MPPT 80 600 CC down

Masterjoe · September 2015

Had a thunderstorm today with a lot of cloud to ground lightning. I was not home at the time but my son said there was a few strikes close by. When i came home the inverter is in absorption mode and reading battery voltage at 28.6 v. System status is reading 9.9v and DC out on CC is 9.9v( I should note the battery voltage when we left today was 25.6v). The battery indicator meter is empty yet all 5 led lights are lit. I measured the voltage from the terminals coming off the 12 batteries and got 62.7 volts. Battery temp was 82 degrees, yet it sounded as if the batteries were boiling. Is that what it sounds like when they are in absorption mode stirring up the electrolyte? Anyway got an F11, F54, F56 and W12. F11, F54 and W12 just indicate that battery voltage has dropped below 20v and the below 18v. The F56 is the one that says PV ground fault indicated. Message clears after system power is removed, ground fault is corrected, GFP fuse is replaced and system power is restored. I have not tried clearing the faults and warnings. Should I do that first or not? What are the chances that damage has been done to the CC? The system only has 1 CC for all 18 250W panels. I left a message with the installer and am waiting for a call back. It is a nice thing to find out that the system is not warrantied against lightning lol. Just my luck.

Vic · September 2015

Hi Masterjoe,

62.7 with 82 F batteries is an EQ voltage.

Have asked you two times before ... ;

Thank you for answering the questions that were asked before ... "do you have one or two MPPT 80-600s?". So, you have ONLY ONE..

IMO, on a 24 V system you need TWO of them with your 18 ea 250 W PVs. This is 4500 W STC of PV. With normal de-rating of about 75% of STC PV output during solar peak, that is about 3375 W of output. On a 24 V system, this would yield about 140 Amps of potential output to a battery that is at 24 V. Your MPPT 80-600 will handle ONLY 80 AMps maximum. You are short one Charge Controller, and are wasting about 50% of your potential output. AND, there is some chance of damage to your single MPPT 80-600.

Cannot speak to the error codes.

MidNite Solar makes some very good Surge Protective Devices (SPDs).

Why not ask your "Installer" about the potential output from the PVs verses the capabilities of a single MPPT 80-600 ?

Good Luck, VIc

Masterjoe · September 2015

I apologize for not answering the questions. I was also thinking about the fact the system can produce 4500w of PV but Charles insists we only need one. He says 18 panels in 2 strings of 9 is 300v each separate to the charge controller that can handle a max of 600v. Well I am going to insist that I get a second CC. We have peaked out at 2404 so far and I don't see getting 3375. I am experiencing alot of days now where there is either absolutely no output from the pv, or I get a max of less than 100 watts and produce less than 1 Kwh. I will look into the surge protective devices, but it does not seem that what I experienced was a surge or that would have been a separate over voltage fault. We go from system status of 25.6 to 9.9?? Very strange.

Vic · September 2015

Hi Masterjoe,

Look, I am not an expert, at all in Grid-Interactive systems, like yours. But it seems that simple math would dictate using two CCs.

Somewhere, perhaps a bit hidden on the Schneider site, is a String Sizer for the MPPT 80--600, which should tell the story.

Earlier, some here have had some questions about the capabilities of your Installer. If my read on the system is not in error, then I, too, will have significant questions about how capable "Charles" really is ...

In the manual for the 80-600, believe that they state the MAXIMUM amount of PV power that is permitted on your CC -- there is s limitation either in Watts, or Mac current - Amp, IIRC. This limit is there, because, under certain conditions, that 80-600 might have trouble protecting itself, if there is too many PVs connected to it, and it could possibly fault, and be damaged, as I read it.

Good Luck, Vic

Just my opinions.

Vic · September 2015

Hi Masterjoe,

Looking at the MPPT 80-600 Manual, looks like the Max Isc total on the PV input to this CC is 28 Amps.

Assume that your system runs two strings of 9 PV, and that those PV modules have a Vmp of about 30 Volts, and an Isc of approximately 9.1 Amps, then your PV input will not exceed the CCs input Isc Max. At least as I read the manual.

Have not yet found the PV String Sizing Tool, yet.

FWIW, Vic

SkiDoo55 · September 2015

Vic wrote: »

Hi Masterjoe,

Looking at the MPPT 80-600 Manual, looks like the Max Isc total on the PV input to this CC is 28 Amps.

Assume that your system runs two strings of 9 PV, and that those PV modules have a Vmp of about 30 Volts, and an Isc of approximately 9.1 Amps, then your PV input will not exceed the CCs input Isc Max. At least as I read the manual.

Have not yet found the PV String Sizing Tool, yet.

FWIW, Vic

Schnieder site, Products, Conext Designer it's free.does appear to give some unusual result for the wiring calculations. Spec sheet shows 2560 w output 24 vdc and 4500 W 48 vdc. VDC input operating range 195-550 vdc. It operates very similar for array input as their grid TX inverters (Discontinued), needs to have @ 300 volt from the panels and the MPPT will track around 250-275 v.
For the panels you have as mentioned would need 2nd CC to get full potential on 24 VDC system.

Masterjoe · September 2015

As I continue to learn here I am starting to get very soured on solar. According to Schneider we need a new CC as this one was damaged in the storm. The battery bank may have been too I don't know voltage from the inverter is reading 25.7v and has been all night. So we are back to grid voltage which we have been every night since the system came online, since AC pass thru means grid voltage. Our electric bill has nearly doubled. Schneider does not cover lightning strikes and homeowners insurance will but our deductible is $1000.00. Cutting my losses and having the system removed will cost me money, and continuing to have it will cost me money. A very bad and costly mistake on my part. Since we don't have the money to replace the CC, I honestly don't know where to go from here, as I am now just constantly getting an F11 fault Outputpvvoltage. More to follow.

Vic · September 2015

Hi Masterjoe,

Sorry to hear of the lightning event. It sure can make an expensive mess of things.

Flooded batteries are very tough. It would be surprising if your batteries were damaged by any indirect lightning strikes, IMO.

Believe that you mentioned this in another Thread ... If one connects a GT system to the grid before having the correct meter configuration, your production will actually be billed as consumption, by most utility meters. But, once you get the correct metering, your production will be credited in some manner, depending on your Rate plan.

Here are some very good MidNite Surge Protection Devices (SPDs):
http://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=23&productCatName=Surge Protection Devices

More Later, Good Luck, Vic

Masterjoe · September 2015

Thanks Vic, It is just my luck. Just want to throw this out there since I just got off the phone with Schneider. George had me check the battery bank voltage. Ima write this like I am an idiot lol, there is 12 6v 390ah batteries supposed to be in 3 strings of 4 batteries. There is a positive red tape wire coming off the positive end and a wire with black tape coming off the negative end going into the house. I take the leads from the volt meter red lead to red tape wire, black lead to black tape wire. I get 55.7v, George replies so it is a 48v system. No I say it is supposed to be wired for a 24v system. So what is this voltage really? Still waiting to get a hold of my wonderful installer.

Vic · September 2015

Another place to measure the voltage is at the input to the Inverter, or at least at the Main breaker that feeds the inverter, and the main system Negative busbar, where the inverter connects.

It is very difficult to miswire three strings of 6 V batteries as 48 V. And, most of your system voltage readings seem to indicate that it IS a 24 V system.

If there are fuses or circuit breakers on each battery string, and one of those popped/tripped, and the battery string wiring was poorly done, one might be able to get 48 V into the inverter ,,, guess, perhaps.

Back to work, others here will chime in. We all wish you the best of luck!! Thanks for the update, Vic

Dave Angelini · September 2015

When in doubt read the manual.

mike95490 · September 2015

I'd say power the whole thing down for a couple minutes, and then apply battery power to the charge controllers, let them boot up, and energize the PV and see if things start charging, Then you can start up the inverter.
Sounds like the installer forgot the SPD's and you may have fried a lot of gear.

Masterjoe · September 2015

In an update to my question of what that

Masterjoe wrote: »

I get 55.7v, George replies so it is a 48v system. No I say it is supposed to be wired for a 24v system. So what is this voltage really?

For some reason in the CC fiasco the battery Ah and system voltage were changed back to default settings of 440ah batteries on a 48v system. I put it back to 390ah and 24v, but the batteries managed to get charged to 55.7v. So I imagine after we find out the condition of the CC on Monday, I will be disconnecting from the grid and drawing these batteries down to the required voltage.

softdown · September 2015

I'm thinking that having a very good solar guru stop by would be worth it. You have gone through absolute hell.

Photowhit · September 2015

I suspect, installer error, if I read correctly that you have had higher bills since the install...

Also a lack of education by the installer, unless you did not want or refused to learn (I know some people who just want solar because "it's hot" or "it's the right thing to do" but don't want to learn.)

If they lead you to believe than a grid tied system with battery back up would be saving you money, I'd call it fraud, unless you have very high electric rates. The reason for a grid tied system with battery backup is to have very reliable service.

Dave Angelini · September 2015

And I would add exercising due diligence on the part of the owner. This is not a simple grid-tie inverter with 4 wires and a ground. They have the problems with the Outback hybrid also on their forum.

Masterjoe · September 2015

Thought I would give a shout out to the very knowledgeable personnel here. Battery backup for very reliable service went out the window with a lightning strike. My installer was 95% sure if we replaced the GFP fuse the CC would be just fine. He insists he "has never replaced a CC". Well turns out he is 95% wrong "we" are replacing a CC. Schneider won't warranty an act of God which is funny considering one would think lightning would be warrantied since it is electricity. Installer says it is not his problem either. So I will be saving up $1,000 to buy me a new one. In the mean time we have 12 fine batteries sitting outside doing nothing. I gave my installer a call and asked him how long the batteries could sit idle before I can look forward to replacing them too. I said the earliest I have an idea when we could get a new CC is April. He said as long as the batteries are not being discharged they are just fine. Well me being a semi intelligent person I don't buy that load of bull. So I thought I would post it here. PS in that lightning strike we had blew 3 fuses, the 600v GFP on the CC the 1000v on the PV and one on a panel.

BB. · September 2015

April for a new controller? It is most likely that lightning would take out an AC inverter--But close behind is probably the charge controller.

I don't remember, but if these are flooded cell batteries... But flooded cell batteries need to be fully/correctly charged at least 24 hours every month. Whether you do this with an AC charger (that has a float voltage setting), or get a cheap solar charger to limp by for now--Your choice.

Nominally, a battery bank on float needs a minimum of 1% to 2% rate of charge (400 AH battery bank needs minimum of 4-8 amps). If you cycle the bank at all--You should have a 5% rate of charge minimum.

If you don't have a backup AC to DC battery charger yet--Now would be a good time to invest in one.

-Bill

Masterjoe · September 2015

So now I have Nikki from Wholesale Solar confirming we have a high voltage situation here. We have 187.5 amps going into an 80 amp CC so yes we need 2. But try getting that through my installers head. So now that I have holes in the siding in the walls of my house, how hard would it be to remove all the equipment and have everything wired back to one electrical panel? cause I know I am going to have a huge fight getting him to even come and remove the equipment. As far as I am concerned the wife and I are going to write this off as the biggest costliest mistake I have ever made in our 17 years of marriage.

Vic · September 2015

Masterjoe said:

So now I have Nikki from Wholesale Solar confirming we have a high voltage situation here. We have 187.5 amps going into an 80 amp CC so yes we need 2. But try getting that through my installers head ...

YES, we have been trying to say this in a different way;

With 4500 Watts STC of PV on a 24 V system, with normal de-rating to about 75 percent, this represents 3375-ish WATTS of INPUT to the CC. At 24 V nominal, this represents about 140 AMPS OUTPUT from the CC, which is a gross overload on it.

A second problem which was mentioned in passing, before, is that this system really begged to be 48 volts nominal, which would reduce the output current to about 70 Amps in good sun, with moderate weather conditions. And could possibly have allowed using the preferred single string of batteries, plus being a bit more efficient at the same time.

If your contractor is Licensed to do this work, you might have some redress with the Contractor Licensing Authority in your state, or perhaps some County or City authority. If unlicensed, you might not have a lot of leverage with the contractor.

Good Luck, Vic

zoneblue · September 2015

I agree. You need another installer badly. Serious mistakes made all over the place. I really doubt youll get any useful further help from that guy, and you best cut yor losses and get a pro to fix it up. If you cant afford to do that, i guess you might try selling the system for parts, and starting again when you can afford it. But as others have said hybrid systems are only for people with deep pockets, who have a radical need for power security. For the rest of us mortals, grid tie can work pretty well if you have a good NEM or FIT.

Masterjoe · September 2015

I was listening, just trying to get as many different inputs as I can as this guy is adamant we only need one. Of course he is in California right now at a solar conference and won't be back until tomorrow. Having to go to a 48v system is going to require everything being redone. Something he may as well not bother with as I have no faith he knows what he is doing. I have spent most of my spare time learning and diving into the material here, on the internet and asking questions. It seems to me he is more interested in getting that next sale than he is fixing an i

softdown · September 2015

4500 watts on a 24 volt system? Your salesperson was an idiot. 187 amps into an 80 amp controller? Same thing. No lightning protection in Florida? Isn't that sort of a lightning capital?

Masterjoe · September 2015

Unfortunately I am stuck with him for the next 10 years. As my dad says it is good to get the bugs worked out now, it is too expensive to bail out. Piece mealing this system out to get lowball offers would just piss me off further. An expensive lesson learned.

zoneblue · September 2015

That may be as it may, but if you are going to do RE, you have to do it properly, else it is just going to be a continual drain on your finances and sanity. And possiblly safety. Seriously, i shudder to think how that thing is wired.

Bugs you say? You cant fix the kind of mistakes he made without a serious mindshift change. Vic and Soft have it bang on.

This is a grid interactive system, so you want to be harvesting every single photon, hence you need either 2 controllers, or, 48V. One or the other. And, in Florida, you typically need at least 4 SPDs, one on each end of the array home run, one each on the inverter AC in and AC out.

And you need to check out the net metering urgently. Somethings wonky as a boomerang there.

Masterjoe · September 2015

Now I see why my installer is so adamant about me only needing one charge controller. On the bottom of the back page of the contract he writes "Will take back 4024 inverter for free if upgraded to a 48v system within 2 years of installation". So installing it as a 24v system knowing it needs to be a 48v system with half an array that cannot be used so I pay him more money to upgrade to something I should have had in the beginning. WOW!!! What a salesman.

Masterjoe · September 2015

zoneblue said:

That may be as it may, but if you are going to do RE, you have to do it properly, else it is just going to be a continual drain on your finances and sanity. And possiblly safety. Seriously, i shudder to think how that thing is wired.

Bugs you say? You cant fix the kind of mistakes he made without a serious mindshift change. Vic and Soft have it bang on.

This is a grid interactive system, so you want to be harvesting every single photon, hence you need either 2 controllers, or, 48V. One or the other. And, in Florida, you typically need at least 4 SPDs, one on each end of the array home run, one each on the inverter AC in and AC out.

And you need to check out the net metering urgently. Somethings wonky as a boomerang there.

NO kidding zoneblue things have been wonky from the very beginning and I have only had the system for 1.5 months and i am back on the grid paying more than twice for my electric, my regular bill plus the loan.

zoneblue · September 2015

oh! your inverter is a schneider sw? thats whats going on then. the sw is a cheaper version of the venerable xw. however it only initially was offered as 24v. they plan to release the 48v version any day, and he's, like, waiting for it?

Masterjoe · September 2015

No it is the XW4024. What I think he wants me to do is upgrade what should have already been a 48v system, because as he stated before he doesn't make much money off a hybrid system. What better way than to charge someone for something they should have already had. That tells me he knows half my solar array is no good to me and is giving me 2 years to figure it out. But one question I have for him is if I did have a working 24v system why would I want to upgrade it to a 48v system?

zoneblue · September 2015

>"Will take back 4024 inverter for free if upgraded to a 48v system within 2 years of installation".

So, if i get this right hes offering a free upgrade to XW4048? Or he'll take the 4024 at retail, and sell you a 6048/6548? Im not really up on what the differences between the xantrex branded XW, and the Schneider branded XW, and cant really comment on the differences.

However the XW is generally considered a good inverter, and very capable for hybrid setups. Out of curiousity, having reread the thread, you dont appear to have a NEM agreement. Whats the reason? Is your power company uncooperative, or you just cant be bothered with the red tape? Without that you lose a lot of potential return on your investment. Backup mode becomes your defacto configuration.

If the system is running in a backup mode, ie batterys in float until power cut, then the second controller may not add all that much value to you. And really, for backup, you have a lot of money invested in the system, when a thousand dollar genset would have done the same job.

The real value in grid/hybrid systems is capitalising on what can be quite lucrative feed in tarrifs, tax breaks etc. That requires a net meter agreement, and the associated red tape. The third possible mode (arbitrage) is as others have said not ususally cost effective.

Masterjoe · September 2015

Yes, we do have a NEM agreement with our electric company and have a net meter installed. Haven't been able to get a hold of him yet, will have to try Monday. I am just wondering is it common practice to install a 24v system for someone and oversize it on purpose in the hopes of a 48v upgrade. Secondly if he is going to charge me to upgrade how much can I look forward to? I mean the system would have to be rewired all over again right?

MPPT 80 600 CC down

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