Are Lithium Batteries the way to go?

Estragon · July 2018

I'm not sure how cold it gets in Alaska. Here, it can get into the -40s (though not so often in recent years, it seems). My understanding is the batteries are okay in storage at that temp, but can't be charged unless warmed up. It seems to me the solution would be for incoming power, solar or otherwise, to first be used to warm the bank, probably slowly to allow uniform warming.

The box itself and contained airspace might heat pretty fast, but say there's 1000# of battery needing to go from -25 to +35°f. That's 60° x 1000 =60,000 btu, roughly 20kwh. My 48v string of L16s weighs about that. A lithium bank with equivalent usable power would presumably be less (maybe 1/2 ?), but still tough to warm with a single panel, even in a well insulated box.

Keeping a bank warm (as opposed to warming a cold one) might be possible, depending on the surface area of the box, ambient conditions, and the Rvalue of the insulation, but I'd count on the panel getting covered by snow, or some other impediment.

In other words, I'd want a charging system that simply won't charge if battery/cell temp is below spec.

Dave Angelini · August 2018

Something like that estragon because one can't depend on keeping a solar array clear to keep a battery warm.
I just went through this recently and we ended up using an AGM for cost and the least likely to have damage in temps like you mentioned.
An attended system is not a problem as long as there is a pulse on the human

OldMan · August 2018

Estragon said:

Lithium (of which there are multiple types with distinct characteristics), solves some problems, but creates others. Some include inability to charge in cold temps, greater risk of fire, difficulty in using voltage as a SOC indicator, and cost.

These can be overcome with some chemistries in some applications, but for my off-grid application, like softdown, I think I'll wait a bit for costs to come down.

I don't have time to wait. So I'll plunge in, feet first, into lithium. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. I'll get mine from China. If you look around, you can find panels, new or lightly-used, for not so much money.

Besides, winters, I'm at Coyote Howls. See you there?

softdown · August 2018

Using an F or a C is hard when discussing temperatures on an international board. Unfortunate.

softdown · August 2018

OldMan said:

Estragon said:

Lithium (of which there are multiple types with distinct characteristics), solves some problems, but creates others. Some include inability to charge in cold temps, greater risk of fire, difficulty in using voltage as a SOC indicator, and cost.

These can be overcome with some chemistries in some applications, but for my off-grid application, like softdown, I think I'll wait a bit for costs to come down.

I don't have time to wait. So I'll plunge in, feet first, into lithium. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. I'll get mine from China. If you look around, you can find panels, new or lightly-used, for not so much money.

Besides, winters, I'm at Coyote Howls. See you there?

Lithium batteries are still catching fire from time to time. Not something I care to sleep on. I'm funny like that.

softdown · August 2018

Why do I keep seeing comments about battery costs coming down? I don't see that at all. ~Five years ago, a GC2 (golf cart battery) was about $70 at Costco and Sams. About $95 now. Not only inflationary but double digit so.

Estragon · August 2018

I don't think LA battery prices are likely dropping anytime soon. Transport costs will see to that.

There's a plausible scenario in which lithium could drop, but equally plausible they don't. My guess is EV battery capacity runs ahead of EV demand, and that, combined with manufacturing efficiencies, means lower (EV) battery prices.

At this point, I don't want to sleep on an EV battery either though, so will wait and see.

As a Canadian, I know that -40° is damned cold, and about the same whether C or F.

softdown · August 2018

Funny thing is that GC2s were about $70 when gas was $4/gallon. Gas is now about $2.75/gallon in Colorado and has been steady or lower. Something else going on.

OldMan · August 2018

softdown said:

OldMan said:

Estragon said:

Lithium (of which there are multiple types with distinct characteristics), solves some problems, but creates others. Some include inability to charge in cold temps, greater risk of fire, difficulty in using voltage as a SOC indicator, and cost.

These can be overcome with some chemistries in some applications, but for my off-grid application, like softdown, I think I'll wait a bit for costs to come down.

I don't have time to wait. So I'll plunge in, feet first, into lithium. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. I'll get mine from China. If you look around, you can find panels, new or lightly-used, for not so much money.

Besides, winters, I'm at Coyote Howls. See you there?

Lithium batteries are still catching fire from time to time. Not something I care to sleep on. I'm funny like that.

OldMan · August 2018

I will never spend a moment in cold weather if I can't help it. Both my wife and I dread the cold.

OldMan said:

softdown said:

OldMan said:

Estragon said:

Lithium (of which there are multiple types with distinct characteristics), solves some problems, but creates others. Some include inability to charge in cold temps, greater risk of fire, difficulty in using voltage as a SOC indicator, and cost.

These can be overcome with some chemistries in some applications, but for my off-grid application, like softdown, I think I'll wait a bit for costs to come down.

I don't have time to wait. So I'll plunge in, feet first, into lithium. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. I'll get mine from China. If you look around, you can find panels, new or lightly-used, for not so much money.

Besides, winters, I'm at Coyote Howls. See you there?

Lithium batteries are still catching fire from time to time. Not something I care to sleep on. I'm funny like that.

softdown said:

OldMan said:

Estragon said:

Lithium (of which there are multiple types with distinct characteristics), solves some problems, but creates others. Some include inability to charge in cold temps, greater risk of fire, difficulty in using voltage as a SOC indicator, and cost.

These can be overcome with some chemistries in some applications, but for my off-grid application, like softdown, I think I'll wait a bit for costs to come down.

I don't have time to wait. So I'll plunge in, feet first, into lithium. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. I'll get mine from China. If you look around, you can find panels, new or lightly-used, for not so much money.

Besides, winters, I'm at Coyote Howls. See you there?

Lithium batteries are still catching fire from time to time. Not something I care to sleep on. I'm funny like that.

Lifepo4 batteries are at least as safe as ANY lead-acid battery. You tell me, saying this, you have not kept up. Besides, WTF do you care what I use? Mind your own business.

Estragon · August 2018

> @softdown said:
> Funny thing is that GC2s were about $70 when gas was $4/gallon. Gas is now about $2.75/gallon in Colorado and has been steady or lower. Something else going on.

Drivers. not enough of them to move the truck freight, so price goes up. Also an emissions regulation change a few years ago I've forgotten the details of.

softdown · August 2018

OldMan said:

I will never spend a moment in cold weather if I can't help it. Both my wife and I dread the cold.

OldMan said:

softdown said:

OldMan said:

Estragon said:

Lithium (of which there are multiple types with distinct characteristics), solves some problems, but creates others. Some include inability to charge in cold temps, greater risk of fire, difficulty in using voltage as a SOC indicator, and cost.

These can be overcome with some chemistries in some applications, but for my off-grid application, like softdown, I think I'll wait a bit for costs to come down.

I don't have time to wait. So I'll plunge in, feet first, into lithium. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. I'll get mine from China. If you look around, you can find panels, new or lightly-used, for not so much money.

Besides, winters, I'm at Coyote Howls. See you there?

Lithium batteries are still catching fire from time to time. Not something I care to sleep on. I'm funny like that.

softdown said:

OldMan said:

Estragon said:

Lithium (of which there are multiple types with distinct characteristics), solves some problems, but creates others. Some include inability to charge in cold temps, greater risk of fire, difficulty in using voltage as a SOC indicator, and cost.

These can be overcome with some chemistries in some applications, but for my off-grid application, like softdown, I think I'll wait a bit for costs to come down.

I don't have time to wait. So I'll plunge in, feet first, into lithium. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. I'll get mine from China. If you look around, you can find panels, new or lightly-used, for not so much money.

Besides, winters, I'm at Coyote Howls. See you there?

Lithium batteries are still catching fire from time to time. Not something I care to sleep on. I'm funny like that.

Lifepo4 batteries are at least as safe as ANY lead-acid battery. You tell me, saying this, you have not kept up. Besides, WTF do you care what I use? Mind your own business.

https://www.thoughtco.com/why-lithium-batteries-catch-fire-606814

https://www.techradar.com/news/why-lithium-ion-batteries-catch-fire

It is somewhat doubtful that this board will prove to a suitable home for you. We seek to discuss and share scientifically validated findings in the solar industry.

mcgivor · August 2018

Making blanket statements such as "lithium batteries catch fire" along with the misinformation propagated by articles only perpetuate the fear of the unknown, note the missing detail, what chemistry of lithium batteries are prone to such failure and why.

Estragon · August 2018

ANY battery deserves respect as a potentially dangerous system.

My preference, for now, is to not sleep on an EV battery (and speaking specifically about EV batteries). That preference might change, but for now, that's my preference.

I don't really care WTF anyone else prefers to sleep on, but I'm always open to new perpectives

mike95490 · August 2018

Lifepo4 batteries are at least as safe as ANY lead-acid battery.

That's an amazing new revelation to me. What backs that statement up ?

OldMan · August 2018

mike95490 said:

Lifepo4 batteries are at least as safe as ANY lead-acid battery.
That's an amazing new revelation to me. What backs that statement up ?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-batteries-robert-bean

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/archive/lithium_ion_safety_concerns

https://www.altenergymag.com/article/2017/08/lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-batteries/26928

I think these allay most fears. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. Ever.

OldMan · August 2018

softdown said:

OldMan said:

Estragon said:

Lithium (of which there are multiple types with distinct characteristics), solves some problems, but creates others. Some include inability to charge in cold temps, greater risk of fire, difficulty in using voltage as a SOC indicator, and cost.

These can be overcome with some chemistries in some applications, but for my off-grid application, like softdown, I think I'll wait a bit for costs to come down.

I don't have time to wait. So I'll plunge in, feet first, into lithium. No lead-acid batteries under my bed. I'll get mine from China. If you look around, you can find panels, new or lightly-used, for not so much money.

Besides, winters, I'm at Coyote Howls. See you there?

Lithium batteries are still catching fire from time to time. Not something I care to sleep on. I'm funny like that.

I'd like to see some links (even one) to support this, as I want to understand the context and causes.

BB. · August 2018

I think some folks have become complacent about Lead Acid batteries too... Besides the fact that any of these large storage battery banks can output 100's to 1,000's of amps or more into a dead short (always use good wiring practices, fuses/breakers, proper gauge wire, and reasonablly fire resistant enclosures/construction), any of these batteries can catch fire if they are having problems (lead acid LiFePO4, etc.). And if they do not catch fire themselves, they can catch nearby stuff on fire, and/or spray some pretty toxic acids and materials around the area.

Installing a battery bank under my bed... Something that I would try to avoid. If you need to do this--Some sort of good insulative cover over the top of the batteries to prevent short circuits and stuff.

Li Ion batteries add a new dimension that worries me... The electrolyte used in some/many/all(?) chemistry Li Ion batteries can produce HydroFloric Acid (HF) that is highly toxic (44 ppm for 1 hour can cause death):

https://www.quora.com/Why-Hydrofluoric-HF-gas-is-not-considered-as-a-hazard-during-large-lithium-battery-fire

The hydrofluoric acid was described as a secondary result created when ”Reaction of a widely used electrolyte salt – LiPF6 – upon contact with water is known to result in the generation of gaseous HF.” But there’s usually water during accidents - fire hose, battery coolant. Humidity. The MSDS sheet on Hydrofluoric Acid is SCARY - only 44 ppm is lethal in an hour.

Tesla has been using the Panasonic 18650 cell. 6831 of them. It’s MSDS Sheet identifies the electrolyte as Lithium Hexaflurophosphate – Salt (LiPF6) the very salt the Lebedeva and Boon-Brettzpaper paper identifies as generating HF in wet conditions.

And HF Acid can go right though the skin and into your body--Causing many serious long term health issues too.

-Bill

OldMan · August 2018

BB. said:

I think some folks have become complacent about Lead Acid batteries too... Besides the fact that any of these large storage battery banks can output 100's to 1,000's of amps or more into a dead short (always use good wiring practices, fuses/breakers, proper gauge wire, and reasonablly fire resistant enclosures/construction), any of these batteries can catch fire if they are having problems (lead acid LiFePO4, etc.). And if they do not catch fire themselves, they can catch nearby stuff on fire, and/or spray some pretty toxic acids and materials around the area.

Installing a battery bank under my bed... Something that I would try to avoid. If you need to do this--Some sort of good insulative cover over the top of the batteries to prevent short circuits and stuff.

Li Ion batteries add a new dimension that worries me... The electrolyte used in some/many/all(?) chemistry Li Ion batteries can produce HydroFloric Acid (HF) that is highly toxic (44 ppm for 1 hour can cause death):

https://www.quora.com/Why-Hydrofluoric-HF-gas-is-not-considered-as-a-hazard-during-large-lithium-battery-fire
The hydrofluoric acid was described as a secondary result created when ”Reaction of a widely used electrolyte salt – LiPF6 – upon contact with water is known to result in the generation of gaseous HF.” But there’s usually water during accidents - fire hose, battery coolant. Humidity. The MSDS sheet on Hydrofluoric Acid is SCARY - only 44 ppm is lethal in an hour.
Tesla has been using the Panasonic 18650 cell. 6831 of them. It’s MSDS Sheet identifies the electrolyte as Lithium Hexaflurophosphate – Salt (LiPF6) the very salt the Lebedeva and Boon-Brettzpaper paper identifies as generating HF in wet conditions.
And HF Acid can go right though the skin and into your body--Causing many serious long term health issues too.

-Bill

Everyone, use what you like. I think many here are wedded to past technologies because they're afraid of change.

Or whatever.

I know what I'll be using. Lead acid scares me more. I've seen what battery acid does to the human face and it's not pretty. (Newspaper photographer for 30 years, you figure it out) In addition, lead-acid batteries weigh more than I can comfortably hoist, now. Neck and lower back surgeries. Finally, just as I would not buy a Radio Shack TRS-80 for a computer, I won't be using ancient technology for batteries, either. Only a backup generator (Honda 1000). I'll have 1KW of solar, pumping two 120AH 12V Shenzen batteries.

Enjoy life on your own terms!! That's what I do!!!

mike95490 · August 2018

The article at

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-batteries-robert-bean/
is bogus, good deepcycle FLA is rated for >3000 cycles ( HUP batteries w/10 yr warranty)

the blogger at humless

https://www.altenergymag.com/article/2017/08/lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-batteries/26928

has a few valid comparisons. but still overall, more sales pitch than accurate science

The battery U article

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/archive/lithium_ion_safety_concerns

mentions the critical role the BMS plays. And currently, many ChiCom BMS's are

too "streamlined" and even when the good ones are used, there are many laptop and phones that get toasty. They show photos of several failed/burned Li batteries. LFP are more resistant to fire, but if the cheap BMS goes, your batteries will go too, sooner or later.

But your mind is made up, and the 2 burnt shells of LFP systems I've seen are not going to influence you. (they were in a greenhouse in a "pot grow " in NorCal and photos not allowed)

I'd much rather see you successfully get 3 years out of a set of cheap golf cart batteries, and when you do that, you'll know enough to change to LFP.

mcgivor · August 2018

mike95490 said:

The article at
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-batteries-robert-bean/
is bogus, good deepcycle FLA is rated for >3000 cycles ( HUP batteries w/10 yr warranty)

the blogger at humless
https://www.altenergymag.com/article/2017/08/lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-batteries/26928
has a few valid comparisons. but still overall, more sales pitch than accurate science

The battery U article
https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/archive/lithium_ion_safety_concerns
mentions the critical role the BMS plays. And currently, many ChiCom BMS's are
too "streamlined" and even when the good ones are used, there are many laptop and phones that get toasty. They show photos of several failed/burned Li batteries. LFP are more resistant to fire, but if the cheap BMS goes, your batteries will go too, sooner or later.

But your mind is made up, and the 2 burnt shells of LFP systems I've seen are not going to influence you. (they were in a greenhouse in a "pot grow " in NorCal and photos not allowed)

I'd much rather see you successfully get 3 years out of a set of cheap golf cart batteries, and when you do that, you'll know enough to change to LFP.

There are always worst case scenario stories, a friend of mine was a weldor in the shipping industry, whilst welding on a deck a spark fell into a battery compartment below, igniting accumulated hydrogen gas from the lead acid battery bank, the shock wave buckled the steel deck and in the process liquefied the bones in his feet. He received a disability pension but had to live the rest of his life with club feet. Not dismissing the dangers of LFP, but there are dangers with most/all chemistrys, precautions and safeguards are nesesary, there must be some success stories with LFP, but they don't make the news, which is negative for the most part.

aksala · October 2018

Dave Angelini said:

I don't think that one needs to do this Mike. Design for a proper battery room that is a conditioned space. Not that hard to do unless one is leaving the home unattended. That is the real challenge to me and some of my clients in places like Alaska and Canada.

Agree Dave. If you recall my earlier posts I was looking at a rather large FLA battery bank with 24 2V cells. This was going to go into a walled off space within a garage. This presented its own set of issues and got me looking again at Lithium. I originally simply dismissed them as too expensive for the amount of Ah capacity I was shooting for. But that was before I started to educate myself on the differences on how they operate. I am now looking very seriously at a much smaller Ah bank of LiFePO4 with BMS and a Conext Bridge. I believe my costs will be about a wash, and I may have to run the generator more often in the winter but for considerably shorter duration. I also don't believe I need as much of a gennie to charge up the bank, so I save on the cost of the generator as well as fuel consumption. Then there is the reduced maintenance, acid, etc.. The only big BUT is the cold, but this is going into a year 'round occupied house and there will be a Toyo stove in the garage to keep things warmed up in there at least keeping things within their operating range.

karrak · October 2018

One of the huge advantages of LFP(LiFePO4) batteries over FLA is the ability to be charged at up to C/2 and discharged at 1C which means you can get by with a much smaller battery.

I am just about to install an off-grid system for a friend in a totally electric house where the water will be heated with a heat pump, all cooking will be electric in summer and electric and wood stove in winter.

The battery in this system has only around 10kWh of storage hooked up to ~5kW of solar panels and two 5kW inverters. If a backup generator is needed a small 2kW unit will suffice.

Simon

aksala · October 2018

@karrak

Out of curiosity, what battery will you be using for this install? I'm leaning heavily in favor of SimpliPhi because of the ease and cost associated with adding additional capacity in the future if desired. I like the fact that I can start with a fewer number of batteries and manage use, then add as necessary.

karrak · October 2018

I will be using 30 100Ah CALB cells with my own BMS for this project.

As far as I am aware most lithium battery based systems can have extra storage added at a later date. Lithium batteries don't suffer from the problems of a large drop in efficiency and needing longer "absorb" time as they get older which makes adding extra capacity to lead acid batteries far from ideal.

Simon

mcgivor · October 2018

aksala said:

@karrak

Out of curiosity, what battery will you be using for this install? I'm leaning heavily in favor of SimpliPhi because of the ease and cost associated with adding additional capacity in the future if desired. I like the fact that I can start with a fewer number of batteries and manage use, then add as necessary.

The SmpliPhi batteries will simplify the installation albeit at a higher cost versus a DIY system, they do provide information on how to program Schneider equipment to work with their batteries which I found particularly useful. Either way LFP is far superior in terms of performance compared to lead acid, charging times are dramatically reduced without generation of heat, which was the prime reason I made the switch, all other benefits are added bonuses.

softdown · October 2018

Lithium chemistry does offer some significant advantages. But I am perplexed at the folks who want to install such batteries under their beds. OP is not the first I have seen.

I might be OK with AGMs under the bed.

mcnutt13579 · October 2018

Where did this bed thing come from? Is it a joke or something?

BB. · October 2018

It was not this thread/poster... But we get quite a few "...I want to put the battery bank under my bed in my small appartment..."...

-Bill

softdown · October 2018

mcnutt13579 said:

Where did this bed thing come from? Is it a joke or something?

It was a different thread and OP, I got it confused with another posters thread wherein he wanted to place lithium batteries under his bed. Sparks have flown and hot gas has been expelled.

I don't honestly examine things as closely as I used to. Sure didn't mean to become a "hell raiser" though. Some folks get cantankerous when receiving well meaning advice.

I happen to own a Samsung GalaxyNote 7, the phone that achieved fame for lithium batteries catching on fire. Lithium batteries still have a reputation for being fire hazards.

As for the "toxic properties" of lead-acid battery acid? I'll be happy to immerse a hand in battery acid for $100 - I need the money. It would start to sting in a few seconds and would need to be washed off sooner rather than later. I've had battery acid on my skin over a dozen times, you just need to wash it off. Battery acid in the eyes is worse, I keep an eye rinser in the area.

Speaking of safety, I really believe that a lot of smoke detectors and fire extinguishers are an excellent investment for off gridders. The fire department is saving a foundation by the time they get to many rural settings. One of the reasons I have not felt a need to use a wood burning stove. Nothing is totally safe - of course.

Are Lithium Batteries the way to go?

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