New system install OutBack GS8048 final items before startup

Alan

OK, maybe the best thing is to ID what I have.

24 Kyocera 315w panels - installed, wired to -

2 MidNite 6-15 amp combiners - installed, breakers off, wired to

2 FlexMax 60 Charge controllers - installed, and wired to GSLC175-PV-120/240 Load center

GSLC175-PV-120/240 Load center attached & wired to the OutBack GS8048 Radian Series Inverter/Charger

Mate3 System display & Controller w/OutBack 4 port Hub4, installed not connected to Radian

Battery temp sensor

24 Concorde SunXtender 2V AGM sealed batteries 1215Ah wired together, not connected to load center

Generac 10KW LP powered back up generator, wired to a Square D QO panel w/ breaker & wired to load center, 12-2 home run from gen to Radian for aux automatic generator start & trickle charge for generator battery

Load center output wired to another QO panel main w/ breakers to house loads not yet hooked up.

Broan bath vent fan w/ 14-2 wired, not connected, to Radian aux (think I need a 12vdc to 120vac relay)

Not sure how to finalize the auto start / trickle charger from the Radian to the Generac

Not sure about the relay for the vent fan in the battery / electrical room / Faraday Cage.

Not sure about the sequence of attachments / breaker throws to hot on charge controllers to load center, battery hookup to load center (wires hooked to load center not connected to batteries, batteries connected to each other reading 51+vdc

1st install, don't want to blow it.

Could use some consultation.

Raj174

Welcome Alan,
     Follow the commissioning procedure found in the Radian operator's manual. It is best to follow that procedure to the letter. It takes you step by step, what to turn on , what to check and when.
It would be a good idea to read all of your manuals one or more times before you work on the equipment if you haven't, to be familiar with what they cover. Then, when you do anything, make connections, adjust settings, troubleshoot problems or basically anything, find it in the manual and get informed before you begin. This can save time, headache and money. Looks like your system could produce over 150 amps, Flexmax 80s might be a better choice.
Rick

zoneblue

How i did mine was in stages, start with the PV and CC.

- visual inspection of combiner and disconnect.
- polarity and voltage check each PV string.
- polarity and voltage check array voltage at disco.
- test for short circuits across the battery bus.
- test for battery polarity at disco.
- test continity of all chasis to ground bus
- power up the charge controllers one by one, do any required programming, and confirm working out of box.
- bring in the PV, and ditto.

After the bank is charging, you can move on to the AC side.

If you prepared for some vigorous feedback you might consider posting some photos. Nothing like a 2nd opinion. And youll get it...

BB.

And just one quick question about your solar panel wring... What is the Vmp of your panels? And how many panels do you have in series? Looking for Vmp-array and Voc-array vs your MPPT charge controller needs.

Have you ever been off grid/managed a large AGM/Sealed battery bank before? AGMs are very nice batteries, but you need to keep a close eye on them to make sure that you do not accidentally "murder them" with over/under charging/deficient charging/etc.

-Bill

Vic

In addition to the above good points,

Before connecting either cable from battery to the Radian DC box (the one with the DC Main inverter breaker),  carefully disconnect one of the battery-to-battery interconnecting cables.   This will allow connecting the cables from the battery to the main breaker,  and the battery DC -- buss without the risk of an incident.  With the main DC breaker/s OFF,  reconnect the previously disconnected battery interconnect cable,  being very careful (as you have already been when connecting all of the batteries together.

And  when dealing with the FM Charge Controllers (CCs),  always switch the Battery breaker ON,  first,  then the PV input breaker,  and  do the reverse when powering down the CCs  --  PV in OFF first,  then battery breaker OFF.

Agree,  was surprised to see FM-60s as the CCs,  not FM-80s.

And,  YES   READ  read,  and read all of the Manuals for the system.

Good Luck,  and have fun with commissioning the new system.    Vic

Alan

You guy are great.

First let me say I got taken off line by business for a couple of days right after my first post and I really appreciate the feedback.

Thanks a million. 

Not sure if I'm doing this communication right, "leave a comment" or if I should be responding somehow directly to your comments.

All breakers are still off and the batteries are still not connected to the radian. I'm still on hold till I get some things sorted out.

First, I think I need to get this exhaust fan hooked up for the batteries, right? Don't even want to get these batteries going until the place is vented, it's in a "closet" in my basement workshop.

I think I need a relay to transmit 120vac to that fan when the radian calls for it. Is that right?

Any suggestions on that relay? Also I'm not real clear how to hook that up. It's 2 wire from the radian at 12vdc to the relay.

I'm understanding the Mate3 program will hit it when the batteries start charging and shut it off when they stop?

Another matter, before I go further, is I need to know how to hook up the 10kw gererac to the other aux in the radian for the auto start when the panels aren't doing the job. That's not clear to me yet.

I also understand the generac eats batteries without the trickle charge connected and that can come from the radian, but I not clear on how to wire that.

I have a bunch of other questions before I go forward and look forward to answering the questions you left.

Let me know if you got this. I'll keep an eye on this forum moving forward

I can also be reached at sdi_va@msn.com. I didn't know if I was going to get an email response or what.

Thanks again!

Alan

Thanks for the welcome Rick.

I saw that commissioning procedure found in the Radian operator's manual. I'm definitely going to read it and read it again before I do anything more. The Mate3 manual too. 

You mentioned "Looks like your system could produce over 150 amps, Flexmax 80s might be a better choice.

That was another question I had, what is the load center ac output? I have the output wires 6awg copper to a 200amp main breaker QO panel but someone said it might only be 50amp output.

Also, Arizona W/S put together the material list that included Flexmax 60s, I'm pretty sure.

Alan

ZoneBlue,

I appreciate your comments too.

I have done the visual and voltage check at the combiners.

Panels were reading +/- 86vdc per pair, moderate light (4pm winter) if I remember right.

2 panels per 15amp breaker. 6 breakers per combiner. 12 panels per combiner. 24 panels.

2 combiners to 2 Flexmax 60's

Not sure about a polarity check. Better look into that.

Alan

BB,

Thanks.

"What is the Vmp of your panels?"

I don't know. How do I tell?

Did I answer that with the post above?

Sorry, I'm just learning this stuff.

I've been a Class A Licensed Builder for over 30 years and know a good bit about electricity. I even have a Low volt license, sound, security, commercial phone systems, computer networking, cctv, but this is a whole new world to me.

Alan

Vic,

Thanks.

I went back to confirm the Flexmax's are 60's. Not sure why AW&S would undersize them, if they did.

I wouldn't have a clue what's normal, I'm in uncharted water here. Totally uncharted to me.

Regarding the batteries. I wired the two cables to the load center, wired the batteries together, but did not connect the batteries to the load center yet.

Thought it would be safer to make that connection out in the open rather than in that crowded box. They are just sitting unconnected on top of the battery they will be connected to. Not touching any metal.

When I do connect them, be assured all breakers will be off.

Red or black first? or does it matter.

Raj174

Alan, 
    The Radian installation manual answers pretty much all the questions you have asked here concerning the fan relay, the generator wiring. The quick start guide has a complete wiring diagram that shows you how everything is connected. The main power panel will need a 50 amp 240V AC breaker (#6 wire is ok) that feeds the power to the L1- L2 - N and Ground buss bars in the GSLC . The AC feed to your sub panel should also be a 50 amp 240 volt breaker. The Radian has a quick start guide, an install manual and an operators manual. And as you know the Mate3 manual and also the Flexmax manual. As Vic said, read, read, read. 
    The PV array will output about 150 amps under the best conditions. Cold, clear, sunny day close to noon. Probably 90+% of the time it will be closer to 120 amps when the panels are hot and less efficient. Of course the Flexmax 60s will only charge at a max of 120 amps together. So they should do the job but the 80s would probably be better.

Vic

Hi Alan,

I do not want to second-guess Wind-Sun,  but FM-60s do seem on the light side of things.  Seems to me that they will tend to be run at their maximum possibly for extended time periods.   Some of this depends upon your location,  and the temperatures that that site encounters,  and so on.

One other thing,  is the "12-2" cable run from the genset  --  wonder if that is a bit small,  depends upon the breaker sizing in the genset,  and perhaps for any Invertr Bypass breaker sizing.

This appears to be a very capable system.   Have Fun,   Vic

softdown

Got my 48 volt system operational less than a year ago. Running a little 12 volt system hardly prepared me for the brave, new world I was entering.

It was intimidating in spite of reading four books and hanging out here. Nevertheless, I got everything 99% ready but didn't want to murder my system due to a small error.

Via referral, I found a local pro who finalized the connections. It took him one or two hours. It was a huge relief to know that everything was very fine and that I didn't blow anything up due to beginners mistake. He also lent some good pointers...and explained the FM80 about three times too fast.

Just something to consider.

The solar world is quite challenging as you have figured out. Without this board, my experience would have been far less positive.

You can set your charge controllers maximum charge rate. Thinking that delivering 110-115 amps of charging power might be more than I would do.

I still need to screw up significant courage to change the settings on my FM80. Seems it is always delivering about 40-41 amps in good conditions. I don't know if that was my setting or not. It is working fine for me. Still feel like I just gave birth last spring.

Consider that, I believe, 100 amps of charging at 48 volts should be the equivalent of 400 amps of charging at 12 volts. Perhaps that is what AW&S, a fine company, was thinking.

Vic

Hi Alan,

I wonder if you could consider adding a third  FM  Charge Controller?

This spoils your symmetry,  but a third CC  would do an even better job or handling the total Isc of the PVs,  in the proposed strings of  two PVs in series per string,    for six strings total on each FM-60,  IMO.

As I read the spec on the Kyo 315s,  the Isc is 8.50 Amps ...

Am trying to be a bit circumspect on this,   FWIW,   Vic

zoneblue

Actually, im happy with the pair of fm60s. 24*315W*0.77/48V = 121 amps. The only reason to upgrade would be if youre trying to max out oppurtunity loads.

Vic

zoneblue said:

Actually, im happy with the pair of fm60s. 24*315W*0.77/48V = 121 amps. The only reason to upgrade would be if youre trying to max out oppurtunity loads.

Well,  personally,  would not like to run CCs that flat out for hour after hour ...

This is probably a Grid Interactive system.

AND,  if it is Grid-connected,  it will probably need to be Inspected ...

So,  then,  probably,  the NEC Maximum Isc rating of the PVs will apply ...  in which case,  FM-80 might have been a bit better ....

BUT,  just my opinion.  Vic

zoneblue

Alan, the thing about the dc disco, is just being really careful in there at all times. Parts of the contents are by definition unfused. I find that the battery negative (at the battery) is the thing to connect last. Theres more room there, and with the neg it dosent matter if the spanner hits any grounds. Then later, if you have to do any (untrival) work on the disco, always unbolt that bat neg before hand.

Alan

At this time I'm still hunting some info on that fan relay hookup and the generator hookup.

I would think someone has a system installed indoors and is using an exhaust fan hooked to a radian w/ a relay.

Anybody out there? I also noted the Flexmax also has a automatic generator start hook up capability and aux connections.

On the generac, I have a 100'+ home run w/ 2 - 1.0 aluminum lines to a 100 amp panel w/ a 50amp breaker out to the load center. The wire is oversized because I had a spool w/ some left over from another use and also in case I want to up size the generator later.

There is also a 12-2 home run, as advised by NAWS, for the automatic generator start.

I need to sort out how that 12-2 w/ ground is to be hooked up to the load center aux for trickle charge and auto start.

The generac is a 2 wire start. The manual is mainly geared to a utility grid connect w/ a transfer switch to start the gen AGS when it senses no power. It doesn't discuss my application at all.

It does note that "The terminals are clearly marked N1 and N2 for utility sensing; 23 and 194 for the transfer relay control; and T1 and 0 for battery charge."

The radian notes "The relay aux terminals can be wired in place of the generator's start switch as shown below."

It show 2 wires hooked to the relay aux figure 21 pg. 31 of the radian installation manual.

That leaves me 1 wire short, 12-2 w/ ground of hooking up the generator. I can get another run out there but I'm not clear how/where to hook up what.

I'm thinking the N1 and N2 for utility sensing are the hookup to the radian in figure 21 but I'm still not clear on the T1 and 0 for the battery charge.

Vic

Quickly,  Alan,

The Vmp of your PVs is 39.8 V  --  this is good,  as it is high enough for the CCs to have enough voltage to find a good MPP operating point,  and with strings of two PVs,  the operating voltage  is low enough for more efficient operation.

For anyone wondering about the NEC Max Isc,  this is 8.50 amps  which is about 6% over the NEC max with strings of two PVs with six strings per FM CC.  

Your genset power leads seem fine,  to me ...

Most Generac gesets that have a battery maintainer,  look for the AC power on that line to be interrupted,  as a genset Start command.  So,  just a relay that interrupts this AC line for the duration of the desired run time is often all that is required.

I have assumed that the FM60 CCs are already installed,  otherwise it would not be a very big deal to swap them for FM-80s which have an NEC total PV Isc of 64 Amps,  vs the FM-60's max of 48 Amps  ...    it that really matters to anyone.

Alan,  approximately where is this system located  --  what state?

I assume that this large system is Grid Interactive (Grid Tied with batteries).

Gotta run to town,  more later,  Thanks,   Vic

Alan

Vic,

The setup is in Virginia. It gets as hot as you want it to be and as cold as you want it to be here.

My intent was to take as much of my home off grid as I can and leave the rest on grid. Kind of a mini split system.

I have two 5 ton heat pumps pulling 60amps each. One furnace has an 18kw electric backup, sucking 100amps, the other is LP backup 105kbtu hooked to a 1000gal underground tank. There are also 4 wood burning fireplaces in the main house.

I built it. Did every trade myself. I've hands on built and renovated many homes myself over the years, all trades. 

I also placed some window a/c units in the living room, kitchen and master bedroom and another bedroom.

That's just 1 building, there are 4 on site. One is a two story 3 bay garage w/ apartment over, that's my office. I run a business out of there. I have an office down town but I never go there, my wife does frequently.

I obviously can't hook up heat pumps and the electric backup furnace, they will have to stay on grid. The system may eventually be grid connect but presently I'm not inclined to do that now for reasons.

My electric bill will drop considerably I hope. If the grid goes down, I can get by with this system, fridge & freezers on, gas stove, fireplaces and the lp back up furnace (it only runs the squirrel cage in lp mode) we can get by in the cold.

Room a/c units would likely operate staggered as we move from one area to another in the summer.

softdown

Sounds like you think the grid might go down?  Some days I am more optimistic than others.

 You fear a solar flare or an EMP more?

Alan

Softdown,

In that there is a God in Heaven and that He is in control, and I am His, I fear nothing.

That said, I expect it all, as it is written. And when my time comes, I'm gone. I'm ok with that.

But, if I have to hang out here, I'd like a freezer with some steaks in it, lights are good too.

I live in front of 3 mile wide water with deer and all manner of other critters running around. Plenty to eat and drink.

I like to shoot & fish too.

Now, as an expert, can you tell me how to hook up my generac to my load center?

I really would appreciate it, before N. Korea nukes us.

My hope is I can get it to come on when the snow is on my roof and the panels aren't producing and charge those batteries.

I would also like to know if I can get that damn fan to come on when the batteries start charging and turn off when their not.

And honestly, thanks for tuning in. I do hope to hear again from you. Grin!

softdown

I'd like to help but my electrical knowledge is minimal compared to many of the pros here.

I just fire up the generator when the battery voltage drops too low.  Fortunately that happens less than once/month.

I bought a fine Magnum Energy ME-AGS-S Auto Gen Start Stand-Alone from AW&S a couple of years ago. Did not possess the knowledge to hook it up. It remains in the box and untouched. I would sell it for 40% off from the current new price from AW&S....our host. It does include all of the original paperwork of course. Magnum Energy is a highly regarded company in solar circles.

As for abundant game in a SHTF scenario....the game would be gone in a year or two. Part of me finds a SHTF scenario fascinating. Part of me thinks that dealing with it would be most unpleasant. Part of me looks upon it as an extended camping trip sans government oversight.

Alan

Softdown,

Thanks, if the game lasts a year or two in a SHTF scenario, that means I will too.

I might even last longer if I can keep the freezer running and full!

zoneblue

Quite. Shoulda said "trying to max out oppurtunity loads, or are grid tied". But for off grid it will be fine as is.

Vic said:

zoneblue said:

Actually, im happy with the pair of fm60s. 24*315W*0.77/48V = 121 amps. The only reason to upgrade would be if youre trying to max out oppurtunity loads.

Well,  personally,  would not like to run CCs that flat out for hour after hour ...

This is probably a Grid Interactive system.

AND,  if it is Grid-connected,  it will probably need to be Inspected ...

So,  then,  probably,  the NEC Maximum Isc rating of the PVs will apply ...  in which case,  FM-80 might have been a bit better ....

BUT,  just my opinion.  Vic

softdown

I must be missing something huge about grid tie. I still don't see the need for a separate charge controller on a grid tie. Thought charge controllers were for battery maintenance.

Alan

Presently, it's not grid tied but it may be at some point.

Vic

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the info on your location,   and the use/goal for your system.

Still,  I would certainly not use two FM60s in a system of this size.   Not needing to sell almost every Coulomb to the Grid does reduce the average loads on the CCs,  but  simply recharging batteries can often mean some hours spent in Bulk.

IMO,  the FM-80 would be a good choice  ...   But that's just me.

There might still be a question about Inspection  --  some jurisdictions care about the specs on the DC side of a system,  but,  since it will not be Grid Interactive,  as I read it this might not apply.

FWIW,  Vic

Vic

softdown said:

I must be missing something huge about grid tie. I still don't see the need for a separate charge controller on a grid tie. Thought charge controllers were for battery maintenance.

Regarding Grid-Connected or Grid Interactive systems,   and the selection of CCs;

The previous mention was NOT that there somehow needed to be a "separate" CC for a Grid connected system,  BUT,  that the NEC Isc total for each of the FM-60s was being exceeded by six,  or so percent.   And that this might well FAIL Inspection of a GT system.   ADDING an additional CC,  thus reducing the size of the PV array served by each of three FM-60 CC.  This would allow compliance with the NEC Isc Limit of 48 A Max per CC. This was also based on the assumption that the FM-60s had been installed,  and would likely not be returnable for credit for FM-80 (with their higher output current rating,  and higher NEC Isc rating).

When Grid Interactive systems  Sell to the grid,  the CCs are heavily utilized,  over many hours per day in sunny weather.  If the CC is (essentially) even a bit overloaded,  this can take its toll on longevity,  and can also mean some reduction in the power output of the system  --  Clipping.

This situation is less prominent on systems that are not connected to the Grid,  IMO.

And so on,  Vic

zoneblue

Yeah soft, the radian is a hybrid inverter with capable sell to grid modes. Hybrid inverters can sync to external ac sources, and can be used for grid tie with backup type scenerios, hybid inverters can often also be used to gen support.

softdown

Don't want to mislead newcomers about the need for generator power. I live in an alpine desert. That is why the generator is rarely needed. A lot of people engage in very extensive generator usage during the winter months.


softdown said:

I'd like to help but my electrical knowledge is minimal compared to many of the pros here.

I just fire up the generator when the battery voltage drops too low.  Fortunately that happens less than once/month.

I bought a fine Magnum Energy ME-AGS-S Auto Gen Start Stand-Alone from AW&S a couple of years ago. Did not possess the knowledge to hook it up. It remains in the box and untouched. I would sell it for 40% off from the current new price from AW&S....our host. It does include all of the original paperwork of course. Magnum Energy is a highly regarded company in solar circles.

As for abundant game in a SHTF scenario....the game would be gone in a year or two. Part of me finds a SHTF scenario fascinating. Part of me thinks that dealing with it would be most unpleasant. Part of me looks upon it as an extended camping trip sans government oversight.