Should I buy these batteries?

faccnator · August 2018

Hey all,

I have an opportunity to buy 8ea 12v batteries for $1500.00

In service since 2/1/17.

Owner says never less than 50% DOD.

Model is:

Outback Power EnergyCell 200NC (178AH)

Should I buy these? Is this a good value? If not, what is?

mcgivor · August 2018

Personally I would ask the question why is someone selling something that is perfectly good, buy new whenever possible, with a warranty that applies to you, the original purchasee, when something is too good to be true, it usually is, but then again one could get lucky, but luck is a gamble. If you know the seller as a trustworthy individual, perhaps, if not, it's face value, many years of wheeling and dealing have taught me some lessons.

westbranch · August 2018

Why is he selling them after only a year and a half ?

faccnator · August 2018

Thanks good point. I have asked the seller. I guess I’m trying to determine what is a fair price for a used battery. Hard to say I suppose. Does anyone have any information on that particular battery?

Estragon · August 2018

You could (but not necessarily should) buy 16 brand new golf cart batteries for about the same price and ~25% more (rated) capacity, just for comparison. If P.O. "only" discharged the used ones to 50%, but left them sitting at that state of charge, they might still have lost significant capacity.

If seriously considering, I'd recommend load testing. Being AGMs, you can't check SG, so ...

faccnator · August 2018

So I’m getting the impression the forum doesn’t “like” these batteries. I currently use 4 “sams” 6v golf cart batteries and want to expand and happened to see this offering on Craigslist near me. At 1/3 the price it seemed work looking at.

Marc Kurth · August 2018

I think that what you are hearing is: "Well, it may or may not be a good deal"

Without load testing, you have no idea of what you are getting. Asking a seller why they are getting rid of something can be very misleading.

Marc

faccnator · August 2018

What about the battery itself?

I only have experience with standard lead acid. I’ve never bought a carbon nano super super ultra tastic battery. Also I had planned to go with 2v cells in a series for my upgrade and not a bunch of parallel cells. Any opinions on that?

Estragon · August 2018

I haven't read much about those specific batteries (probably a good indicator - you tend to hear when people have problems, not when they don't).

The thing with these is they're basically an AGM battery. I have no opinion on the super-carbon-fragilistic thing, and certainly all AGM batteries aren't created equal. That said, AGMs generally have pros and cons, which may or may not make sense in a given application.

For higher AH banks, bigger 2v batteries with fewer parallel strings makes a lot of sense to me.

softdown · August 2018

Sometimes it is best to trust ones gut. There is no way that us internet sleuths can properly evaluate used batteries without more data that may not be available.

Outback would not put their hallowed name on something that was not first class.

Truly healthy and very freshly charged batteries should usually show about 12.7-12.8 volts at normal room temperature.

Marc Kurth · August 2018

In general, they seem to be an OK battery line - similar to Deka/Trojan AGM's - likely manufactured by one of them. Nothing magical or even special about the product line. I have several PV contractor customers who have used them, but they generally seem to drift away from the product line over time.

Certainly a cut above the typical cheap AGM's mass marketed by Vision and Ritar, under a multitude names.

Marc

Marc Kurth · August 2018

softdown said:

Sometimes it is best to trust ones gut. There is no way that us internet sleuths can properly evaluate used batteries without more data that may not be available.
Outback would not put their hallowed name on something that was not first class.
Truly healthy and very freshly charged batteries should usually show about 12.7-12.8 volts at normal room temperature.

Yes, indeed this is true for for many brands, but not all.

13.0v (regardless of temperature) is a new, fully charged battery from Concorde.

I would expect 12.8v five to six to eight years down the road.

12.9v is typical at 3-4 years old, assuming a full charge - measured 6-24 hours after charging or discharging.

I post this as a reminder that not all batteries are created equal.

Marc

2manytoyz · August 2018

Those were pricey batteries to begin with, but "I" wouldn't buy a used set of batteries.

I bought 5 NPP NPD12-200Ah batteries. 12V, 200AH AGM batteries. These are $364 each on Amazon, and come with a 2 year warranty. 4 would be $1460 delivered! That's cheaper than the used one. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J94RBDG/

Details on my setup here: http://www.2manytoyz.com/agm-batt-bank.html

Very pleased with mine so far.

bill von novak · August 2018

2manytoyz said:

Those were pricey batteries to begin with, but "I" wouldn't buy a used set of batteries.

I bought 5 NPP NPD12-200Ah batteries. 12V, 200AH AGM batteries. These are $364 each on Amazon, and come with a 2 year warranty. 4 would be $1460 delivered!

Just a note here -

Those are gel, not AGM, and look like they are intended for UPS applications. They are spec'd for a cycle life of ~550 cycles to 50% charge. So depending on how you use them you may just be able to claim that warranty and get 4 years out of the same $$.

softdown · August 2018

I was very surprised to see gel deep cycle batteries enjoying so much popularity in the sailboat community last year. Pretty sharp group though maybe not as sharp as they like to think, I did leave with the impression that it is possible for gels to be good deep cycle batteries. Though 550 cycles to 50% charge would be simply abysmal performance for a $364 solar battery.

Estragon · August 2018

As a sailor myself, I'd have to say sailors aren't all that great at battery stuff. You'd think otherwise, but...

bill von novak · August 2018

softdown said:

Though 550 cycles to 50% charge would be simply abysmal performance for a $364 solar battery.

It's not really a solar battery; it's a UPS battery. On the manufacturer's site it lists applications for this battery:

Emergency light systems
Standby power supply
UPS and computer standby power supply
Power supply
Solar system
Wind system
Telecommunication system
Firefighting equipment standby power supply
Railway system
Power station

All but two of those are UPS applications.

softdown · August 2018

bill von novak said:

softdown said:

Though 550 cycles to 50% charge would be simply abysmal performance for a $364 solar battery.

It's not really a solar battery; it's a UPS battery. On the manufacturer's site it lists applications for this battery:

Emergency light systems
Standby power supply
UPS and computer standby power supply
Power supply
Solar system
Wind system
Telecommunication system
Firefighting equipment standby power supply
Railway system
Power station

All but two of those are UPS applications.

I have seen UPS gel batteries last a very long time. Might be the right choice if one has enough that the voltage rarely drops below 12.5 volts. Mostly speculation on my part, I tend to study batteries as a hobby.

softdown · August 2018

Estragon said:

As a sailor myself, I'd have to say sailors aren't all that great at battery stuff. You'd think otherwise, but...

I was referring to liveaboard sailors with solar arrays. They also strongly preferred solar panels over wind energy in spite of the fact that sailboats encounter a lot of wind.

My protests about deep cycle gel batteries were met with a .....deafening silence.

bill von novak · August 2018

softdown said:

I have seen UPS gel batteries last a very long time. Might be the right choice if one has enough that the voltage rarely drops below 12.5 volts. Mostly speculation on my part, I tend to study batteries as a hobby.

Yes - but if they never drop below 12.5 volts (about 80% charge) that's very similar to a UPS application. (Note that any lead acid battery will last a very long time if you don't discharge it more than 20%.)

softdown · August 2018

bill von novak said:

softdown said:

I have seen UPS gel batteries last a very long time. Might be the right choice if one has enough that the voltage rarely drops below 12.5 volts. Mostly speculation on my part, I tend to study batteries as a hobby.

Yes - but if they never drop below 12.5 volts (about 80% charge) that's very similar to a UPS application. (Note that any lead acid battery will last a very long time if you don't discharge it more than 20%.)

Not sure of the credibility but I have seen claims of UPS gels lasting for 20 some years. Seems a bit of a stretch.

bill von novak · August 2018

softdown said:

Not sure of the credibility but I have seen claims of UPS gels lasting for 20 some years. Seems a bit of a stretch.

I definitely believe that. We have UPS batteries here that we change out at 10 year intervals, but are like new (I've tested them.) Floating a gel cell forever is the best way to take care of it.

Marc Kurth · August 2018

Buying used batteries is like asking "How long is a piece of string?"

It depends............

Marc

faccnator · August 2018

Well I ended up buying the used batteries

The seller actually reads these forums and is a super nice couple. They gave me a great deal and I picked them up last night.

After meeting them I’m sure they are in great shape

ill keep the forum updated as to their performance.

tr0y · September 2018

bill von novak said:

2manytoyz said:

Those were pricey batteries to begin with, but "I" wouldn't buy a used set of batteries.

I bought 5 NPP NPD12-200Ah batteries. 12V, 200AH AGM batteries. These are $364 each on Amazon, and come with a 2 year warranty. 4 would be $1460 delivered!

Just a note here -

Those are gel, not AGM, and look like they are intended for UPS applications. They are spec'd for a cycle life of ~550 cycles to 50% charge. So depending on how you use them you may just be able to claim that warranty and get 4 years out of the same $$.

@bill @bill von novak
Where do you see that these are gel and not AGM ? If you go to NPP's site the gel batteries advertised are different looking and different configuration.

littleharbor2 · September 2018

Everything I see tells me AGM.

bill von novak · September 2018

tr0y said:

Where do you see that these are gel and not AGM ? If you go to NPP's site the gel batteries advertised are different looking and different configuration.

You may be right. I was looking at a site that advertised them as gel batteries, but I looked up the data sheet and it says AGM.

2manytoyz · November 2019

bill von novak said:

2manytoyz said:

Those were pricey batteries to begin with, but "I" wouldn't buy a used set of batteries.

I bought 5 NPP NPD12-200Ah batteries. 12V, 200AH AGM batteries. These are $364 each on Amazon, and come with a 2 year warranty. 4 would be $1460 delivered!

Just a note here -

Those are gel, not AGM, and look like they are intended for UPS applications. They are spec'd for a cycle life of ~550 cycles to 50% charge. So depending on how you use them you may just be able to claim that warranty and get 4 years out of the same $$.

Image: http://www.2manytoyz.com/hardware/AGM/img_3097.jpg

Says AGM on the box.

2manytoyz · November 2019

I realize this is an older thread, but I have an important update about these NPP batteries. Mine just failed after 1.5 years of gentle use. SOC was never below 80%, and often 85-90% by morning. They would charge to 96%+ via solar, otherwise they were topped off with an IOTA 75A charger.

About a week ago, my low voltage alarm on my inverter sounded at 4AM. Xantrex LinkPRO showed the battery bank at 87%, but the 1000AH battery bank was down to 11.1V.

The loads were disconnected, and the batteries were completely recharged. I disconnected each one (of 5), and applied a 100A load tester. The voltage immediately dropped below 11V, and showed them to be on the edge of "weak". Keep in mind, these are 200AH batteries, rated at supplying 1400A for 5 seconds!

Image: http://www.2manytoyz.com/hardware/AGM/IMG_8760.jpg

Image: http://www.2manytoyz.com/hardware/AGM/IMG_8768.jpg

While I can find examples of NPP having a 2 year warranty on these in the past, when I click on the highlighted links, the ads now all show only 1 year. Obviously a known issue. I've found similar reviews after I bought mine.

Image: http://www.2manytoyz.com/hardware/AGM/2-year-warranty-large.jpg

I contacted NPP (the seller via Amazon). They simply said they have a 1 year warranty (now), and offered no support, nor were interested in how they were used, or why they failed. Amazon now lists it as "unavailable". That was an $1825 mistake. I will be sharing my experience with this product on the various forums, my website, my YouTube channel, and on the Amazon reviews. I will be using these as a core exchange, and buying golf cart 6V batteries once again. Those typically last me 5-6 years in hot FL.

littleharbor2 · November 2019

5 paralleled AGM batteries would be pretty much impossible to evenly charge. I had a bank of 8 AGM's in 4 strings that I managed to get 4 1/2 years out of. I was lucky to get that much life out of them apparently. I did have them on buss bars and equal length cabling to all of them though.

Marc Kurth · November 2019

All brands of AGM batteries are not created equal......

I just sold a replacement set of (32) L16 AGM's to replace the originals bought from me 8.5 years ago. This is a 100% off grid home, occupied full time in Central Texas. Four strings of eight for 1600 ah at 48v. This is not unusual, as I am seeing a lot replacements that I sold 7-10 years ago.

Marc

Should I buy these batteries?

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