).

    But, where there is a will (well), there is a way--At least attempts at a way:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/california-drought/well-water-metering-not-my-land-say-california-landowners-n358296
    As the state works toward groundwater solutions, well metering and measuring are wedging into conversations. But it's a tough sell for landowners and private well owners.
    Ground water is a real problem... A friend of a friend has had his own well go dry twice (even after drilling a new/deeper well the first time)--

    When a marijuana grow (which uses lots of water) moved into the neighborhood (in central valley, California).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,037 admin
    And there was (is?) the tax the sun movement... 6 years ago in Spain (don't know what happened):

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2013/08/19/out-of-ideas-and-in-debt-spain-sets-sights-on-taxing-the-sun/#422765e494e5

    -Bill

    And there's still more: in order to figure out who is producing what level of energy (and, of course, to tax it), all solar panels now have to be hooked up to the grid. Those taxpayers who don't connect to the grid face a fine of up to 30 million euros ($40 million U.S.). Yes, million. With an m. That kind of number is so incomprehensible to the average person that it's almost like they pulled it out of nowhere, as if the conversation went something like this:

    Maybe 10 euros? Nah, not nearly enough.

    What about 100 million euros? No, way too much.

    30 million euros? Yeah, that sounds about right.

    However they figured the number, the intention is clearly to scare taxpayers into connecting to the grid in order to be taxed. The tax, however, will make it economically unfeasible for residents to produce their own energy: it will be cheaper to keep buying energy from current providers. And that is exactly the point.

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019 #6
    There are folks on this forum who use electric car batteries. Do a search? I have the Tesla roadster upgrade battery powering my home some of the time along with FLA's from US battery and agree totally with photowhit.

    The Gov signed another 100 million away this am to give healthcare to young illegals even though 60% opposed it.

    They are draining Friant Dam (near Fresno) right now into the ocean because the bureaucrats funded a new dam and then voted against the impact reports. Screwed the farmers nicely as they just waste water on making food.

    I do not know your plans Bill but as soon as we are too old to live offgrid we are headed to Nevada. You have any special place for the later years?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,037 admin
    I got in-laws that we live nearby, so not leaving soon. I have a friend whose family has roots in Carson Valley NV... 

    Always interested--But my wife, not so much. Oh Well.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    above video shows leaf battery set up. Midnight classic not designed to charge it though. My guess is once people start waking up to the real cost of burning fossil fuels, climate change, the cost of solar and electric cars will look like a bargain, no subsidies needed. But it will probably take Miami being flooded and other major devastation before Politicians take their head out of the sand and do something about it. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. 

    With the average range of an electric car exceeding 200mph and data showing most people dont' travel anywhere near that much every day, we are looking at a huge glut of energy being stored that is not used. Might as well use it IMHO!
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭✭
    Sometimes it's nice to have that fuel in the tank, that capacity.

    In fact it's perhaps the single thing that people don't understand when comparing lithium to lead acid battery banks.

    Most lead acid CAN go to 20% SOC, you just can't do it very often without seriously reducing your battery life. So if I was to replace my lead acid battery bank with lithium, I might be able to go 10% max less capacity. NO a 50% smaller battery bank won't cut it. 

    Yes it's great that lithium can cycle 75-80% of it's capacity day in and day out, but I need that 'fuel in the tank' for cloudy periods when there will be minimal charging if any. No thank you I don't want to run a generator so I can have a smaller capacity battery that costs 5x+ the price.

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    article below states cost of lithium ion batteries used in cars will be about 50% less in 6 years. 
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/18/cars/electric-car-market-sales/index.html
    in 10 years electric cars will be as affordable as ICE cars. 
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Could be Fake News. Santa Clause told me not to get my hopes up ;)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    no one predicted how fast solar panel prices would plunge either.
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Someone very likely did, but they just got lucky.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A few even predicted the great recession in 08. Would have like to have had that luck!

    A 400 AH 48 volt lead acid I just bought for a client, was the same price it has been (mas o menos) for 10 years was $2,500 for 20KWH
    A 6KWH LFP is about 7K retail. 
    It has been 3 to one cost for roughly 1/2 the the KWH for 5 years now. 
    I also hope it will improve!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did predict 08.  That part was relatively easy.  The harder part was when TSHTF, they changed the rules.  Shorts were subject to subject to arbitrary forced cover.  I understand why they did it, but in doing it they've sown the seeds for a potentially much worse outcome in the future.

    Predicting relative prices ten years from now is much harder.  A lot can happen in ten years.  Anyone remember a federal reserve board chair concerned about the US running out of natural gas not so long ago?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Raj174Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 728 ✭✭✭✭
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 195AH LiFePO4 no BMS, Kohler Pro 5.2E.
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    as long as projected electric car sales continue to improve, the economies of scale will easily make batteries much cheaper, especially for those who want to do the hard work of harvesting the batteris from wrecked cars. 


  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well Estragon ,  tell me the next time oK? The longest bull market is still going for those who stayed "in"
     I think peak oil was suppose to be next year, remember that one?

    The last thing I want is used car batteries. The "brand new" Li-ion for residential are bad enough. I have been following private testing in Australia that over 4 years has shown a 61% failure rate. Kind of makes the long life claims a moot point.

    Friday!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

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