Jason's Off Grid Homestead in So. Cal. High Desert

jason714n · April 2015

[Note: I have split Jason's posts and answers into his own thread--Hopefully it will make things a bit less confusing as we discuss just his needs here. -Bill B.]

Hi, I'm doing a similar thing. I'm trying to setup a system for 4 RV. Still trying to fill in all the information and pieces.

So I have a deal with 3 other friends of mine to setup an off grid wind/solar backed up by a generator. So the system is roughly 15kwh for the 4 RV. Due to refrigerators, TVs, swamp coolers, heaters, power tools pumps. We Will split the cost evenly. Trying to do it as cheaply as possible for now.

I've decided to go with a 12 volts system since almost everything we use is 12 volts AC normal housing stuffs. So I'm thinking to save money we will go with the 12 volts deep cycle marine battery since they are so cheap to acquire for now. Not sure how many bAttery I'll need but if I see cheap ones for sale I'll just buy them slowly until I build up a good size battery bank. I'm aware they don't last as long as expensive ones. If I wasn't so low on budget I'll go with Trojan 12 v 110 amps ones.

As for charging I heard I can build wind turbine out of ametek motor that would save a ton of money. I love to build so this is my kind of thing but still a newbie. Looking to build like 6 1kw turbine. Also will go out and buy 6 500watts solar panels. Not exactly sure which kind yet. This system will be backed up by a 20kw auto start diesel generator. Probably a onan because I heard they are reliable and efficient. But right now I already have a 12kwh Honda gas generator hope it will do.

Now for the inverter and charge controller. I'm Not sure which inverter will do the trick since this is so much power. Do I get multiple inverter? Or just one that's this big? What about a charge controller that's good for this setup?

I'm a newbie so any comments or pointers is appreciated appreciated

jason714n · April 2015

I need a lot of power and it will only get larger. So I want to have a setup build to get bigger. So I'm thinking 15kwh 20 hours daily use.

I'm guessing there's one large charge controller would do? And how many 1400 watts inverter minimum would do? As for battery you are saying 24 volts is better because I need a huge storage? So I'm guessing I'll be searching for cheap 24 volts deep cycle marine battery for now?

BB. · April 2015

Oh boy--15kWH per day system is big (for most people). Is that what you are asking for?

15,000 WH / 20 hour per day = 750 Watt average load @ 20 hours per day???

Don't get too hung up on batteries just yet... They all start with 2 volt cells (for lead acid). And it is mix/match of series+parallel connections to build out the battery bank you want. Also, you can get very large batteries that way 1,000 to 2,000 lbs, or individual 2 volt cells that way 100-400 lbs each. Your ability to unload/move batteries/cells around may also modify your choice for a battery bank.

I need to better understand your loads and where (which high desert?) to pencil out a system that could supply those loads. Do your summer/winter power needs vary?

-Bill

jason714n · April 2015

Thanks for fast respond. Yes unfortunately that is my power demand daily. It's for 4 households. To be exact it's Barstow California. So whatever battery voltage I need I'll just get a lot of it and connect them in parallel right? 24 volts is what you are talking about for my setup. Does the amps have to be the same like the volts to connect into one battery bAnk?

wellbuilt · April 2015

Hi Jason thank for the reply.
You guys are looking for a lot of power , and I don't know about a 4 way split, people are funny that way .
I think you would be better off running 4 systems .
I know my wife and kids would not share well with others . I have 10 kids
I would rather just run out of power rather then use 15kw my self and leave my friends in the dark .
Im a builder but don't know much about solar power yet im just learning .

The guys here will help you get up to speed but there is no cheep system.
John

Photowhit · April 2015

Hi Jason, I think Bill will split you off into a new thread, if it can be done under the new software.

You need to understand electric and what you want to do before buying anything!

Questions;

"15kwh for the 4 RV." so your and 3 other RVs? for a total of 4? How did you determine the 15 Kwh use?

"We Will split the cost evenly." This rarely works out, When you go out do you split the check? is someone always short? Someone always chipping in more?

"12 volts system since almost everything we use is 12 volts AC" I know of ZERO 12volt AC applications, you can have 12 volt DC applications or 120 volt AC applications.

Wind can be a viable source of electric, but requires more maintenance, you want to have the tower well above any obstructions and have a reliable source of wind that is strong enough to be useful. Generally you must take the generators down once a year (or go up) for maintenance.

"12 volts deep cycle marine battery" These are NOT designed for good deep cycling in long term applications and actually cost about the same as the cheaper golf cart batteries. As Bill said lead acid batteries are strings of 2 volt cells, a 12 volt battery has 6 cells, a 6 volt has 3 cells. a 24 volt battery is made of 12 cells. Most small batteries are 6, 8 or 12 volts.
"I'll just buy them slowly " Batteries are best purchased and aged together.

" Also will go out and buy 6 500watts solar panels." While I suspect there are 500 watt panels out there for commercial use, I haven't seen any for the consumer market

My 4,000 watt array might provide 15 Kwh on the best days, if you're in the high desert some places might work with just a bit larger array, but you will also need a huge battery bank, much larger than mine.... Large systems with storage tend to work best with higher voltage storage, I really should have a 48 volt system...

I would really like to send you to our FAQ's...

jason714n · April 2015

We share the power and doesn't have to do a split. Whatever the cost of running generator is divided into 4. Doesn't matter who used more, close group of friends that's why. We don't mind running generator everyday, heard most people run generator every 3 days. Thanks

jason714n · April 2015

@photowhit
Sorry for my inexpensive in electricity. We have 2 3 ton Air conditioner we will install and that takes 6kwh each. It doesn't run all the time but sometimes both goes on. During winter there's a few heaters that's 1kwh along with so many households items I figure 15kwh will covers all including expansion.

I was talking about the Normal wall outlet we used at home for hair dryer or TV etc. I'm guessing it's 120 vac? Still learning electricity.

Our 80 acres is luckily located on top of a hill, I checked the average wind in that area and it's 13 mph. We set up a tent and was blown away that same day. Thought we could take advantage of having lots of turbine. 6 to start and maybe 15 if things works well.

As for the battery, maybe 12 volts high capacity golf carts battery would do? They are cheap and plentiful out there? We don't mind having to run generator often. Once a day is ok too. Thanks so much for the suggestion

Photowhit · April 2015

jason714n wrote: »

@photowhit
Sorry for my inexpensive in electricity. We have 2 3 ton Air conditioner we will install and that takes 6kwh each. It doesn't run all the time but sometimes both goes on. During winter there's a few heaters that's 1kwh along with so many households items I figure 15kwh will covers all including expansion.

I was talking about the Normal wall outlet we used at home for hair dryer or TV etc. I'm guessing it's 120 vac? Still learning electricity.

Our 80 acres is luckily located on top of a hill, I checked the average wind in that area and it's 13 mph. We set up a tent and was blown away that same day. Thought we could take advantage of having lots of turbine. 6 to start and maybe 15 if things works well.

As for the battery, maybe 12 volts high capacity golf carts battery would do? They are cheap and plentiful out there? We don't mind having to run generator often. Once a day is ok too. Thanks so much for the suggestion

6 volt golf cart batteries in series is what I was talking about...

...but 3ton A/C's will require so much more of a system that it's out of the ball park!

A 3 ton A/C will use roughly 3500 watts per hour it's running! to run one from a battery bank over night at 40% duty cycle(the amount of time they actually run on thermostat) So you're looking at 3500watt hours x 12 hours x .4 (40% run time)=16800 watt hours or 16.8 Kwhs FOR ONE! to give you an idea of how much energy in storage this would require my forklift battery holds about 15 Kwhs down to 20% state of charge. for a few reasons it would cut off before it ever got near there. (Reasons don't worry about understanding these now but batteries are rated (typically for no more than a 1/20th of capacity load the A/C would draw the battery down at about a 1/5th capacity load so load would reduce the available capacity quicker, also the inverter would use an additional 5-10% and the inverter would cut out from low voltage at the high draw rate to protect the batteries)

To run 2 A/C's of this nature would require a battery able to deliver 7500watts (with inverter) at a 1/20th of capacity. 7500watts = (7500÷48=)156 amps per hour(at 48 volts) so you would need a battery 20x that capacity or 3100 amps at 48 volts(156 x 20=) Closest I could find was 2 1600 amphour 48 volt batteries at $8000 and 3800lbs each.... Just letting you know which ball park you're playing in!

cupcake · April 2015

Do you actually LIVE in this desert, or is this more of a pipe-dream you and your pals have?

I live in the hi-desert so here are some tips:

1) you want way too much power for using the word 'cheap' in your post.
2) generators are a nuisance in the desert as sound travels far - be careful with the whole 'well go there and set up a big generator' plan, your crazy neighbor from miles away will call code on you, and yes, the guy WILL come out...
2) wind-generation is not practical in the desert UNLESS you are in verifiable high-wind zone... you will know this because the power-companies turbines will be all over the area... otherwise it goes from sporadic windy days, to days or weeks of perfectly still windless days..

These are some pointers - my system is LESS that one-killowatt fyi...

-- sweet dessert in a cup

jason714n · April 2015

Thanks for the reminder and pointers cupcake. We ride our ATV out there and are loving the life out there. Also I poker grinder so it's going to be way closer to where I play.

I figured living in LA is so expensive with the rent being $3000 plus with water, gas every month. We can do this setup and initial cost would be a lot but then we would save on all the bills we have every month. Not just in the desert but if it's not compatible we can go where's it's better for green energy and live.

Thanks for the reminder about the generator, there's not a lot of neighbors here but still don't want to bug any of them.

mike95490 · April 2015

Nope. Not going to work with a 12v or 24v system. Could be done with a 48V system, but you need to scrap the big air conditioners and look a mini-split systems that have less power demand.
But the big problem is going to be "the other 3 homes". They will cease to be problems when they also become the power plant engineers too, and understand the risk of depleting the batteries just to keep it cool inside while working out. You are watching the battery meter go down down down, and have shut all your stuff off, while 2 units over, someone is microwaving a cup of coffee.

You need to ditch the electric heaters, and use propane or other fuel. Not electric. Not for heating or cooking.

Wind Doubtfull it will be worth while, unless you have your own cherry picker to get to the top of the turbine to do monthly maintenance,

Generator is a required item, needs to be large enough to run 1/4 of your loads, and still be able to have enough left over to charge batteries too. I use about 8KWh daily, not pumping water or running tools, just 3 fridges and household gear. I've got 5Kw of PV (3Kw works in good weather, but winter and rain, even 5KW is not enough) and I run a 3KW generator about 2 hours a day to keep batteries charged in foul weather. My baseline load is about 150-250 watts. (water filters, lights, laptops, vent fan on range.)
So you really need to look at how to shave loads, and conserve, conserve conserve.

jason714n · April 2015

Hi guys, I was talking to one of my friend about the setup I'm planning to do and the cost of the 1600 amp/hour at $8000 each.

That's a hefty price tag for someone that's so new to this field. So he suggested that why won't I get10 1000 amp hydrolic truck battery so I can setup a similar system. hes in the trucking industry and can get me those $50 a piece. I know they will probably last less than a year but I can practice on them for the mean time. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks

Photowhit · April 2015

jason714n wrote: »

Hi guys, I was talking to one of my friend about the setup I'm planning to do and the cost of the 1600 amp/hour at $8000 each.

That's a hefty price tag for someone that's so new to this field. So he suggested that why won't I get10 1000 amp hydrolic truck battery so I can setup a similar system. hes in the trucking industry and can get me those $50 a piece. I know they will probably last less than a year but I can practice on them for the mean time. Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks

Again I don't know what hydrolic truck battery refers to, but I was quoting a fork lift/traction battery which might be what he's talking about? Forklift are not a bad choice, they have slightly different plate makeup than most lead acid batteries, requiring monthly equalizing and usually watering.

Mike touched on the point I was making earlier, you really have to have a good working relationship with the others in this adventure. If one is cooking on propane while someone else is blow drying their hair it could become unfriendly very quick.. I regularly cook with electric but don't run a full sized oven, Foreman grills are pretty energy efficient, microwave are fine for most things, crock pots work well toasters on a good sized system work, bread machines and even frugal use of a toaster oven, I usually only run mine when the sun's shining.

Might consider a dugout /earth contact home. the earth is cooler 5 feet down and can help with cooling and heating. Not for every one, might research Earthship.

cupcake · April 2015

jason714n wrote: »

Thanks for the reminder and pointers cupcake. We ride our ATV out there and are loving the life out there. Also I poker grinder so it's going to be way closer to where I play.

I figured living in LA is so expensive with the rent being $3000 plus with water, gas every month. We can do this setup and initial cost would be a lot but then we would save on all the bills we have every month. Not just in the desert but if it's not compatible we can go where's it's better for green energy and live.

Thanks for the reminder about the generator, there's not a lot of neighbors here but still don't want to bug any of them.

You'll know your neighbors as SOON as you fire up that generator... even the honda super-quiet ones are frowned upon...

Living in LA of course is a joke. As for living out here off-grid, it takes an ajustment as far as power goes...

If money is no object, then do whatever you want. But if your are looking to be 'cheap', then your electrical usage/lifestyle must also match that...

jason714n · April 2015

I was referring about semi truck commercial battery. 12v not sure of the holding capacity but cca is 1000 amps so I figured that's high enough for an Air conditioning unit. I'm also looking into earthship and ditch our RC since power is so limited when it comes to battery.

cupcake · April 2015

jason714n wrote: »

I was referring about semi truck commercial battery. 12v not sure of the holding capacity but cca is 1000 amps so I figured that's high enough for an Air conditioning unit. I'm also looking into earthship and ditch our RC since power is so limited when it comes to battery.

amp hours is what you need to know, not CCA's.

Question, where do you actually live now?

Hairfarm · April 2015

Hi jason714n,

Which part of the Hi-desert are you in? We're in Joshua Tree, Ca.

Good luck with your system.

zoneblue · April 2015

Mate, you are kinda in the water without knowing how to swim. In this business you have two choices. a) invest the time, research, learning, and cash to deisgn and build a safe, reliable off grid system. or b) lay the cash down and hire a profesional installer. The third choice is to spend money willy nilly on a system without a proper design, then wonder why it a) doenst work well, or b) burns your place down.

On the multi dwelling concept, the way we have found to make that work is to install check meters for each house so that theres some acountability. Either set limits for each house, or charge a fee for those that use more, and use the money to upgrade the gear. There can be some suprising cost economies in sharing services, especially in the design and maintenance areas. You can get reasonably cheap DIN rail check meters for around $50 ea.

cupcake · April 2015

Hairfarm wrote: »

Hi jason714n,

Which part of the Hi-desert are you in? We're in Joshua Tree, Ca.

Good luck with your system.

I'm in 29
Cheers neighbor!

-cakes

cupcake · April 2015

zoneblue wrote: »

Mate, you are kinda in the water without knowing how to swim. In this business you have two choices. a) invest the time, research, learning, and cash to deisgn and build a safe, reliable off grid system. or b) lay the cash down and hire a profesional installer. The third choice is to spend money willy nilly on a system without a proper design, then wonder why it a) doenst work well, or b) burns your place down.

On the multi dwelling concept, the way we have found to make that work is to install check meters for each house so that theres some acountability. Either set limits for each house, or charge a fee for those that use more, and use the money to upgrade the gear. There can be some suprising cost economies in sharing services, especially in the design and maintenance areas. You can get reasonably cheap DIN rail check meters for around $50 ea.

Interesting post -- can you post a link to these 'check meters' you speak of, as I think the terminiology might be different here in Amerikkka...

thanxxx

--CC

BB. · April 2015

I am guessing something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Meter-100A-Volt-3-Wire/dp/B00GMZRXE8

The above is ~$110 USD. Similar meters are on EBay for $30 or less (be careful, many of them I found are 230 VAC @ 50 Hz units, not 120/240 VAC 60 Hz split phase used in North America).

-Bill

jason714n · April 2015

Thanks for the great info guys. I'm near Victorville so nice to meet u cupcake. Well I got harbor freight system to play around with. Bought a 35amps hybrid charge controller to switch in and also an 30 volts ametek motor to do a turbine. Just going to play with this starter kit for a few months and run our 12kw Honda gas generator for now.

Learned so much joining this forum! Conservation is key!! But I will set a until for 4 dwelling, just needs to do a few months or year of research and also cut back on usage like everyone recommend.

BB. · April 2015

Just to get an idea of what the costs are like... Use ~$1.00 per kWH for electricity costs. Typical homes use:

30 kWH per month (1 kWH per day--Lights, small water pump, laptop, small fan, etc.)
100 kWH per month (3.3 kWH per day--cabin/very efficient off grid home with fridge, lights, well pump, washing machine, laptop, etc.).
300 kWH per month (very efficient grid connected home with natural gas/propane for heating/cooking/hot water)
1,000 kWH per month (average north American home is around 600-1,000 kWH per month with lots of electric appliances)
3,000 kWH per month (very hot/cold areas with large A/C & Heat Pump loads, electric hot water, etc.)

Your actual kWH price of power may range from below $0.50 to as high as $2.00 per kWH--Lots of chances to sharpen pencils and doing cost/benefit spread sheets.

And remember, you are paying ~1/2 the 20 year life cost up front... Plus planned and unplanned repairs/"oops"/etc.).

-Bill

Alaska Man · April 2015

3 Ton A.C.'s !?!?!? No way........ Not unless your a Rockefeller. I would be thinking about Underground or In-Ground housing. Takes the A.C. out of the comfort equation.

jeffkruse · April 2015

jason714n wrote: »

I was referring about semi truck commercial battery. 12v not sure of the holding capacity but cca is 1000 amps so I figured that's high enough for an Air conditioning unit. I'm also looking into earthship and ditch our RC since power is so limited when it comes to battery.

No, no, no, this kind of battery won't work.

CALLD · April 2015

BB. wrote: »

Just to get an idea of what the costs are like... Use ~$1.00 per kWH for electricity costs. Typical homes use:
30 kWH per month (1 kWH per day--Lights, small water pump, laptop, small fan, etc.)

100 kWH per month (3.3 kWH per day--cabin/very efficient off grid home with fridge, lights, well pump, washing machine, laptop, etc.).

300 kWH per month (very efficient grid connected home with natural gas/propane for heating/cooking/hot water)

1,000 kWH per month (average north American home is around 600-1,000 kWH per month with lots of electric appliances)

3,000 kWH per month (very hot/cold areas with large A/C & Heat Pump loads, electric hot water, etc.)

Your actual kWH price of power may range from below $0.50 to as high as $2.00 per kWH--Lots of chances to sharpen pencils and doing cost/benefit spread sheets.

And remember, you are paying ~1/2 the 20 year life cost up front... Plus planned and unplanned repairs/"oops"/etc.).

-Bill

Those are great examples of typical usage profiles - although it also illustrates just how little one could actually live off if one tried. I use 1000kwh/month in summer when I need the AC, 600kwh/month in winter. My water is heated by electricity. Solar provides 25% in summer and 15% in winter. I could survive totally off solar in summer if I forgoe all "luxury" appliances.

These extremely high figures like 3000kwh/month+ are easily believable in extreme climates - I probably used more than that in Libyan Summer of 2010 when I had 4 AC's running 24/7 to keep my large 3 bed house cool enough to bare with 45°C plus heat outside that didn't drop much below 35°C at night. Oh yes, and a regular B&B guesthouse can easily consume 5000kwh/month...

BB. · April 2015

Depending on what is already on the property and the schedules...

Perhaps, a staged developement would be a good idea.

1. Build a very small ~1kWH per day system (lights at night, computer, cell phone charger, small water pump, etc.) for each home during construction.
2. Use rental/appropriate sized generators for each construction site (perhaps two gensets, small eu2000i for light loads-power lights/radio/battery chargers for tools during day, and a 3.5-5kWatt for heavy tools when needed).
3. As homes come online--Buy or rent a "full size" diesel genset and setup some kWH meters to each home--Log daily (or usage several times per day) for 1+ months and see what the actual loads would be. Obviously, if you have summer A/C loads--Vs low winter loads, you may have to do several tests or make some tests (i.e., run A/C and heat at the same time or on a hot spring day) and see.
4. Design a system(s) that meets the loads. You probably will want to do several paper designs. Then cost them out and compare their capabilities against needs/budget/etc.

-Bill

solar_dave · April 2015

CALLD wrote: »

Those are great examples of typical usage profiles - although it also illustrates just how little one could actually live off if one tried. I use 1000kwh/month in summer when I need the AC, 600kwh/month in winter. My water is heated by electricity. Solar provides 25% in summer and 15% in winter. I could survive totally off solar in summer if I forgoe all "luxury" appliances.

These extremely high figures like 3000kwh/month+ are easily believable in extreme climates - I probably used more than that in Libyan Summer of 2010 when I had 4 AC's running 24/7 to keep my large 3 bed house cool enough to bare with 45°C plus heat outside that didn't drop much below 35°C at night. Oh yes, and a regular B&B guesthouse can easily consume 5000kwh/month...

Yep my 2500 sq ft house in phoenix has two 3 ton AC and a 3 ton mini split with 3 zones on the garage/workshop/office and my peak day last summer was 131 kWh. My grid tie will produce 71 kWh on an excellent day but in the heating season only makes about 62-65 kWh per day. Thank goodness for net metering, I already have well over a megawatt in the bank for this year.

cupcake · April 2015

solar_dave wrote: »

Yep my 2500 sq ft house in phoenix has two 3 ton AC and a 3 ton mini split with 3 zones on the garage/workshop/office and my peak day last summer was 131 kWh. My grid tie will produce 71 kWh on an excellent day but in the heating season only makes about 62-65 kWh per day. Thank goodness for net metering, I already have well over a megawatt in the bank for this year.

71kw?

What is the point of solar then? The grid is cheaper, more reliable and easier. Especially at this 71kw level.

Im @ 900watts. No bills, NO DEBT, nothing owed.

Some times this solar stuff reminds me of when the Toyota Prius came out. To become 'gas free' pay for a vehicle that cost TWICE as much as its traditional counterpart. Then wait a few years and yep, all that 'technology' is obsolete (don't see to many first gen Priuses ont he road now do ya..?)

I can only imagine the fallout in a few years when these residential mega-systems start failing... I can hear it now: "BUT THEY PROMISED ME FREE ENERGY!!!" "NOOOOOO!!!!"

Free energy for the masses is a pipe-dream.

Conservation + commonsense = the workaround the the above reality

- Sweet Cakes

BB. · April 2015

His system is Grid Tied--So it is as reliable as the grid.

And power pricing is highly regional and political... Over ~1,000 kWH per month in Northern California, we pay upwards of $0.33 (flat rate) to $0.53 (summer peak) per kWH...

Grid Tied is probably around $0.15 or less per kWH these days.

-Bill

Jason's Off Grid Homestead in So. Cal. High Desert

Comments

Categories