Wisdom of underground shed/shelter instead of above ground shed for the off gridder?

softdown · February 2018

Keep thinking of positive attributes of below ground storage.
So many perishables will last so much longer. Food, batteries-all kinds, medicine, wine, etc.
Almost no extreme weather will destroy an underground shed.
Yields protection from neutron bombs and varying protection from EMP's and solar flares.
Hidey hole from zombies. I
nvisibility from FLIR heat detection units with just a couple feet of dirt.
Well insulated for almost nothing.
Probably only one entry point so much easier to defend.
Long been considered the best protection from a nuclear blast.
Mostly invisible to thieves and vandals....which I struggle with.
Little temperature fluctuation.
The advantages go on......

littleharbor2 · February 2018

softdown said:

Keep thinking of positive attributes of below ground storage.
So many perishables will last so much longer. Food, batteries-all kinds, medicine, wine, etc.
Almost no extreme weather will destroy an underground shed.
Yields protection from neutron bombs and varying protection from EMP's and solar flares.
Hidey hole from zombies. I
nvisibility from FLIR heat detection units with just a couple feet of dirt.
Well insulated for almost nothing.
Probably only one entry point so much easier to defend.
Long been considered the best protection from a nuclear blast.
Mostly invisible to thieves and vandals....which I struggle with.
Little temperature fluctuation.
The advantages go on......

All good points. Let's not forget the "cool factor". Not everybody would see the cool factor. I do.

softdown · February 2018

littleharbor2 said:

softdown said:

Keep thinking of positive attributes of below ground storage.
So many perishables will last so much longer. Food, batteries-all kinds, medicine, wine, etc.
Almost no extreme weather will destroy an underground shed.
Yields protection from neutron bombs and varying protection from EMP's and solar flares.
Hidey hole from zombies. I
nvisibility from FLIR heat detection units with just a couple feet of dirt.
Well insulated for almost nothing.
Probably only one entry point so much easier to defend.
Long been considered the best protection from a nuclear blast.
Mostly invisible to thieves and vandals....which I struggle with.
Little temperature fluctuation.
The advantages go on......

All good points. Let's not forget the "cool factor". Not everybody would see the cool factor. I do.

I wonder about cooling a home with air drawn from an underground "apparatus". Must not be too easy or one would see more plans for it's use.

mcgivor · February 2018

@softdown this may be of interest to you

http://metro.co.uk/2015/05/28/theres-a-whole-town-in-australia-that-lives-underground-5219091/

Estragon · February 2018

You wouldn't want to use air drawn directly from underground for cooling. It wouldn't work very well anyway, as the first few inches would dry and warm up pretty fast unless the surface area exposed was huge. The main reason not to do it though is possible earth gases and/or microbes and spores in the dirt.

Cooling (and heating) can and is done indirectly with a ground source pump. It's quite efficient, but still uses more electricity than is practcal for most of us off-gridders.

littleharbor2 · February 2018

Funny, I was referring to the Wow, cool factor. Though I am contemplating a subterranean battery vault for my batteries, in Baja.

softdown · February 2018

mcgivor said:

@softdown this may be of interest to you

http://metro.co.uk/2015/05/28/theres-a-whole-town-in-australia-that-lives-underground-5219091/

Thanks....yes that would help with 104F heat. Looks like they dig into limestone which would be pretty nice.

softdown · February 2018

littleharbor2 said:

Funny, I was referring to the Wow, cool factor. Though I am contemplating a subterranean battery vault for my batteries, in Baja.

Baja, California has intrigued me for well over a decade now. Appears to be mostly desert with temperatures cooled by Pacific breezes if one is close enough to the ocean.....much like San Diego and L.A.

How is the soil? Sandy? Limestone? Rocky? Hard to dig? Easy to dig? Stable? Unstable?

Having learned that we are now spending more on pills than we are on fossil fuels, the "storm clouds" have grown more ominous in my eyes. Having been initially raised in Spain, I have always enjoyed the "latin culture". They like to have fun....as a rule. I ran www.bigmexicanwedding.com for awhile. Took awhile to recover from some of those events.

I have a Case backhoe/trencher by the way. Hasn't been fired up in awhile though.

Dave Angelini · February 2018

Take a 2 week drive to Baja! It is alot more than desert and ocean. The Sea of Cortez and and the tall mountain ranges are outstanding.
Warning Will, you might not want to come back

oil pan 4 · February 2018

The earth's atmosphere and magnetic field provide all the protection you need from solar flare unless you have long distance power lines or a satellite.
Solar flares are not going to harm anything smaller than the power grid at ground level.

My best friend uses his basement to help cool his house. The homes hvac was isolated from the basement so he was running 2 dehumidifiers to help keep the basement dry. He changed the ducting around so it draws air from the basement, and got rid of the dehumidifiers he says doing those 2 things drops his power bill $100 a month in the summer.

softdown · February 2018

Dave Angelini said:

Take a 2 week drive to Baja! It is alot more than desert and ocean. The Sea of Cortez and and the tall mountain ranges are outstanding.
Warning Will, you might not want to come back

Great idea, I was studying that area back in 2007. My dad said "Mexico.....they keep your house when you die". Me "Who cares, I have no children". However....it seems that opinions vary on that...along with almost everything.

Yes....I need to take a trip. The current challenge of pulling a 20' trailer to southern Florida and doing roofing and repairs is pretty daunting for a 59 year old. Wish I was in my 20's right now.....I could work 16 hour days then.

Keep going back and forth on the risks of hiring a stranger in Colorado to help with driving and chores. Might work out....might not. Seems that almost all men snore. Can't sleep with that going on.

The "Hotel California" was For Sale when I was looking. Probably wish I could have swung that. Nobody knows if it is the subject of the Eagles song but I wouldn't discourage the idea if I owned it. http://hotelcaliforniabaja.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm3b4_XLCOU

Dave Angelini · February 2018

I don't think it was. When I was there in Todos Santos they played up the Eagles but it was there before them. The beaches are perfect though even if it is a bit close to San Diego south or Cabo San Lucas. You can miss that easily.

Florida is daunting to me also! We got there in 1995 expecting it to be like 1985. All the places we had been planning to anchor were now 2 bedroom condos. They would watch us with binoculars at happy hour. Florida was a short cruise in 1995.

My take on underground is that all of the good is negated by the bad if home power equipment is down there. It needs to be watched and observed. It can't be an ordeal to peak at. Same for sheds.

BB. · February 2018

Here is the variation in ground temperature vs depth:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatures.htm

-Bill

softdown · February 2018

BB. said:

Here is the variation in ground temperature vs depth:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/EarthTemperatures.htm

-Bill

Thanks...that gets a bit technical pretty fast. I'm not going 300'. Nor am I going 30' More like, I am thinking, 3'.....the roof being about 3' below the surface. The floor maybe being 12'....I like tall ceilings due to my height and storage augmentation.

Being cold in the morning and hot in the afternoon is less than ideal. On the other hand, the lack of sunshine poses other significant challenges.

softdown · February 2018

Dave Angelini said:

I don't think it was. When I was there in Todos Santos they played up the Eagles but it was there before them. The beaches are perfect though even if it is a bit close to San Diego south or Cabo San Lucas. You can miss that easily.

Florida is daunting to me also! We got there in 1995 expecting it to be like 1985. All the places we had been planning to anchor were now 2 bedroom condos. They would watch us with binoculars at happy hour. Florida was a short cruise in 1995.

My take on underground is that all of the good is negated by the bad if home power equipment is down there. It needs to be watched and observed. It can't be an ordeal to peak at. Same for sheds.

Hard to say. The Eagles may have stayed there and become inspired to write the song. I think some spooky stuff happened in the second half of the song.....so disavowals were made. Thinking Smoke on the Water by Deep Purple....that really happened to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4__vwHL6mAs 

It was empty when For Sale.....likely had serious problems like plumbing I would guess. Imagine telling your old buddies that you bought the Hotel California! That would sound pretty impressive.

How can something be too close to both San Diego and Cabo? That is a pretty long stretch in my book. Cabo? Used to be a cheap fishing outpost. Imagine if one had bought up plentiful acreage!

littleharbor2 · February 2018

softdown said:

littleharbor2 said:

Funny, I was referring to the Wow, cool factor. Though I am contemplating a subterranean battery vault for my batteries, in Baja.

Baja, California has intrigued me for well over a decade now. Appears to be mostly desert with temperatures cooled by Pacific breezes if one is close enough to the ocean.....much like San Diego and L.A.

How is the soil? Sandy? Limestone? Rocky? Hard to dig? Easy to dig? Stable? Unstable?

We're on the Sea of Cortez (east) side. There are no cooling Pacific breezes and for the 3 months of summer it can stay over 100 degrees with 90's at night. I shut down the main system and let a couple flat mounted panels and a small charge controller maintain the battery bank.
Virtually everywhere in our neck of the woods is sand so concrete would have to support the wind blown desert sand. Yes there are termites down there.

littleharbor2 · February 2018

softdown said:

Dave Angelini said:

I don't think it was. When I was there in Todos Santos they played up the Eagles but it was there before them. The beaches are perfect though even if it is a bit close to San Diego south or Cabo San Lucas. You can miss that easily.

How can something be too close to both San Diego and Cabo? That is a pretty long stretch in my book. Cabo? Used to be a cheap fishing outpost. Imagine if one had bought up plentiful acreage!

I believe Dave is referring to Cabo as San Diego South. That would be a compliment in my eyes. Went there (Cabo) once, no desire to ever return. Cabo is NOT Baja as far as I'm concerned.

softdown · February 2018

littleharbor2 said:

softdown said:

littleharbor2 said:

Funny, I was referring to the Wow, cool factor. Though I am contemplating a subterranean battery vault for my batteries, in Baja.

Baja, California has intrigued me for well over a decade now. Appears to be mostly desert with temperatures cooled by Pacific breezes if one is close enough to the ocean.....much like San Diego and L.A.

How is the soil? Sandy? Limestone? Rocky? Hard to dig? Easy to dig? Stable? Unstable?

We're on the Sea of Cortez (east) side. There are no cooling Pacific breezes and for the 3 months of summer it can stay over 100 degrees with 90's at night. I shut down the main system and let a couple flat mounted panels and a small charge controller maintain the battery bank.
Virtually everywhere in our neck of the woods is sand so concrete would have to support the wind blown desert sand. Yes there are termites down there.

Termites and sand make for trickier underground shelters. I have about 40 3/4" thick sheets of cement board...very heavy. Was going to floor my garage with them. Could be handy in termite country.

Sea of Cortez? Jacques Cousteau called it the "worlds aquarium." - pretty neat. Yet it doesn't seem to be known for scuba diving. More for fishing I think?

I would think that indigenous citizens would be quite dominant in the Baja? So.....maybe 90% dark skinned? Gads...it is getting scary to try to describe people.

littleharbor2 · February 2018

Very few indigenous people left. The Spanish missionaries saw to that with their ill conceived plan to convert these people to Christianity. By the 1800's most of them had died off from European diseases. There are Mestizo (inbred with Spanish) people from the mainland and lots of gringos.
Cabo Pulmo has the only true coral reef in Baja and I would imagine divers gravitate to the area. Haven't been there, personally.

softdown · February 2018

littleharbor2 said:

Very few indigenous people left. The Spanish missionaries saw to that with their ill conceived plan to convert these people to Christianity. By the 1800's most of them had died off from European diseases. There are Mestizo (inbred with Spanish) people from the mainland and lots of gringos.
Cabo Pulmo has the only true coral reef in Baja and I would imagine divers gravitate to the area. Haven't been there, personally.

"Lots of gringos" Haha, love it when people speak forthrightly. Yes.....makes sense that lots of gringos would take advantage of much, much cheaper living than the California coast tends to offer.

So....you are not a gringo then?

littleharbor2 · February 2018

Yo soy Gringo, si.
There are lots of retired gringos. Kinda like leisure world, south of the border, The vast majority, off gridders though, in our area.

softdown · February 2018

littleharbor2 said:

Yo soy Gringo, si.
There are lots of retired gringos. Kinda like leisure world, south of the border, The vast majority, off gridders though, in our area.

How is the costs of land if one is OK with being pretty remote? I have three somewhat "extreme" 4WDs..........35", 37", and 38" tires. Jeep, buggy, and truck with 488.

I had an ideal remote location here. Then Colorado made marijuana legal and we got all these potheads that wanted to grow pot on cheap land. Vandalism and theft quickly became problems. The county had to come down on people living in their vans or campers and growing pot. Guy across the street surrounded his camper with hay bales and old rubber tires. Looks absolutely hideous. Yet he somehow has money to toss steaks to my dogs before entering my property when I am gone. So my dogs run over to his place. Then his wolf dog and pit bull come charging out. Interesting times....sorry for the rant.

I am for legal plants but have a pretty low opinion of potheads in general.

Dave Angelini · February 2018

The diving is awesome in the Sea. You just have to get out to the islands where there is deep water. We called it photo opportunities
(the catching of Lobster) the shellfish, and all the other great eating fish that you dive for. There are huge schools of hammerhead that you can scuba with. After a year we just ended up free diving as it was too much work gearing up. Whales, Orcas, and the sea birds!

The down side of diving there is the winter north winds can blow for weeks. The summers as little harbor said are hot and the islands are better but open to a chubasco or hurricanes. The water visibility can be 20 feet or so and nothing like the caribbean but then it is not fished out, yet I hope!

Most of the gringos are in enclaves with local hired help/ grocery/hardware living nearby. Drive down! Loretto, Conception bay, Mulege on the inside. The coastal whale town of Magdalena bay are all very attractive.

You can be remote but then you can't leave the place and that is the attraction of Baja. You want a domicile that you can afford to walk away from, I would say. Things can change very quickly down there and yet never change much at all.

littleharbor2 · February 2018

softdown said:

littleharbor2 said:

Yo soy Gringo, si.
There are lots of retired gringos. Kinda like leisure world, south of the border, The vast majority, off gridders though, in our area.

How is the costs of land if one is OK with being pretty remote? I have three somewhat "extreme" 4WDs..........35", 37", and 38" tires. Jeep, buggy, and truck with 488.

Gringos (non citizens) cant outright own land in Mexico within 50 miles of the coast. Pretty much excludes all of Baja. I would think the Cartels have most of the desirable land on the mainland. People have formed corporations or have their land in bank trusts called Fideicomiso's. The common set up in our area is, the Campo owners own the Campo and lease the land which the lessee builds their, whatever. There's anywhere from shacks to all levels of trailers to some very beautiful homes built on these lots. When sold to another private party, the camp owners usually get 10% of the selling price. It isn't ideal but it seems to work. Seeing how much people put into these homes tells me how stable it is in this area. My place is 50 years old and I'm only the 3rd owner.

softdown · February 2018

littleharbor2 said:

softdown said:

littleharbor2 said:

Yo soy Gringo, si.
There are lots of retired gringos. Kinda like leisure world, south of the border, The vast majority, off gridders though, in our area.

How is the costs of land if one is OK with being pretty remote? I have three somewhat "extreme" 4WDs..........35", 37", and 38" tires. Jeep, buggy, and truck with 488.

Gringos (non citizens) cant outright own land in Mexico within 50 miles of the coast. Pretty much excludes all of Baja. I would think the Cartels have most of the desirable land on the mainland. People have formed corporations or have their land in bank trusts called Fideicomiso's. The common set up in our area is, the Campo owners own the Campo and lease the land which the lessee builds their, whatever. There's anywhere from shacks to all levels of trailers to some very beautiful homes built on these lots. When sold to another private party, the camp owners usually get 10% of the selling price. It isn't ideal but it seems to work. Seeing how much people put into these homes tells me how stable it is in this area. My place is 50 years old and I'm only the 3rd owner.

Hmmmm.....that is less than ideal for the prepper. Seems like a nice enough camper might be a good way to do. So you decide to move and take your camper? What happens then?

Some wealthy libertarians need to buy a huge tract of land.......maybe Cuba? Good place to experiment with a minimalist government. I am a libertarian but recognize that we probably do need some degree of law enforcement.

Cuba? Socialist government that citizens risk their lives to get away from. Young geniuses here are predominantly...........socialist. Oh well. We never seem to learn.

Our culture has been very active in scaring the public about Mexico. Outside of a couple border towns, I think Mexico is generally pretty safe. I've had several remarkable experiences with Mexicans.

The cartels though? I think of drug runners like Pablo Escobar.

BB. · February 2018

Technically, Pablo Escobar was Colombian--Don't want to "paint" him with Mexico. (Columbia is supposed to have a pretty nice running country these days after the civil and drug wars have ended).

-Bill

softdown · February 2018

BB. said:

Technically, Pablo Escobar was Colombian--Don't want to "paint" him with Mexico. (Columbia is supposed to have a pretty nice running country these days after the civil and drug wars have ended).

-Bill

Yes.....and he was pretty unique. Responsible for an est. 80% of the cocaine imported in the USA. Close to the wealthiest man who ever lived. Perhaps he was since stock value has limitations. i.e. - If Amazon's Bezos decided to sell his $100 billion dollars worth of stock, it would lost a lot of value before he had a good start.

But Mexican cartels are pretty famous in their own right. I hate *drugs*, I have seen what they can do to talented people. I need to be away from cartel sourced power and influence.

* Not including things like wine, beer, kratom.

littleharbor2 · February 2018

Not a prepper so not concerned with many of these things.
Yes the USA has got many Americans afraid to go to Mexico. Personally I feel safer down there than I do when I leave Catalina Island and travel to Long Beach weekly for my Business. Long beach is overrun with tweakers and other chemically dependent desperate people .Rural Baja, there's no comparison.

softdown · February 2018

Right now I am feeling like I must somehow own my own land. I've had a registered business since '93....there are times that helps with things. My truck is in the business name and may have helped with emissions ....not needing tests.

Thinking of the corporate angle. May not be difficult to set up some corporate umbrella with enough time.

Dave Angelini · February 2018

When we were talking littleharbor2 a few years back, I sort of pictured your place. It is pretty close to what I was thinking. Very Nice!
We got many ideas from the two year cruises we did in the Sea.
At the end we had an RV and would do both. The highlight was a Ferry ride from La Paz into Los Mochis and the train ride up to the Copper Canyon. Hope that one is on your bucket list! E ticket squared!

littleharbor2 · February 2018

Dave Angelini said:

When we were talking littleharbor2 a few years back, I sort of pictured your place. It is pretty close to what I was thinking. Very Nice!
We got many ideas from the two year cruises we did in the Sea.
At the end we had an RV and would do both. The highlight was a Ferry ride from La Paz into Los Mochis and the train ride up to the Copper Canyon. Hope that one is on your bucket list! E ticket squared!

Thanks Dave Here's a sample of the construction of the ground floor. The guy who built it was very creative. He built a pickup truck out of wood from a Volkswagen bug. He went out to the desert and rounded up volcanic rock, old Ironwood stumps and bottles. He poured a slab, then started building walls from his findings. He has textured all the grout to resemble old Ironwood, filled bottles with colored water so sunlight shines through. He took ears of corn and pushed them sideways into the wet grout , leaving a corn mold looking impression. Lots of other wacky details I don't want to bore you with.

We'll get down to southern Baja soon enough. right now I'm enjoying doing improvements to the house.

Wisdom of underground shed/shelter instead of above ground shed for the off gridder?

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