Should I buy these batteries?
faccnator
Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭✭
Hey all,
I have an opportunity to buy 8ea 12v batteries for $1500.00
In service since 2/1/17.
Owner says never less than 50% DOD.
Model is:
Outback Power EnergyCell 200NC (178AH)
Should I buy these? Is this a good value? If not, what is?
I have an opportunity to buy 8ea 12v batteries for $1500.00
In service since 2/1/17.
Owner says never less than 50% DOD.
Model is:
Outback Power EnergyCell 200NC (178AH)
Should I buy these? Is this a good value? If not, what is?
Comments
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Personally I would ask the question why is someone selling something that is perfectly good, buy new whenever possible, with a warranty that applies to you, the original purchasee, when something is too good to be true, it usually is, but then again one could get lucky, but luck is a gamble. If you know the seller as a trustworthy individual, perhaps, if not, it's face value, many years of wheeling and dealing have taught me some lessons.1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding. -
Why is he selling them after only a year and a half ?
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
Thanks good point. I have asked the seller. I guess I’m trying to determine what is a fair price for a used battery. Hard to say I suppose. Does anyone have any information on that particular battery?
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You could (but not necessarily should) buy 16 brand new golf cart batteries for about the same price and ~25% more (rated) capacity, just for comparison. If P.O. "only" discharged the used ones to 50%, but left them sitting at that state of charge, they might still have lost significant capacity.
If seriously considering, I'd recommend load testing. Being AGMs, you can't check SG, so ...Off-grid.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter -
So I’m getting the impression the forum doesn’t “like” these batteries. I currently use 4 “sams” 6v golf cart batteries and want to expand and happened to see this offering on Craigslist near me. At 1/3 the price it seemed work looking at.
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I think that what you are hearing is: "Well, it may or may not be a good deal"Without load testing, you have no idea of what you are getting. Asking a seller why they are getting rid of something can be very misleading.MarcI always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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What about the battery itself?
I only have experience with standard lead acid. I’ve never bought a carbon nano super super ultra tastic battery. Also I had planned to go with 2v cells in a series for my upgrade and not a bunch of parallel cells. Any opinions on that? -
I haven't read much about those specific batteries (probably a good indicator - you tend to hear when people have problems, not when they don't).
The thing with these is they're basically an AGM battery. I have no opinion on the super-carbon-fragilistic thing, and certainly all AGM batteries aren't created equal. That said, AGMs generally have pros and cons, which may or may not make sense in a given application.
For higher AH banks, bigger 2v batteries with fewer parallel strings makes a lot of sense to me.Off-grid.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter -
Sometimes it is best to trust ones gut. There is no way that us internet sleuths can properly evaluate used batteries without more data that may not be available.
Outback would not put their hallowed name on something that was not first class.
Truly healthy and very freshly charged batteries should usually show about 12.7-12.8 volts at normal room temperature.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
In general, they seem to be an OK battery line - similar to Deka/Trojan AGM's - likely manufactured by one of them. Nothing magical or even special about the product line. I have several PV contractor customers who have used them, but they generally seem to drift away from the product line over time.Certainly a cut above the typical cheap AGM's mass marketed by Vision and Ritar, under a multitude names.MarcI always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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softdown said:Sometimes it is best to trust ones gut. There is no way that us internet sleuths can properly evaluate used batteries without more data that may not be available.
Outback would not put their hallowed name on something that was not first class.Truly healthy and very freshly charged batteries should usually show about 12.7-12.8 volts at normal room temperature.Yes, indeed this is true for for many brands, but not all.13.0v (regardless of temperature) is a new, fully charged battery from Concorde.I would expect 12.8v five to six to eight years down the road.12.9v is typical at 3-4 years old, assuming a full charge - measured 6-24 hours after charging or discharging.I post this as a reminder that not all batteries are created equal.MarcI always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life. -
Those were pricey batteries to begin with, but "I" wouldn't buy a used set of batteries.
I bought 5 NPP NPD12-200Ah batteries. 12V, 200AH AGM batteries. These are $364 each on Amazon, and come with a 2 year warranty. 4 would be $1460 delivered! That's cheaper than the used one. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J94RBDG/
Details on my setup here: http://www.2manytoyz.com/agm-batt-bank.html
Very pleased with mine so far.
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2manytoyz said:Those were pricey batteries to begin with, but "I" wouldn't buy a used set of batteries.
I bought 5 NPP NPD12-200Ah batteries. 12V, 200AH AGM batteries. These are $364 each on Amazon, and come with a 2 year warranty. 4 would be $1460 delivered!
Those are gel, not AGM, and look like they are intended for UPS applications. They are spec'd for a cycle life of ~550 cycles to 50% charge. So depending on how you use them you may just be able to claim that warranty and get 4 years out of the same $$. -
I was very surprised to see gel deep cycle batteries enjoying so much popularity in the sailboat community last year. Pretty sharp group though maybe not as sharp as they like to think, I did leave with the impression that it is possible for gels to be good deep cycle batteries. Though 550 cycles to 50% charge would be simply abysmal performance for a $364 solar battery.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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As a sailor myself, I'd have to say sailors aren't all that great at battery stuff. You'd think otherwise, but...Off-grid.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter -
softdown said:Though 550 cycles to 50% charge would be simply abysmal performance for a $364 solar battery.
Emergency light systems
Standby power supply
UPS and computer standby power supply
Power supply
Solar system
Wind system
Telecommunication system
Firefighting equipment standby power supply
Railway system
Power station
All but two of those are UPS applications. -
bill von novak said:softdown said:Though 550 cycles to 50% charge would be simply abysmal performance for a $364 solar battery.
Emergency light systems
Standby power supply
UPS and computer standby power supply
Power supply
Solar system
Wind system
Telecommunication system
Firefighting equipment standby power supply
Railway system
Power station
All but two of those are UPS applications.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
Estragon said:As a sailor myself, I'd have to say sailors aren't all that great at battery stuff. You'd think otherwise, but...I was referring to liveaboard sailors with solar arrays. They also strongly preferred solar panels over wind energy in spite of the fact that sailboats encounter a lot of wind.
My protests about deep cycle gel batteries were met with a .....deafening silence.First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
softdown said:
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bill von novak said:softdown said:First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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softdown said:
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Buying used batteries is like asking "How long is a piece of string?"It depends............MarcI always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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Well I ended up buying the used batteries
The seller actually reads these forums and is a super nice couple. They gave me a great deal and I picked them up last night.
After meeting them I’m sure they are in great shape
ill keep the forum updated as to their performance. -
bill von novak said:2manytoyz said:Those were pricey batteries to begin with, but "I" wouldn't buy a used set of batteries.
I bought 5 NPP NPD12-200Ah batteries. 12V, 200AH AGM batteries. These are $364 each on Amazon, and come with a 2 year warranty. 4 would be $1460 delivered!
Those are gel, not AGM, and look like they are intended for UPS applications. They are spec'd for a cycle life of ~550 cycles to 50% charge. So depending on how you use them you may just be able to claim that warranty and get 4 years out of the same $$.
Where do you see that these are gel and not AGM ? If you go to NPP's site the gel batteries advertised are different looking and different configuration. -
Everything I see tells me AGM.
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
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tr0y said:
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bill von novak said:2manytoyz said:Those were pricey batteries to begin with, but "I" wouldn't buy a used set of batteries.
I bought 5 NPP NPD12-200Ah batteries. 12V, 200AH AGM batteries. These are $364 each on Amazon, and come with a 2 year warranty. 4 would be $1460 delivered!
Those are gel, not AGM, and look like they are intended for UPS applications. They are spec'd for a cycle life of ~550 cycles to 50% charge. So depending on how you use them you may just be able to claim that warranty and get 4 years out of the same $$.Says AGM on the box.
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I realize this is an older thread, but I have an important update about these NPP batteries. Mine just failed after 1.5 years of gentle use. SOC was never below 80%, and often 85-90% by morning. They would charge to 96%+ via solar, otherwise they were topped off with an IOTA 75A charger.About a week ago, my low voltage alarm on my inverter sounded at 4AM. Xantrex LinkPRO showed the battery bank at 87%, but the 1000AH battery bank was down to 11.1V.The loads were disconnected, and the batteries were completely recharged. I disconnected each one (of 5), and applied a 100A load tester. The voltage immediately dropped below 11V, and showed them to be on the edge of "weak". Keep in mind, these are 200AH batteries, rated at supplying 1400A for 5 seconds!While I can find examples of NPP having a 2 year warranty on these in the past, when I click on the highlighted links, the ads now all show only 1 year. Obviously a known issue. I've found similar reviews after I bought mine.I contacted NPP (the seller via Amazon). They simply said they have a 1 year warranty (now), and offered no support, nor were interested in how they were used, or why they failed. Amazon now lists it as "unavailable". That was an $1825 mistake. I will be sharing my experience with this product on the various forums, my website, my YouTube channel, and on the Amazon reviews. I will be using these as a core exchange, and buying golf cart 6V batteries once again. Those typically last me 5-6 years in hot FL.
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5 paralleled AGM batteries would be pretty much impossible to evenly charge. I had a bank of 8 AGM's in 4 strings that I managed to get 4 1/2 years out of. I was lucky to get that much life out of them apparently. I did have them on buss bars and equal length cabling to all of them though.
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
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All brands of AGM batteries are not created equal......I just sold a replacement set of (32) L16 AGM's to replace the originals bought from me 8.5 years ago. This is a 100% off grid home, occupied full time in Central Texas. Four strings of eight for 1600 ah at 48v. This is not unusual, as I am seeing a lot replacements that I sold 7-10 years ago.MarcI always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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