New system install OutBack GS8048 final items before startup

Alan
Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

OK, maybe the best thing is to ID what I have.

24 Kyocera 315w panels - installed, wired to -

2 MidNite 6-15 amp combiners - installed, breakers off, wired to

2 FlexMax 60 Charge controllers - installed, and wired to GSLC175-PV-120/240 Load center

GSLC175-PV-120/240 Load center attached & wired to the OutBack GS8048 Radian Series Inverter/Charger

Mate3 System display & Controller w/OutBack 4 port Hub4, installed not connected to Radian

Battery temp sensor

24 Concorde SunXtender 2V AGM sealed batteries 1215Ah wired together, not connected to load center

Generac 10KW LP powered back up generator, wired to a Square D QO panel w/ breaker & wired to load center, 12-2 home run from gen to Radian for aux automatic generator start & trickle charge for generator battery

Load center output wired to another QO panel main w/ breakers to house loads not yet hooked up.

Broan bath vent fan w/ 14-2 wired, not connected, to Radian aux (think I need a 12vdc to 120vac relay)

Not sure how to finalize the auto start / trickle charger from the Radian to the Generac

Not sure about the relay for the vent fan in the battery / electrical room / Faraday Cage.

Not sure about the sequence of attachments / breaker throws to hot on charge controllers to load center, battery hookup to load center (wires hooked to load center not connected to batteries, batteries connected to each other reading 51+vdc


1st install, don't want to blow it.

Could use some consultation.



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Comments

  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    You guy are great.

    First let me say I got taken off line by business for a couple of days right after my first post and I really appreciate the feedback.

    Thanks a million. 

    Not sure if I'm doing this communication right, "leave a comment" or if I should be responding somehow directly to your comments.

    All breakers are still off and the batteries are still not connected to the radian. I'm still on hold till I get some things sorted out.

    First, I think I need to get this exhaust fan hooked up for the batteries, right? Don't even want to get these batteries going until the place is vented, it's in a "closet" in my basement workshop.

    I think I need a relay to transmit 120vac to that fan when the radian calls for it. Is that right?

    Any suggestions on that relay? Also I'm not real clear how to hook that up. It's 2 wire from the radian at 12vdc to the relay.

    I'm understanding the Mate3 program will hit it when the batteries start charging and shut it off when they stop?

    Another matter, before I go further, is I need to know how to hook up the 10kw gererac to the other aux in the radian for the auto start when the panels aren't doing the job. That's not clear to me yet.

    I also understand the generac eats batteries without the trickle charge connected and that can come from the radian, but I not clear on how to wire that.

    I have a bunch of other questions before I go forward and look forward to answering the questions you left.

    Let me know if you got this. I'll keep an eye on this forum moving forward

    I can also be reached at sdi_va@msn.com. I didn't know if I was going to get an email response or what.

    Thanks again!





  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    Thanks for the welcome Rick.

    I saw that commissioning procedure found in the Radian operator's manual. I'm definitely going to read it and read it again before I do anything more. The Mate3 manual too. 

    You mentioned "Looks like your system could produce over 150 amps, Flexmax 80s might be a better choice.

    That was another question I had, what is the load center ac output? I have the output wires 6awg copper to a 200amp main breaker QO panel but someone said it might only be 50amp output.

    Also, Arizona W/S put together the material list that included Flexmax 60s, I'm pretty sure.

  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    ZoneBlue,

    I appreciate your comments too.

    I have done the visual and voltage check at the combiners.

    Panels were reading +/- 86vdc per pair, moderate light (4pm winter) if I remember right.

    2 panels per 15amp breaker. 6 breakers per combiner. 12 panels per combiner. 24 panels.

    2 combiners to 2 Flexmax 60's

    Not sure about a polarity check. Better look into that.

  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    BB,

    Thanks.

    "What is the Vmp of your panels?"

    I don't know. How do I tell?

    Did I answer that with the post above?

    Sorry, I'm just learning this stuff.

    I've been a Class A Licensed Builder for over 30 years and know a good bit about electricity. I even have a Low volt license, sound, security, commercial phone systems, computer networking, cctv, but this is a whole new world to me.

  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    Vic,

    Thanks.

    I went back to confirm the Flexmax's are 60's. Not sure why AW&S would undersize them, if they did.

    I wouldn't have a clue what's normal, I'm in uncharted water here. Totally uncharted to me.

    Regarding the batteries. I wired the two cables to the load center, wired the batteries together, but did not connect the batteries to the load center yet.

    Thought it would be safer to make that connection out in the open rather than in that crowded box. They are just sitting unconnected on top of the battery they will be connected to. Not touching any metal.

    When I do connect them, be assured all breakers will be off.

    Red or black first? or does it matter.

  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    At this time I'm still hunting some info on that fan relay hookup and the generator hookup.

    I would think someone has a system installed indoors and is using an exhaust fan hooked to a radian w/ a relay.

    Anybody out there? I also noted the Flexmax also has a automatic generator start hook up capability and aux connections.

    On the generac, I have a 100'+ home run w/ 2 - 1.0 aluminum lines to a 100 amp panel w/ a 50amp breaker out to the load center. The wire is oversized because I had a spool w/ some left over from another use and also in case I want to up size the generator later.

    There is also a 12-2 home run, as advised by NAWS, for the automatic generator start.

    I need to sort out how that 12-2 w/ ground is to be hooked up to the load center aux for trickle charge and auto start.

    The generac is a 2 wire start. The manual is mainly geared to a utility grid connect w/ a transfer switch to start the gen AGS when it senses no power. It doesn't discuss my application at all.

    It does note that "The terminals are clearly marked N1 and N2 for utility sensing; 23 and 194 for the transfer relay control; and T1 and 0 for battery charge."

    The radian notes "The relay aux terminals can be wired in place of the generator's start switch as shown below."

    It show 2 wires hooked to the relay aux figure 21 pg. 31 of the radian installation manual.

    That leaves me 1 wire short, 12-2 w/ ground of hooking up the generator. I can get another run out there but I'm not clear how/where to hook up what.

    I'm thinking the N1 and N2 for utility sensing are the hookup to the radian in figure 21 but I'm still not clear on the T1 and 0 for the battery charge.


  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    Vic,

    The setup is in Virginia. It gets as hot as you want it to be and as cold as you want it to be here.

    My intent was to take as much of my home off grid as I can and leave the rest on grid. Kind of a mini split system.

    I have two 5 ton heat pumps pulling 60amps each. One furnace has an 18kw electric backup, sucking 100amps, the other is LP backup 105kbtu hooked to a 1000gal underground tank. There are also 4 wood burning fireplaces in the main house.

    I built it. Did every trade myself. I've hands on built and renovated many homes myself over the years, all trades. 

    I also placed some window a/c units in the living room, kitchen and master bedroom and another bedroom.

    That's just 1 building, there are 4 on site. One is a two story 3 bay garage w/ apartment over, that's my office. I run a business out of there. I have an office down town but I never go there, my wife does frequently.

    I obviously can't hook up heat pumps and the electric backup furnace, they will have to stay on grid. The system may eventually be grid connect but presently I'm not inclined to do that now for reasons.

    My electric bill will drop considerably I hope. If the grid goes down, I can get by with this system, fridge & freezers on, gas stove, fireplaces and the lp back up furnace (it only runs the squirrel cage in lp mode) we can get by in the cold.

    Room a/c units would likely operate staggered as we move from one area to another in the summer.


  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    Softdown,

    In that there is a God in Heaven and that He is in control, and I am His, I fear nothing.

    That said, I expect it all, as it is written. And when my time comes, I'm gone. I'm ok with that.

    But, if I have to hang out here, I'd like a freezer with some steaks in it, lights are good too.

    I live in front of 3 mile wide water with deer and all manner of other critters running around. Plenty to eat and drink.

    I like to shoot & fish too.

    Now, as an expert, can you tell me how to hook up my generac to my load center?

    I really would appreciate it, before N. Korea nukes us.

    My hope is I can get it to come on when the snow is on my roof and the panels aren't producing and charge those batteries.

    I would also like to know if I can get that damn fan to come on when the batteries start charging and turn off when their not.

    And honestly, thanks for tuning in. I do hope to hear again from you. Grin!



  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭

    Softdown,

    Thanks, if the game lasts a year or two in a SHTF scenario, that means I will too.

    I might even last longer if I can keep the freezer running and full!

  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    Quite. Shoulda said "trying to max out oppurtunity loads, or are grid tied". But for off grid it will be fine as is.
    Vic said:
    zoneblue said:
    Actually, im happy with the pair of fm60s. 24*315W*0.77/48V = 121 amps. The only reason to upgrade would be if youre trying to max out oppurtunity loads.


    Well,  personally,  would not like to run CCs that flat out for hour after hour ...

    This is probably a Grid Interactive system.

    AND,  if it is Grid-connected,  it will probably need to be Inspected ...

    So,  then,  probably,  the NEC Maximum Isc rating of the PVs will apply ...  in which case,  FM-80 might have been a bit better ....

    BUT,  just my opinion.  Vic



    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2016 #26
    I must be missing something huge about grid tie. I still don't see the need for a separate charge controller on a grid tie. Thought charge controllers were for battery maintenance.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Alan
    Alan Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Presently, it's not grid tied but it may be at some point.
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭

    Hi Alan,


    Thanks for the info on your location,   and the use/goal for your system.


    Still,  I would certainly not use two FM60s in a system of this size.   Not needing to sell almost every Coulomb to the Grid does reduce the average loads on the CCs,  but  simply recharging batteries can often mean some hours spent in Bulk.

    IMO,  the FM-80 would be a good choice  ...   But that's just me.

    There might still be a question about Inspection  --  some jurisdictions care about the specs on the DC side of a system,  but,  since it will not be Grid Interactive,  as I read it this might not apply.


    FWIW,  Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    I must be missing something huge about grid tie. I still don't see the need for a separate charge controller on a grid tie. Thought charge controllers were for battery maintenance.


    Regarding Grid-Connected or Grid Interactive systems,   and the selection of CCs;

    The previous mention was NOT that there somehow needed to be a "separate" CC for a Grid connected system,  BUT,  that the NEC Isc total for each of the FM-60s was being exceeded by six,  or so percent.   And that this might well FAIL Inspection of a GT system.   ADDING an additional CC,  thus reducing the size of the PV array served by each of three FM-60 CC.  This would allow compliance with the NEC Isc Limit of 48 A Max per CC. This was also based on the assumption that the FM-60s had been installed,  and would likely not be returnable for credit for FM-80 (with their higher output current rating,  and higher NEC Isc rating).

    When Grid Interactive systems  Sell to the grid,  the CCs are heavily utilized,  over many hours per day in sunny weather.  If the CC is (essentially) even a bit overloaded,  this can take its toll on longevity,  and can also mean some reduction in the power output of the system  --  Clipping.

    This situation is less prominent on systems that are not connected to the Grid,  IMO.


    And so on,  Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah soft, the radian is a hybrid inverter with capable sell to grid modes. Hybrid inverters can sync to external ac sources, and can be used for grid tie with backup type scenerios, hybid inverters can often also be used to gen support.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    Don't want to mislead newcomers about the need for generator power. I live in an alpine desert. That is why the generator is rarely needed. A lot of people engage in very extensive generator usage during the winter months.


    softdown said:
    I'd like to help but my electrical knowledge is minimal compared to many of the pros here.

    I just fire up the generator when the battery voltage drops too low.  Fortunately that happens less than once/month.

    I bought a fine Magnum Energy ME-AGS-S Auto Gen Start Stand-Alone from AW&S a couple of years ago. Did not possess the knowledge to hook it up. It remains in the box and untouched. I would sell it for 40% off from the current new price from AW&S....our host. It does include all of the original paperwork of course. Magnum Energy is a highly regarded company in solar circles.

    As for abundant game in a SHTF scenario....the game would be gone in a year or two. Part of me finds a SHTF scenario fascinating. Part of me thinks that dealing with it would be most unpleasant. Part of me looks upon it as an extended camping trip sans government oversight.

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries