We pump about 6,400 gallons a day from 3 wells with tracked solar arrays and a experimental diesel.

raysubtropical
raysubtropical Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
in Solar Water Pumping #1
Our current fuel consumption is 4 hours per gallon with about a 1,000 watt load (grundfos submersible with 260' of head or 113 PSI) using an early kubota water cooled two cylinder engine and a 4KW meccalte generator head. My current interest is to improve on this....so Ive combined an early air cooled single yamaha diesel to a ST-5 chinese head. (i call it my frankenstein generator). Last night i ran this 4 pole head at about 1800RPM for 13 hours on 1.75 gallons of diesel. Same load but no power robbing water pump or electric radiator fan. Since I'm still in shock about the numbers...i'm repeating the test tonight. We operate an off-grid fruit farm and would like to share our information and experience. Pictures on request...till I can figure out how to post them.  
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
    I think you have made a mistake with the consumption measurement.
    I run a single cyl diesel, water cooled (thermosiphon, no pump) and a 4 pole ST-5 head, and consume a bit over a quart an hour, with 2600w load.  While it's not the most efficient 1930's model, it's not horrible either.  Figure a properly loaded diesel produces 3/3ds power,
    1/3 into the alternator, 1/3 heat lost out the exhaust, 1/3 in the cooling .
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018 #3
    raysubtropical said:
    Our current fuel consumption is 4 hours per gallon with about a 1,000 watt load (grundfos submersible with 260' of head or 113 PSI) using an early kubota water cooled two cylinder engine and a 4KW meccalte generator head. My current interest is to improve on this....so Ive combined an early air cooled single yamaha diesel to a ST-5 chinese head. (i call it my frankenstein generator). Last night i ran this 4 pole head at about 1800RPM for 13 hours on 1.75 gallons of diesel. Same load but no power robbing water pump or electric radiator fan. Since I'm still in shock about the numbers...i'm repeating the test tonight. We operate an off-grid fruit farm and would like to share our information and experience. Pictures on request...till I can figure out how to post them.  
    Yamaha? Or is that Yanmar with auto mistake spelling?  Diesel fuel contains around 37 Kw per US gallon, 1.75 gallons would be 64.75 Kw, at 20% efficiency of the diesel engine, the approximate available energy would be 12.9Kw. The 1Kw load over 13 hours is 13 Kw, so the numbers are close, add a few points to the efficiency percentage,  sounds about right, but is the improvement in efficiency due to the Kubota operating outside it's peak in the torque curve? As an example my pickup is a six speed manual 2.5 liter diesel, if driven at 80 Kmh in 6th.gear, it will consume more fuel than if driven in 5th. according to the on board graphic display, in 5th it displays 5.2 l/100 Km (45 MPG/US gallon )in 6th it's 6.7l/100Km (35 MPG/US gallon ) the RPM in 6th. is ~1750RPM, in 5th. It's ~2000 RPM, which is where the torque peak is, actually it's wider due,to variable geometry turbo, but the point is operating below or above the torque peak is inefficient. Most likely the setup on your frankenstein generator is a good match with the diesel operating in its sweet spot and thanks for sharing your observations. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Roughly... 129000 btu/gal of diesel x 1.75 gals used ÷ 3.4 btu/watt ÷ 13hrs = ~5kw/hr ?

    1kw/hr = 20% thermal efficiency?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018 #5
    12900 BTU= 37 KwW 
    12900 × 1.75= 225750 btu
    225750btu = 66Kw
    20%☆ of 66Kw is 13.2 Kw
    13 hours × 1Kw☆☆ = 13 Kw
    all figures rounded off.

    ☆20% is diesel engine efficiency 
    ☆☆pump load

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Where are you located and what type of tracking are you running? Please send the pix as I am always interested in tracking and have been tracking for quite some time. My e-mail is below. Subtropics is where please?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • jonr
    jonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018 #7
    > but the point is operating below or above the torque peak is inefficient

    A diesel's best efficiency (BSFC) operating point is typically around the rpm that produces max torque and at about 80% of max torque - but it doesn't have to be right at it.    This point might produce about 1/2 of the rated HP.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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  • raysubtropical
    raysubtropical Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    #8
    Wow... I don't even know how to respond to all these positive responses...and this ensuing discussion...yes its no typo..."YAMAHA"...not a "YANMAR"...diesel..air cooled single....maybe 6hp on a rainy day or less. Ive been running it to failure (12-16hr) stretches at night...now it smokes so and i may have gummed up the 4 spray (novel idea) injector with all my pump additives. My fuel measurements are pretty close. I even brought the voltage down to (180VAC=990w) (185VAC=1073w) (my dynamic head of 310' can be controlled by splitting off flows to lower tanks. I reduced pump flows to minimize cycling and cavitation to better match the well's output. I'm not going to get into efficiency or energy calcs....just experiment and share results. I have a lombardini and yanmar single (similar construction and outputs) that I'm dying to test. I'm in a search for another 120/240 4 pole head in the 3Kw size so i can do some more testing. The 3KW will be easier on the love joy connectors. Getting the engine and head aligned takes some time and practice. I currently have one well's 11SQF-2 failure so I'm pressed to pump from my other two stressed wells. I'm in a subtropic coastal area in N san diego county. I think this yanmar may outperform a lister or lister clone based on what i'm hearing. Maybe less flywheel/crank/piston mass and better fuel atomization?? My second concern was the intense pressure wave (racket) a 3,600 RPM diesel makes. After cutting the RPM in half it reduced noise by at least 3/4. My solar trackers are zomeworks and I totally endorse them. My solar pumps are all grundfos and I totally do not endorse them. I tried to end on a positive note.
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  • raysubtropical
    raysubtropical Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    #9
    If I can get a little help i'll gladly post or I can send pictures from my i-phone....
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Thanks for the pix! What did your second Yamaha test show?

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • raysubtropical
    raysubtropical Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    #11
    Your welcome on the pics... Second fuel run was almost the same ...about 8 hr run on a gallon and 3/4. Maybe due to the slower engine cycle I'm not getting the pop off pressure to fully atomize the fuel. Its running and smoking tonight and tomorrow i'll check the valve clearance. According to yanmar users the valves have a tendency to settle or change adjustment and should be checked after 1,000 hours or less. Not sure if Yamaha has hardened valve seats. Yanmars require ring replacement after 2,000 hours service. So I don't think early yamahas had any better metallurgy. Unfortunately this Yamaha was without any history or manuals. The gen head was DOA from operating inside a motorhome. (probably excess heat). Engine starts on 1st or second revolution.  
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
    The color of the smoke will indicate to some degree the cause, this link has some useful information with regards to this. 
    http://www.cnducoo.com/the-analysis-of-diesel-engine-exhaust-smoke.html
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Compression "might" be helped by valve adjust. Good Luck!   Old Isuzu diesel engines used in about all trucking refrigeration easily ran for 5,000 + hours.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • raysubtropical
    raysubtropical Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    #14
    Got up early (beautiful day) and switched over to solar. Yamaha valves..intake was on tight side...(also a cam for effortless starts)..exhaust was close to .08...adjusted both to .010... pulled single injector cleaned tip (black carbon) and squirted some lucas treatment down inlet. started puff of smoke and then clear. reconnected with a load way less smoke but an improvement. Glad its not valves or a ring issue. If i get 6 months use out of it...i'm $$$ ahead. then i'll put the yanmar or lombardini to work....happy to send or share pictures of the frankenstein generator.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Cheap and unbelievable way to clean the combustion chambers  - Water mist.    Pull the air cleaner off, select a spray bottle that gives a good mist, and after the engine is hot and loaded up (you want it hot) spritz water fog into the intake.  the droplets will flash to vapor and steam clean the chambers.  Been doing that once a week with my genset past 3 years, and have avoided at least 3 de-carbon tear-down cycles.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Mike this works on 2 cycle motors (outboards) as well, just have to have them in a barrel, way easier than  on a lake... :):)
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    What make is your tracker Ray?  Ever think of using something like this for pumping?

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009YHRMG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • raysubtropical
    raysubtropical Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    #18
    Not sure about carbon buildup on the air cooled yamaha..(the exhaust area is very clean)..the water cooled kubota is another story...harder to ignite and leaves carbon blackened vegetation near the ex pipe area. The yamaha valve adjustment really helped clean up that exhaust soot.

    All zomeworks gas trackers are either purchased new or well used craig lister's....and one is old school array technologies (and currently one axis is dead) so i have it in fixed mode.
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  • raysubtropical
    raysubtropical Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    #19
    The little giant water pump in the link is a joke...max head is 29 feet....i'm pumping over 250" and DC solar direct by day and 80 volts AC by generator...all night long.....we are in a canyon with a 2 to 1 slope...this farm is a real workout for pumps and only screw or helical rotor types can provide the head pressures and 2,000' of pipe to survive. A vane pump will not reach our tanks.
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  • raysubtropical
    raysubtropical Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
    #20
    I just ordered another set of lovejoy L-150 couplers and will link a air cooled lambardini diesel (electric start) to an 8KW 4 pole head. I know the head is way over-kill but its better to put these parts to work and plan to operate very close to 1,800 rpm so the inverter will accept the wave form for charging and water pumping. The current gas harbor freight unit uses about double the fuel and with california gas and diesel approaching 4/gallon one has to get creative.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Let me know if you need parts for the Array Technology equipment. I am a dealer for them. Which axis is dead? 

    What kind of fruit?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • jonr
    jonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    20% efficiency is pretty typical for a small generator.  30-40% occurs only in large diesel generators.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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